When did zinc fumes become deadly?

Stan in Oly, WA

Well-known Member
Welding galvanized metal without removing the zinc, and the zinc fumes which resulted, used to be considered a potential source of possible flu like symptoms which might last as long as overnight. Now, frequently I see warnings that suggest that it is in the same category as plutonium dust, ebola virus, or insulting a mafia chieftain. When did it become so deadly?

I've spent hours putting a 6013 texture on 1-1/2" galvanized pipe in a 4' X 5' welding booth with an exhaust system that was no more than adequate. My protective strategy was to keep my head out of the plume. I never felt so much as queasy, much less flu-ish. If this trend continues, we'll soon be required to call in a haz-mat team whenever a piece of galvanized metal is reported on a job site---much the way asbestos is currently (and absurdly) treated.

I do notice that the dire warnings about zinc fumes never originate with individuals whose previous postings have made it clear that they are the most experienced weldors. I suspect that this (exaggerated) information comes from people who are delighted to know one grave thing---the same people who love to warn about the 1/7 withdraw rate for acetylene tanks without having any idea how to calculate it, or even what it actually means.

Stan
 
Possibly like a lot of other things, it affects some people and not others. I weld very little galvanize as it makes me sick. 30 year's ago the guy at local welding shop refused to cut or weld galvanize. It caused him breathing problems. He died of lung cancer 15 or 20 years later, so not the healthiest thing to do.
 
See how bad it is, Stan, it even killed the guy who refused to cut it or weld it! :twisted:
 
Breathing any kind of metal fumes is bad as the metals build up in your body over time. Need to always have good ventilation.
 
From welding galvanized metal you can get fume fever. With fume fever you can get a fever that rarely exceeding 102 degrees. They may also have chills,nausea,dryness of throat,cough and fatigue. The victim may sweat profusely for a few hours till body temp comes down. Fume fever rarely last more than 24 hours. When ever my dad and I welded galvanize we always welded it outdoors never in a building ( gives off a lot of smoke).
 
Seems to me there was a really strong link to parkinson's disease or something similar outside of plain metal fume fever.

I know I get a really bad headache if I weld it, I only mess with it outdoors or file it off first.
 
I started welding galvanized wind mill angle iron when in high school and have welded galvanized pipe off and on up until now and will be welding galvanized pipe to make gates as soon as it warms up a bit. Might be just me but I have never notices any effect while or after welding galvanized metal. I am almost 75 now and if I should die some time in my 90's you will know that welding galvanized metal is what caused my early demise.
 
i got into them once years ago trying to make a welded repair never heard they were bad, but man they were! i was puking for 2 days, dizzy and disoriented, never again, i learned my lesson
 
George,

For several years now, that specific case (Jim Wilson killed by zinc fume fever) is brought out to demonstrate the deadliness of welding galvanized metal. Digging a little deeper, it becomes less clear that it's as dangerous to the average person. It might be more accurate to say "if you're a heavy smoker with COPD, heart disease, diabetes, and high blood pressure, welding galvanized metal might be hazardous to your health." If it's so dangerous, why is the proof of it always that same story where it killed a man who was already very sick? But hey, maybe it's incredibly dangerous. Several years ago, my 60 year old wife wasn't allowed to board a plane until she had transferred the contents of a bottle of shampoo into two small plastic bags. If that's dangerous then I would have to agree that everything is.

Stan
 
Kind of reminds me of the comic who was making fun of all the fitness and health food folks- "Those guys are not going to be happy when they're in their 80's, laying around dying of nothing."
 
I worked in a welding shop for nearly 4 years welding galvineel sheet metal into service bodies, and another year doing maintenance in a hot dip galvanizing plant repairing the racks they hung the metal on. During those years I know I breathed in my share of zinc fumes, and then some, and have never been sick from it. About the only thing I ever had a problem with was coming home at night sometimes and blowing black snot out the firstgt time I blew my nose. Even then it was no more than if I had been running a carbon arc all day.

Wrong or right I look at it like this. Old George Burns drank and smoked cigars for ALOT of years and finally died in his 90's. My Grandma never smoked or drank and she died in her mid 70's. Granted I don't condone stepping in front of a bus and trying to get to the head of the line to die, but the way I see it man is appointed a time to be born and a time to die. When your time comes it's "your time", wether you go quietly in your sleep or kicking and screaming , it really isn't our choice..........
 
My dad got very sick using a spot welder on galvanized sheet metal. I do all my galvanized welding outside and up wind.
 
As with any heavy metal absorbed by the body it is a time weighted average absorption. you can inhale a high concentration for a short time or a low concentration for a longer time. there are OSHA standards for every heavy metal and also for carbon monoxide and other gasses.
Just use common sense and try to limit your exposure
 
This is an excelent antidote. A quart of milk will fix ya right up. I've used that treatment myself.
 
Never have had a problem with the fumes off galvanized material.

The big thing a few years back here was the hexavalent chromium terror. It would devastate all that dared breathe it. I was tested, and failed. That was the end of it. I guess the cost of mitigating that hazard wasn't worth it.

One thing we have nailed down is brake parts cleaner. Welding within 50 feet of that stuff produces a smell I can't describe. I will chew the galvanizing off grating before I strike an arc anywhere near where brake cleaner was used.
 
Only took getting fumes one time for me and that was enough. I still see that yellow puff heading my way.
 
An electric arc that burns brake parts cleaner (just the residue on metal cleaned with it is enough) produces phosgene gas, one of the most toxic poison gases used in WWI. Supposedly, a single whiff of it is enough to do irreversible damage to a person's kidneys and liver. Just because I think that the danger of zinc fumes is commonly exaggerated, that doesn't mean I don't believe anything is dangerous.

Stan
 
Stan I used to be like you and not worry too much about it. Then about ten years ago I was helping install a Detroit diesel in where a gas engine had been. The Detroit needed two top radiator out lets. So we used a hole saw on the tank. I them needed to braze a 2 inch nipple into the tank. I did not have any black iron ones only had galvanized nipples. So I heat the galvanized nipple up and brushed the shinny zinc off of it. I then brazed the nipple into the radiator.

That night in bed I woke up unable to catch my breath. Was only able to take very shallow breaths. Passed out trying to walk down the steps. My wife called the life squad and they rushed me to the hospital. They put me on oxygen and even then my blood oxygen levels where supper low. I was in the hospital for four days. My lungs still are not as good as they where before that. The Doctor told me it was all caused by the zinc/galvanized fumes.

So I will still weld/cut galvanized metal but only with a fan and or air supply mask. Doc told me if I got another dose like that one I would be pushing dirt.
 
I do remember the term phosgene being associated with brake parts cleaner now that you mention it. I could be led to believe a concentrated whiff of the stuff could do damage. It's an awful smell.

This stuff affects everyone differently. It's like getting shocked. Some people are really sensitive to it, and others rarely feel a thing.
 
I have a friend who refuses to weld or cut galvanized metal.I get a sick feeling from a small amount of zinc fumes.Ive read that a zinc penny ingested will kill a pup or kitten.I have found them with a zinc penny in their mouths.Bullet casting should be done outdoors.Lead fumes will stop your clock.
 
Thanks for posting that link.Too many posters on this forum think the can take chances while working and get away with it.We have much better info on work hazards than we had years ago.I used carbon tet in radio service work.We now know that a small exposure to carbon tet can cause liver damage.Brake cleaner is dangerous around welding.I got some acetone on my hands while spraying a mix of oil and acetone.I spent 3 days with poor balance.Hardeners used in paints are deadly poison yet we see constant reference to using it while painting tractors.Boat builders become sensitized to solvents used on their work and many have to give up the work.Each exposure get worse.
 
In the interest of keeping welders safe and healthy when welding or brazing galvanized steel, please see the American Welding Society (AWS) Safety and Health Sheet for Metal Fume Fever, specifically zinc oxide

www.aws.org/technical/facts/FACT-25.pdf
 
(quoted from post at 07:39:04 03/27/13) .......We now know that a small exposure to carbon tet can cause liver damage.........

I remember Carbon tet being the cleaner of choice when I was a kid. I had an aunt who was a clean freak and used carbon tet like water to clean her upholstery and other household items. .... She died of liver cancer in her mid-50's.

I'm a little guilty myself of sometimes using lacquer thinner on a rag without using gloves. Trying to be more conscious as I get older of hazardous practices but old habits die hard.
 
Key words are (acute allergic condition)

Some are allergic to many things and some none.
With all governments safety regulations they tend to want everyone to think that every one is allergic to everything. How ever take peanuts.

They are more quickly deadly if you are allergic.
 
When did asbestos become deadly? When they discovered just how bad it really was. Some people don"t seem to be affected by it, others are severly affected by it. I know of a man who years ago who was putting up siding containing asbestos. Every few days his wife would clean his coveralls. Dead within 6 months of him starting the job. No other health problems. I imagine they didn"t use to know exactly what zinc did, and just knew the usual symptoms, but when they actually discovered what it was doing to your lungs, they started posting warnings about it, mainly for insurance reasons. I"ve welded galvanized metal, and even trying my best to keep my head out of the way, I end up with a headache and very crappy feeling. The stuff is bad news, use some caution when welding it.
 
(quoted from post at 04:44:05 03/27/13) In the interest of keeping welders safe and healthy when welding or brazing galvanized steel, please see the American Welding Society (AWS) Safety and Health Sheet for Metal Fume Fever, specifically zinc oxide

www.aws.org/technical/facts/FACT-25.pdf

Is there any problem in spot welding galvanized sheet metal? I do some, and never thought of it being a problem.
 
It's human nature to think that because it hasn't happened to you or anyone you know personally, that it can't/won't/doesn't happen.

You're squawking about this welding galvanized thing like it's some sort of overblown hoax, but the second you, or someone close to you, develops a sensitivity to it you'll be the biggest advocate for banning galvanized the world has ever seen.

Yeah, different things affect different people different ways. Some react violently and some don't react at all. Chancing it just to see how you'll react is not much different from playing Russian Roulette.

You wouldn't put a loaded gun to your head and pull the trigger, so why would you strike an arc on a galvanized pipe and breathe deeply?
 
The chemical that produces phosgene gas is carbon tetrachloride and that is when its burned . Thats the reason why you can't buy or refill a carbon tetrachloride fire extinguisher. Carbon tetrachloride will neutralize gasoline. My dad used it when repairing gas tanks. He would drain gas tank and shoot tank with carbon tetrachloride and than welded or brazed tank. He always did it outside and on a day with a go breeze to carry fumes away.
 
If you are allergic to is sure it would be. Then it becomes how allergic you would be. A slight reaction or a major reaction. The same as any other allergy.

It slays me to hear the lead poison warnings from paint. You know if it was as bad as some want you to think everyone over the age of 40 would have lead poison as all paints had lead at one time. Every painted house inside and out was painted with lead paint.

My Mom is almost 97 living alone and if she dies in the next twenty years I will have to sue the paint people because of lead in the paint.

The facts are that you can not put all people in the same category because all people are not made from or with the same stuff.

Some people are allergic to alcohol but you will not hear the same crys for the banning of beer and whiskey. I would guess that many more get sick from beer and die than galvanize.
 
This isn't an alergic reaction as such tho... it's a mild poisioning. It is a rather acute reaction tho.

Rod
 
I have always found that I get sick, quickly from breathing zinc oxide fumes. Very quickly. One whiff is enough to just about make me puke. It's a mild poisioning! I get similar reactions when working with certain sprays like MCPA Amine 500 and to some extent 2-4D.
I don't take chances with zinc anymore. If I have to weld galvanized metal I grind or wire wheel the coating off as best I can and weld at arms length in a cross wind.
Granted some may be less sensitive than I am, it's still going to get you eventually if you breath enough of it.

Rod
 
So over the years that I have been exposed and had no sign of any reactions means what?

I don't say not to worry about or not to be careful and to ignore any funny feelings when welding or anything else you are doing.

A flat warning that everyone is gonna die if, is over the line. In I got sick so eveyone else is.
Just doesn't fly over this bird.
 
[size=9:bb39bb191a][i:bb39bb191a]Is there any problem in spot welding galvanized sheet metal? I do some, and never thought of it being a problem.[/i:bb39bb191a][/size:bb39bb191a][/quote]

For welding processes where little if any visible fume or particulate is being generated, the health hazard is minimal in a general open shop environment. We have had welders wear fume collection monitors with no measurable health hazard when the work is covered by fume collection or they are not working with a heavy smoke generating process such as flux-core or stick welding. If the yellow greenish fumes can be seen or that distinctive metallic taste/smell is apparent, then the level of exposure needs to be limited.

Spot welding with good ventilation would not be considered a significant problem unless a person is required to perform the operation in a closed chamber without cross flow ventilation. If both you and the spot welding are in a non-ventilated location, get a fan going to provide fresh air. Spot welding is still welding and even though small, there are zinc oxide fumes being produced.

Some union contracts used to require a milk break every 1/2 hour or so when welding or cutting galvanized steel. Incidentally, the milk soothes an irritated gut lining, but does nothing to solve the inhaled zinc oxide fume. So, if you can't be outside when cutting up the old galvanized water tank, then wait till you can. As mentioned by others, some people have a low tolerance and others higher, however, in all cases, zinc oxide fumes will catch up with prolonged exposure.

I used to downplay welding safety issues but as I get older I see the results of not taking care as we all knew we really should. All the science and data collection in the world is of no value when ignored.

In trying to improve welder safety and so they have the opportunity for a long retirement, we furnish our welders with all the standard safety items, gloves, helmets, coats, face shields ect., and if they so choose, the latest $1,400 clean air welding helmets and I don't have the least problem with it.
 
No, probably not. What line of work were you in where you had prolonged exposure to asbestos? How severe is the condition? Is it totally incapacitating, or severely limiting, or does it allow you some normal activity with limits? Forgive me for prying, if that's what I'm doing, but I'm interested and I don't know anything about it. I hope you're all right, or mostly so.

Stan
 
I made a mistaken assumption based on generalizing my own experience with galvanized metal too much. I did think the warnings about zinc fumes were exaggerated, and that people who made a big deal about it were alarmists. I've been set straight about that.

In response to your non-exaggerated statement that I'll become the "biggest advocate for banning galvanized the world has ever seen" if I develop a sensitivity to it, I'll mention that I've developed a severe sensitivity to fiber glass insulation in the course of using it for decades, and I haven't even stopped using it, much less called for it to be banned. I'm just a lot more careful about the amount of protective gear I use now when I work with it. Actually, there's not much in the world I'm in favor of banning---not even hyperbole, so you're off the hook.

Stan
 
Stan my exposure goes back to service days when i'd wake with dust on my bunk then I worked heavy maintence in a chemical plant for 35 yrs. now i'm on air 24 hours a day
 
Sorry, Pete. That's a terrible price to pay for just doing your job.

I never intended to minimize the severity of asbestosis as a condition. It's been my understanding that the only people to contract the condition have been asbestos miners, asbestos insulation factory workers and installers, and those such as yourself who experienced prolonged exposure to asbestos in industry. Of course, I understand that there are always a few extremely unfortunate individuals who develop any condition from minimal exposure, but statistically asbestosis is a condition almost entirely restricted to those subject to prolonged, heavy exposure.

Do I think people should learn what precautions to take when dealing with limited amounts of asbestos, and then take those precautions? Of course. Do I think a homeowner should call the EPA when he or she learns that the ductwork of their old heating system is covered with non-deteriorating asbestos? Well, I wouldn't.

An incident I read about years ago suggests how hysterical the subject of asbestos has become. When the LA County coroner was performing the autopsy on Natalie Wood after she drowned, he noted that a life jacket she was wearing (or maybe should have been wearing--I don't remember which) contained a material similar to asbestos, about which he stated, "this was very bad." I had trouble understanding how much harm it could do her at that point, but that was his position.

I hope you still enjoy your life. Days above ground are generally better than the other kind, in my experience.

Stan
 
It means that you're less sensitive to that particular poisoning... It doesn't mean that it's not building up in you system or that it's not causing you harm... just that it hasn't hit you yet. If you've heard of the LD50 rating of chemicals... you know that it's the dose that will kill 50% of the test population when exposed. You're just among the other 50% but there is a dose for you too...

Rod
 
Good information for sure and as an employer myself if I was hiring welders I would feel and do the same as you. An employer has no way of knowing how sensitive an employee"s system is to any of the elements in a work place and all precautions needs to be taken.

When I weld for myself it is my rear in the sling not an employee"s that I am responsible for.
 
I don't know if phosgene gas comes from carbon tet or not but I know it comes from dry cleaning fuid called perk (perchol someting or other). I used Brakleen to clean aluminum before mig welding until they took the perk out of it. Took a lot of label reading before I could find it again in another product.
 
Carbon Tetrachloride was been used in dry cleaning and if it comes in contact with fire it forms phosgene gas. If you look up Carbon Tetrachlorde and phogene gas you can get the whole story about it.
 
I remember my Dad and Uncle welding on an old galvanized pressure tank down in an old well house back in the early 60's, both got sick enough to have to go to the hospital, back then they called it "galvanized poisining", I have welded galvanized metal but only with plenty of ventilation. Milk does help if you breath in some of the fumes, I usually set up a fan to blow the fumes away from me when I have to do it. Gives you a real nasty taste in your mouth, headaches and nausea.
 

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