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Electric fencer woes

B

bc

Well-known Member
Well my 2 electric fencers are now on the blink. My Zareba 100 miler quit again. It still snaps but doesn't put out any voltage. Seems like the voltage declined over time. It dropped down to a 1000 volts for a couple weeks before it finally quit putting out anything. I sent it in last year for an $80 repair and now I'm about there again. TSC offered to knock off 20% if I want to replace it with a new one.

The other one, I can't read the full name but it says it is a Super Charger solid state model 909, quit snapping and putting out voltage. It was reading about 9000 volts last week.

Guess I'll pull them apart tomorrow and look for something wrong.

Does anyone know of some type of light I can put on the fence wire to verify it is on? Guess it would have to handle high voltage and go on and off all the time. Had a horse get out yesterday. They seem to know when it works and when it doesn't. We seem to have trouble with deer running through the fence, knocking down the wires, and grounded them out. Thanks.
 
I have have done charger repair for over 50 years and get a good laugh at do it yer self repair attempts.I charge extra when a charger has been messed with because owners make some patch jobs that connect the ac line to metal charger cases.I never plug them in until Ive checked them over.There is a light you can put on the fence but I find it easy to dial 1 on the telephone and listen for one second clicks.Your 909 is probably an old International with a plug in solid state module that costs big bucks.I have 2 5 gal pails of lightning damaged trans formers under the bench..
 
Most electric fence suppliers make a light that pulses with fence pulse that can be mounted any where on the fence and seen from a distance.

Get rid of the Zareba chargers, they are junk, my electric fence systems never worked right years ago when I was using he TSC brand stuff. Buy a good brand name charger with warrenty and good idea to buy from a local supplier who can fix the components on the spot.
 
BC
I've got 30 years in the fence construction business and have used most brands out there. I have come to the conclusion that Parker-McCroy gives the best bang for the buck. They used to supply the most frequently damaged components but only sell us the circuit boards, transformers, and other main components now. The components are reasonably priced. They are plenty powerful for most applications. I have even used them for small deer fence applications with good results.
For fence indicator lights go to Kencove Fence and look around.
Good luck,
Andy
 
I've had good luck with the Parmak 6 volt solar and the 12 volt car battery powered ones. The 12 volt are about 75 bucks on line and are cheaper to replave than fix (for me anyway). Never had to fix any though and some are 10+ years old.

Dave
 
Zareba chargers have the transformer glued to the circuit board.If lightning gets the tranformer you have to replace the whole works.output transformers are a common replacement item on chargers.I have a customer who comes in once a year for a 5.00 repair.The newer chargers cost a lot more to repair.
 
Parker-McCroy, where do you find those? Never heard of them before. I am looking at getting another fencer for a 128 acre piece I am gonna run 2 strands of perimeter high tensile, what you recommend? - About 18000 feet of wire.
 
I'll check around for lights. The ones I saw at TSC for $26 and Kencove for $20 plus shipping were the same one. Uses a watch battery and only lights when the fence is not charging ASSUMING the battery in the light is good. Don't care to trust a battery.

I was just hoping that one of our electrical experts could come up with some light, led, or other setup that would light up and take the voltage. Maybe stick some resistors in front of a light to reduce the voltage down. I could hook them to the fence in conspicious places. Something a lot cheaper than $26 a pop.

I found an old 6 volt charger out in the barn. One battery clamp was missing and the other must have laid in the mud or something as it was about rusted through. Don't know if it will work and not sure how to test it. I hooked a 12 volt charger to it but got nothing. After pricing fence charger batteries at over $30 a piece and then hope they last a year, not sure I want to buy batteries all the time. Could try a 6 volt tractor battery that would be rechargeable but I need to test it first.

With those BLM mustangs and burros I have, I'm not sure I'd trust anything under 6000 volts and prefer over 10,000.Between brome and tall weeds, its been a losing proposition keeping the fence lines clear.

One got out on Friday. Went about a mile and crossed the state highway to a neighbors. I rode him back home. Not a electric fence issue as I believe I left the walk in gate unchained when I trimmed hooves on Thanksgiving. It has a catch and he must have leaned on it and opened it after a week. I double checked the fence and found none would charge though. Have them in the round pen for now.

Thanks so far.
 
If the Zareba snaps but has no output,either the output lightening guard is shorted or the output transformer is open. Try it without the lightening guard connected. If still no output, there is a chance the transformer can be repaired. Remove the case and follow the output wire into the transformer, making sure its not burned open. If ok, break the plastic cover from the transformer and look for the end of the burned wire. If you can locate where the good windings starts up again, unwind a turn and reconnected to output.
It would take basic electronic know to repair the circut in the other charger.
 
Thanks. Gotta dig around to find the right torx head driver to get the Zareba open. It snapped with and without the lightning guard.

The other one is an International electric Super charger model 909. Made in 1972 in Minneapolis. Googled and found a Canadian test on it. Put out 5040 volts at 1.8 amps on a long wire. I had it open. Not much in there but a few resistors, 1 big capacitor, the transformer, and a few other parts I suspect are capacitors. I have voltage coming in but no voltage going to the transformer or out of it. The transformer is an old waxed brown paper wrapped job with a blue ceramic deal on one end. Looks old but not necessarily burnt out. Anyway there is no voltage across the two leads going in or coming out. It has a big orange capacitor under the board which seems like the next logical problem once I figure out how to check it.
 
5040 volts at 1.8 amps would kill every thing that touched the wire.Better read that again.Have your charger fixed by some who knows what they are doing.
 
Thanks 36. Here is the report I found. Maybe you can make heads or tails of it. The report is dated 1981 but inside my case it was stamped 10-72.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/eng3060/$FILE/257.pdf
909 super charger evaluation
 
sounds like you have some electronics knowledge. On the 909: trace the cord and check for for 120 volt AC at the circuit input. If AC is not there, check the wiring and fuse path. If it has AC, than check for 150 volt DC across the big capacitor. If no DC, the rectifier is probably bad. The early models used a crud globe rectifier labeled "EDAL". The later models used a diode rectifier.
google "checking diode" There is also a chance one of the 150 or 180 ohm resistor is open, but they usually look bad when bad.
If you have 150 DC than next check output SCR and its protection diode and the transformer input winding for an open. Measure the resistance across the 2 bigger transformer wires; should be around 1 ohm.
google "checking SCR"
If the SCR, diode and windings are good, the next suspect is the diac.
 
Thanks. I took a radio/TV repair course before I ETS'd from the army. But I'm a little rusty at it. Part of a training program cause they were dumping a bunch of vietnam vets on the unemployment line and nobody was hiring infantryman. Nobody was hiring radio tv repairman either. I applied for one tv repair job about a year after I got out. The owner asked me to draw a block diagram of a TV. Something I'd done in class but not for over a year and had no warning to study. Couldn't remember 1 or 2 of the tv parts and he was looking for someone with experience anyway which I didn't have.

I've got 117 vac voltage coming in on the 909. It splits off on an old brown circuit board. It's not printed but has a wire rail soldered down on both sides going towards the transformer and coming from the two plug in wires energizing the circuit. Has 2 or 3 resistors going between the rails and a couple other pots at the end before the transformer that I don't recognize. The big capacitor is underneath and comes off one side and ties in at one of the terminals going to the transformer.

Now that I think about it, I was checking for current flow with the meter on AC and never switched to DC. Guess I'll try that tonight. I was kinda thinking I had to remove resistors and capacitors from the circuit to test them for function but if they are open then a current flow test would show if they may be allright. Guess I can try some freeze spray on everything if I still have some left.

Resistors looked ok and the capacitor did as well with no bulges or burnt out spots. Just some brown wax around part of the transformer didn't look so good.

I've replaced diodes before but nothing looked like a 4 diode rectifier but there were those couple pots I didn't recognize and the blue ceramic looking piece sticking out from the transformer that was wired directly to the positive and ground on the front of the can. Those pots weren't very big though.

When it worked it had a muffled and not so sharp snap and I could barely hear it. (not like the loud Zareba). When it quit, it didn't snap at all. Pushing the red reset button didn't help either where those copper tabs were. Now I'm wondering what is supposed to make the snap noise.

It definitely had some power when it worked as it would arc over to wire within an inch of a hot wire. I had a couple of those oval shaped yellow plastic insulators at a corner post that wire tie back to the post and it would arc through the insulator to the wire. I replaced them with a different type. At night you could here the zap and see the spark a hundred yards away.

Still trying to rig up some type of indicator light I can hang on the wire in places and see it flash at night.

If there was a fence charger repair shop around, I'd take them in but fence charger repairman are apparently rare in this country.
 
good,so you have the AC coming in. next check for 150 DC volts across the big capacitor.
one line of the input feeds the 180 ohm resistor and then on to the negative of big capacitor. The other side of the line goes to second 180 ohm then though a single diode and then to the positive side of the big capacitor. They are 180 ohm, aren't they? brown,gray,brown
the pot is used to adjust the rate of clicks. I have only seen one used in the circuit. Are you sure the other one is a pot and not the SCR. Some of them use a metal can SCR that is held in a spring clip.
The blue thing on the transformer is a high voltage capacitor used to tune the output ringing.

the snapping sound is produced each time the SCR is turned on, dumping the capacitor charge into the transformer winding
 
Thanks. I pulled the Zareba apart and found a burnt wire between the two middle windings of the transformer on the transformer module. One winding showed a burnt spot. I cut away the plastic and managed to pull the windings out enough to wire them together. Still didn't work. Snapped but no voltage output showing on my digital Zareba tester assuming it still works.

Probably more burnt wires at the melted looking spot. As soon as I can find something strong and thin enough to push down past the magnet to free the wire from the winding, I'll pull some off till I get good clean wire and try it again. If it works, I'll solder them.

If nothing else, I'll look for an internet supplier of the transformer module. Zarebas must be bad cause I noticed Orscheln is carrying replacement modules but they didn't have the one for my 100 miler. The module is an American Farmworks model # 01479-92. Do you know of a source?
 
I started on the International 909. Not sure I trust my old archerkit analog meter so I'll have to find my digital one.

I believe I have 150 plus dcv across the big capacitor but when it put it on a 1000 it doesn't read anythng. It burys the needle on the 150 dcv range. When I put the ohm meter across the leads it shows 5 or 5K ohms one way and nothing when I reverse the leads.

Looks like it has 150 ohn resistors, brown-green-brown-gray but they seem ok. Ohm meter gets a reading on them.

Not sure about the EDAL rectifier diode. No reading from ohm meter with leads switched back and forth. But with the unit powered up I get ac voltage from the other ac input over past the rectifier. Guess I want to try a different meter.

The blue-grey-yellow-gold 680K ohm resister just past the diode doesn't seem to make the needle move either way but it looks ok.

The scr can in the spring clip shows resistance when I check it as well as the little part attached. The scr then goes to one side of the transformer

The transformer inputs seem to have 2.5 ohm or 2.5K ohm (I think the meter reads in K ohms)across them. Same for the output and ground. Get no reading between the inputs and the output or ground.

There is is Sprague 400 capacitor that goes from the big capacitor input over to the other rail where it ties into that 680K ohm resistor which then attaches to the big capacitor outlet before going over to the other transformer lead. When I check it with the ohm meter, it deflects very slightly one way and then the other when I switch the leads. Might be the meter but sometimes I check it and get no deflection either way.

When I get my digital meter, I'll try all this again unless you have some other input.

Do you know what the round ceramic and metal/magnet deal is that both main ac power leads go to on the side of the board? Has a bolt and nut through them and goes to the case ground.

Fence charger 101. So far it appears to me that there are two sides to a fence charger. The power input and scr side and the transformer and output side. Basically the same way the Zareba is laid out with two boards(the transformer board and the board with all the diodes, resistors, capacitors, and SCRs). With my Zareba the SCR (looks like it has 4 of them) is snapping but no output so the transformer is bad. With the 909, the SCR isn't snapping so the problem is probably not the transformer.

Thanks so far.
 
Go to the Mfg.49.00 plus 9.00 shipping.I dont let Zareba chargers in my shop now.Same modules fit 9 or 10 models.If you had a Parmak you could buy a new output transformer for 25 bucks.Ive put 2 in my Parmak in 15 years.
 
6 volt parmak Solar will do it.12 volt is better but the cost is high 280 bucks last time I looked.Parmak has a 12v charger that runs on an auto battery.Can you run a fence wire to the back field?Solar chargers are good for pastures across the road otherwise I wouldnt use one.The batteries in them are high priced and short lived.
 
WARNING! WARNING! for anyone reading these post. Fence charger repair should only be attempted by persons with electrical/electronic training. One side of the 120 volt line is directly connected to the circuitry. Knowledgeable repairers don't work on mental work benches that could be grounded or cement floors
I once saw a person get stuck to a 120 volt line by his own muscle contractions.. He though he was yelling "pull me off" but he sounded like a cow mooing. Apparently, he had a low body electrical resistance so the 120 could hold him and would have killed him if the line had not been turned off.
The old green Bulldozer fencers were a lot safer to work on because they had isolation vower transformers.

For the 909:
I start out measuring voltages before I switch to resistance to finalize the diagnoses. Yea ,have to make sure you have the 150 volts DC first. The $4 Harbour Freight meters work ok for this use. The Edal rectifiers were not very good. I replace them with modern 1N4007 diodes. When the factory made this production change, they also changed the 150 ohm resistors to 180 ohms.
The transformer input winding measures low, about 1 ohm. The output winding measure about 315 ohms.
You can unhook the transformer to make sure you are not measuring though another part. With transformer unhooked, you can also unclip the SCR and check its protection diode.
That smaller capacitor should charge up to about 30 volts DC, than the diac (small orange glass or black half cylinder part) discharges the 30 volt into the short leg of the SCR. Then the SCR does the heavy job of dumping the 150 volt capacitor charge into the transformer. This cycle repeats about every second. The 30 volts will keep increases if the diac is bad and not dumping it into the SCR.
The ceramic/plate device is the lightening arrestor for the input power.
Sounds like you're figuring things out.
Also,with an open input winding, the SCR can't dump the capacitor charge into the open winding so there won't be any click. And a bad diac won't trigger the scr, so again you won't get the clicks.

on the zarebe, maybe just the output board with the 3 big SCRs was replaced during your last repair. If I remember right, they cost about $30.
You can try connecting one probe of the ohm meter to the ground output and then touch/scratch the ends of wire/burned area, trying to get a reading to find the start of the good winding. To splice/solder the transformer wires, you have to remove the insulating varnish. I use fine sandpaper or scrape some off with a knife.
Sometimes you can slide a Q-tip though the end and it will push the wire end out. Might have to break some of the blue tinted plastic off.
for a simple spark checker, use a spark plug with jumper wires connected to it. clip to output terminals. Or you can just short across the output terminals with an insulated screwdriver.
 
Thanks for the ideas; I've finally learned after going thru a couple of Zarebas. Their 6 volts just don't stand up very long.
 

http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=1&mscssid=VKPKUJAQX99P8MX62S0J99BU509MC8R5

I've got 3 of these and 5 of the 6 volt solars. The car battery ones are the foolproof and, if your fence is insulated good and somewhat clean, a battery will last 3 or 4 months between charges.

Dave
 
Parmak has a 12v charger that runs on a car battery,costs about 85 bucks.A good battery will last 4 months.Dont use a junk battery that wont start your tractor.Dont put the battery where cows can lick it.
 
Zareba update: The burnt wire going to the third winding went all the way to the bottom of the winding. Couldn't come up with that loose end and decided it wasn't worth it to pull off the entire winding to get to it.

After scraping off the varnish on the two adjacent winding wires plus the one from the burnt winding, I twisted them together.

I'm now getting 2800 volts without the third winding which will work for a while in this snow till I order a new transformer module unless I get the 909 fixed first. Zareba wants 38.86 plus shipping for it.

Has me wondering if a larger transformer would help me? Probably don't need any extra voltage cause I suppose you don't want too much but wondering.

Word of warning to anyone attempting a Zareba repair along with those already provided. Ground the outputs from the capacitor and scr module to the input of the transformer on the transformer module to discharge the capacitors.

909 update: Ran partial tests with unit unplugged and the diode and resistor both read as open. The resistors going to the test lamp appear to read open as well but the test lamp isn't a necessity. Those other two input resitors read 161 & 169 ohms. The resistor to the scr reads 62 ohms.

With transformer isolated, I have a 416 ohm reading from ground to transformer output. A 1/open reading from any of the inputs to ground or the output. I have continuity between the two input leads.

I'll check the rest tonight. I know I can get resistors at radidio shack but will anything else such as the diode or transformer have to come from online? That charger is really a simple design. For want of a dozen parts, I could build one from scratch.

Found the old 6 volt TSC brand Stocky Model # 36-400B in the barn. One battery clamp was gone and one laid in the mud so long it was rusted. Don't have any 6 volt batteries around except for a flashlight and it wouldn't work. Afraid to try a 12v car battery unless someone says its ok. Don't want to buy a $32 battery either unless I would know it would work. Guess I'd be fence charger rich if I ended up with 3 working chargers. Thanks so far.
 
yes , I should have mentioned to discharge the the big zabere capacitor by shorting across its terminals before working on on the fence charger. Did it get you? Kinda like discharging the picture tube in the old TVs..

sounds like the 909 transformer is ok. The 150-160 DC volts should not be there if the edal rectifier is bad. The edals are made out of selenium and don't check like a modern silicon diode.
any voltage across the smaller capacitor(is it a 50 or 20 mfd?)
 
Thanks again. No, didn't get zapped, just surprised. Stuck the zareba transformer in where the 2 wires from the other module were hanging over the divider and one touched the transformer input. I shorted between those leads and tried it again later after a test run and it zapped again when touching that lead. No problem removing or installing the terminals though.

909 latest:

The smaller capacitor is a Sprague 400, 20-50 dc, 7230L. First test showed a 30 with it rising to 50. Later tests always read a solid 27 or 28.

Went to radio shack and no 680 resistors. Bought a pack of five 330 ohm 1/2 watt. They don't have any selection and I think 1/2 watt seems a little light compared to what is there. Looked for a 1N4007 diode and couldn't find one. They looked in the computer and said one was in a mixed pack of 25 diodes for $3. Would need an electron microscope to get the readings off those things.

After I got done shoveling snow, fixing water leaks, and unfreezing pipes, I put two 330 ohm resistors in series across the 680 that doesn't give an ohm reading (just stays at 1). Plugged it in and the 150 ohm resistor on the AC side began smoking. Noticed I still had the transformer isolated. Reattached that and plugged it in again and this time the 150 ohm resistor on the DC side began smoking and it was making a fast buzzing/whistling moise. Unpluged it and removed the 330 resistors.

Checked voltages again and noticed 27 steady volts up to the diac but no voltage past the orange diac. Unplugged and checked continuity and resistance on everything. SCR and protection diode seems to check out (not shorted or open anyway). The resistors I smoked read 171 and 164 so they seem ok.

I'm down to the orange diac didn't show any continuity and the 680 ohm resistor. These must be the culprits. Now how do I identify and obtain the right parts? Thanks for any help.
 
Here is a picture of the inside.
p50174.jpg
 
you said the 680 ohm resistor is open? also blue,gray black is 68 ohm
does the diac measure almost a short? An ohm meter can't fully test a diac; it can only see a good diac as an open. Double check your meter once in a while by touching the leads together; It should measure 0 or close to 0. With the leads separated it should measure open or a 1 to the left as some meters indicate it.
I am thinking the resistor is open and diac is shorted. When you bypassed the resistor, you turned on the SCR and kept it on too long, thereby overheating the resistors. Normally the SCR is very briefly turned on by the diac.
If not, then maybe the capacitor is leaky and never able to charge up to the 32 volts required by the diac.

what number is the SCR?
 
Hi again. We are getting close.

The SCR if I can read the number right is a 3922 and below that it says PS48 (then I believe) -1 then a CG.

The resistor is a blue-gray-yellow-gold which I initially called a 680K (6 & 8 & 10K modifier) which I guess is a 680,000 ohm resistor. When I bought those 330's I forgot about the thousands. I have no idea what the wattage rating is.

Digital meter doesn't show any change from (1) on the resistor and diac with leads tried both ways. However, the analog meter will show a hair jump when I check both of them separately and when I reverse the leads it has the same hair jumps in the opposite direction.

I put my zareba digital tester on the output and ground and plugged it in. When I short across both sides of that resistor with pliers, I can fire the scr and get 8800 volts. Every time I touch across the resistor, it fires. That suggests to me that the diac is ok unless shorting across the resistor bypasses the diac.

Guess I'll either have to hire a kid to sit there and short across it every second for 24/7 or else replace some parts.

Might be the resistor (680,000 ohm sounds awful high but I don't know) or you may be right about that smaller capacitor that still only puts out 27 vdc reading for negative to positive. Measuring from the capacitor negative up to the diac, it reads 27 vdc but nothing when I check past the diac. So I can't rule out the diac being shorted except for the small needle jump with the analog multimeter. Or maybe bypassing the resistor allows the 27 volt capacitor to trigger the diac and scr?

What do you think and where can I get the parts?

I went to Mauser the other day just looking at diacs and it seems like they wanted me to buy a reel of 5000.

Thanks.
 
hi 36 coupe
thanks for reminding me about the diac voltage. Can you tell me the rating on those metal can SCRs or do you know the industry or NTE number?
were they rated 10 amps and 400 volts?
 
I use 25 amp 800v scr on most repairs,If you can trigger the scr manually its ok.In a 1972 charger I would replace the charge capacitor.It may have lost capacity.Take a good look at the RC network that feeds the diac.The small electrolytic capacitor may be shot.Some scr can self trigger and run fast but you dont have that problem.
 
Guess it's time to buy parts. Can any of you guys bundle them up and sell them to me? I left my email open. Can pay any way you want. Or point me to your suppliers if you don't stock that stuff.

Guess it would be nice to have a parts list. My chargers have never gone out in the spring and summer during lightning season but usually in the winter. So I guess I should be prepared for the next time as well. Probably going to be a regular occurance.

Sounds like I should replace the 680K resistor, the small electrolytic capacitor, the large charge capacitor, the diac, and just as well change the two 150 input resistors with 180 ohm resistors and the old diode with a 1N0007.

After I got another close look at the diac, noticed that it had a little brown gunk run out on the wire on both sides of it for a quarter inch. Either I didn't notice it before or it happened when I jumped those resistors across the 680K one.

Looks like the only things not being replaced are the transformer, scr, and the resistor (19 ohm, brown, white, black, silver) and protection diode that feed into the scr. Also I've ignored the light and push button circuit breaker circuit which has a few 470K ohm (yellow, violet, yellow, gold) resistors and some behind plastic tubing.

Thanks for all you help so far.
 
Lightning is active 12 months of the year.I had a customer that saw the lightning strike his fence jan 1.He mailed it to me, the transformer was ripped open from lightning.You are at the point where you need the fencer repaired by some one who knows what they are doing.I had a fencer like yours struck 3 times in one week.50 cent diode each time.
 
Zareba is not a TSC brand.American Farm Works bought out several fence charger companies.They used the model numbers but used Farm works internals.Very few parts are available for the old chargers now.The new models of Parmak are very expensive to repair.I dont stock any Zareba parts now.I wont let them into the shop now.Not worth the trouble.
 
OK 36, you win. Let me know your address. I'm not looking for a freebie, I'm just the ultimate DIYer. That's all. I'll send whatever cash you want. I know you'll be fair.

Went down to the electronics supply on Thursday. They had about everything on the main board except the 32 volt diac and the scr which would have to be ordered. He couldn't trace a transformer or that little 500 pf/20kw output capacitor for RF if one was necessary.

The best we could come up with for the little Sprague 400/20-50vdc capacitor was a 470uf/50vdc. I went ahead and replaced the little cap and the 680K resistor. Then it would only fire once every 10 seconds. Then I went ahead and replaced the large cap(with a 100uf/250vdc), and the diode and input resistors. Still only fires once every 10 seconds and doesn't seem to put out a great amount of voltage from the transformer. Still reads about 27 volts across the little cap and maybe 180 across the big one.

The only things not replaced on the main board was the diac, the scr, and the 39 ohm resistor and protection diode for the scr.

If I don't ship the outer box, it might fit in a priorty mail type box. I suppose the post office may be easier than UPS.

Thanks.
 
hay!!! You are reading the capacitor size wrong. the smaller one is 20 mfd, 50 volts . the larger is 100 mfd ,200 volts.
The other number on the capacitor are the series numbers Sprague used.
I think the main problem to begin with was that the smaller capacitor was leaky.
 
You went way oversize on C2. . C2 has to be charged to around 30 volts to trigger the diac. Check the diagram. You can see that with your much bigger C2, R4 takes a lot longer to ' fill" C2 and then trigger the diac.


2s6lrbq.jpg



I think with the right C2, the fencer will work ok.

Sounds like the diac is triggering so its ok. Here are some diac sources for completeness:
http://www.ceitron.com/semi/semi.phtml?part=1s2093
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=92367
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=90699
 

Thanks mmidlam. Nice schematic. The latest is that I was ready to give up and send it off but I don't know where to send the rustbucket to. On Tuesday I was down in Wichita and went to a long time electronics store.

The first guy at the shop in Hutch looked at that C2 cap and said it was a 400 uf with variable 20 to 50 volts dc. With no 400 made, he suggested bumping it up to 470 uf which caused the 10 second delay. The second guy at ICT just glanced at the original cap (buy probably relied upon my 400 uf representation) and said 470 was too high and taking too long to charge and sold me a 330 uf to speed it up.

The second guy also sold me a NTE6408 diac he had in stock which was a 32vdc. He said if it was firing the transformer at all, then the diac and SCR would be good but I bought one anyway. He also had in stock a can scr like mine, a NTE5515, which matched the one I had (PS48) 20 amp & 400v but I didn't buy it for $10. The first guy suggested replacing it with a NTE5516 which was 20 amp & 600v. If I had my druthers, I'd get the new style and place it on a heat sink.

I saw your post today about the C2 and the diagram. Went to radio shack and no 20 uf cap. I stuck the old sprague 400 back in and get what I had before, 27vdc across C2 and 160vdc across C1 which was the same reading as the 470uf cap. It would fire the sprague when I shorted across R4. Next trip to Hutch or ICT I'll get the 20 uf 50vdc cap. I suppose I could experiment with the 330uf or lower cap and go with a lower R4 but probably not worth the trouble or expense.

The first guy identified D1 which you called a protection diode as a NTE580 3amp & 600v general purpose fast recovery/switching silicon diode and sold me one. I see those are used in TV low voltage power supplies and can check ok but under load may not put out enough volts. I assume that it is OK though. Would this D1 diode change it from a half wave rectified circuit to a full wave, I wonder?

The first guy couldn't find anything on the NI-98-C TRA 1374 transformer. Neither could the second guy but he identified it as a flyback transformer and said to try some surplus electronics stores. Googled flyback transformer and learned it is a basic HV transformer used in TVs and monitors with a CRT (picture tube) and fires off of pulsating dc. Also the basic transformer used in things like Tesla coils, a basic high school lab experiment to produce big sparks. Apparently the fence charger is nothing more than a modified tesla coil. Guess I'll look around for an old tv transformer or something similar that will put out 10K to 15K vdc.

The C3 blue output capacitor is marked CRL RF 105-501 500pf 20Kvdc. First guy said they run about a hundred bucks but he thought it just smoothed the output but was mainly to stop RF interference which may not be a problem way out in the barn so not needed. Second guy called it a door knob cap and thought it was needed to smooth and control the output. What's your opinion? Guess when I get it working, I can bypass it and see what happens.

This 909 had a fused plugin with two 1 amp fuses. It was all corroded so I cut it off. Are there any replacements for that style plugin? Neither guy said they could order it

Neither guy could get that style of lightning arrestor but the first guy said they just use a ceramic cap nowadays for that. He showed me one but I didn't get the size. Orange about the size of a dime. (he could have called it a 330uf or something but don't quote me) Both guys told me to get some type of extra surge suppresion plug in strip because the rural electric companies have lots of spikes. Probably my main issue and not lightning. Read that on a website as well.

Your R1 and NE-2 are optional but what would be the value of R1? I guess from its location that this would be a constant on light and not one that pulses with the scr.

Also on my test circuit, there are two resistors (I'd have to remove the plastic tubing to see them) in series going to one side of the test switch and going from there to two 470K resistors to one side of the the lamp. There is a a 470K resistor from one side of the lamp to the other. Then a straight wire going from the other side of the lamp to the other side of the switch. It appears the first side of the lamp is grounded to the case as well.

I still have to call Zareba next week. I see they list International as one of their brands on their literature now. Maybe they can locate a transformer and output cap. Main reason is that I bought one of their 9.9kv digital testers and it keeps shocking me through the case. Gotta be defective somewhere. Gonna have to get rubber gloves to use it.

Thanks for everything so far. Guess I'll keep plugging away here.
 
I would mention about the cap series being the size to the guy if I saw him again. Maybe he might give you a break on some prices if you mention it caused you some trouble. I just happen to know 400 meant series, I could find nothing on the web. Looks like Vishay bought Sprague. They have newer series :
http://intefarad.com/Electrolytic Capacitors/Axial Leaded/axialelectroselectionmatrix.html


NTE supplies replacement parts. They really are just a relabeler and resaler of industry standard numbered parts. I use them because its convenient but they are costly. Type in the industry number at their site and they will cross it over to their NTE number. Try crossing your diode number to verify what you were told.

http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm

I buy surplus parts when I can . I think this SCR would work ok, but I have not tried one. Also I have never seen a heat sink needed for fence energizers SCR. Notice your Zebera doesn't use heat sinks on the output SCR. I have not tried to run this number though NTE cross reference.

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/ccp78618-scr-25a-600v--to-220-2n6508-8843.htm

The newer models use 1N4005 for both diodes. They cross to a NTE125. I use 1N4007 for the little extra voltage limit. The NTE580 diode would be a upgrade to a NTE125 but I don't think its really needed.

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=85357


I think your transformer is ok. I am not aware of any good sub for them. Car ignition coils are often tried but the fence will be shorted out by weeds a lot easier. The output resistance on a car coil is a lot higher. A flyback is also a poor sub. You want the output resistance to be lower to resist shorting out by weeds. The low impedance (think resistance) Zabera output resistance is only 10 ohms.

Don't know about the output cap. I never needed to replaced one.

Check a farm store , like TSC, for a new plug.

I think the guy was talking about MOVs to you. The newer models use a MOV in place of the lightening arrestors. I often add a 130 volt MOV to the circuit after R2 and R3. That reminds me, I need to buy a bag of MOVs on ebay. The higher the joule rating, the better.

Don't know size of R1 .The Bullozer brand use two 100k ohms resistors in place of one R1


Do you realize you now know more about fence energizers than anyone in your area. I can see you having a hobby/ job repairing energizers.
 
(quoted from post at 00:02:05 12/25/09)
Thanks mmidlam. Nice schematic. The latest is that I was ready to give up and send it off but I don't know where to send the rustbucket to. On Tuesday I was down in Wichita and went to a long time electronics store.

The first guy at the shop in Hutch looked at that C2 cap and said it was a 400 uf with variable 20 to 50 volts dc. With no 400 made, he suggested bumping it up to 470 uf which caused the 10 second delay. The second guy at ICT just glanced at the original cap (buy probably relied upon my 400 uf representation) and said 470 was too high and taking too long to charge and sold me a 330 uf to speed it up.

The second guy also sold me a NTE6408 diac he had in stock which was a 32vdc. He said if it was firing the transformer at all, then the diac and SCR would be good but I bought one anyway. He also had in stock a can scr like mine, a NTE5515, which matched the one I had (PS48) 20 amp & 400v but I didn't buy it for $10. The first guy suggested replacing it with a NTE5516 which was 20 amp & 600v. If I had my druthers, I'd get the new style and place it on a heat sink.

I saw your post today about the C2 and the diagram. Went to radio shack and no 20 uf cap. I stuck the old sprague 400 back in and get what I had before, 27vdc across C2 and 160vdc across C1 which was the same reading as the 470uf cap. It would fire the sprague when I shorted across R4. Next trip to Hutch or ICT I'll get the 20 uf 50vdc cap. I suppose I could experiment with the 330uf or lower cap and go with a lower R4 but probably not worth the trouble or expense.

The first guy identified D1 which you called a protection diode as a NTE580 3amp & 600v general purpose fast recovery/switching silicon diode and sold me one. I see those are used in TV low voltage power supplies and can check ok but under load may not put out enough volts. I assume that it is OK though. Would this D1 diode change it from a half wave rectified circuit to a full wave, I wonder?

The first guy couldn't find anything on the NI-98-C TRA 1374 transformer. Neither could the second guy but he identified it as a flyback transformer and said to try some surplus electronics stores. Googled flyback transformer and learned it is a basic HV transformer used in TVs and monitors with a CRT (picture tube) and fires off of pulsating dc. Also the basic transformer used in things like Tesla coils, a basic high school lab experiment to produce big sparks. Apparently the fence charger is nothing more than a modified tesla coil. Guess I'll look around for an old tv transformer or something similar that will put out 10K to 15K vdc.

The C3 blue output capacitor is marked CRL RF 105-501 500pf 20Kvdc. First guy said they run about a hundred bucks but he thought it just smoothed the output but was mainly to stop RF interference which may not be a problem way out in the barn so not needed. Second guy called it a door knob cap and thought it was needed to smooth and control the output. What's your opinion? Guess when I get it working, I can bypass it and see what happens.

This 909 had a fused plugin with two 1 amp fuses. It was all corroded so I cut it off. Are there any replacements for that style plugin? Neither guy said they could order it

Neither guy could get that style of lightning arrestor but the first guy said they just use a ceramic cap nowadays for that. He showed me one but I didn't get the size. Orange about the size of a dime. (he could have called it a 330uf or something but don't quote me) Both guys told me to get some type of extra surge suppresion plug in strip because the rural electric companies have lots of spikes. Probably my main issue and not lightning. Read that on a website as well.

Your R1 and NE-2 are optional but what would be the value of R1? I guess from its location that this would be a constant on light and not one that pulses with the scr.

Also on my test circuit, there are two resistors (I'd have to remove the plastic tubing to see them) in series going to one side of the test switch and going from there to two 470K resistors to one side of the the lamp. There is a a 470K resistor from one side of the lamp to the other. Then a straight wire going from the other side of the lamp to the other side of the switch. It appears the first side of the lamp is grounded to the case as well.

I still have to call Zareba next week. I see they list International as one of their brands on their literature now. Maybe they can locate a transformer and output cap. Main reason is that I bought one of their 9.9kv digital testers and it keeps shocking me through the case. Gotta be defective somewhere. Gonna have to get rubber gloves to use it.

Thanks for everything so far. Guess I'll keep plugging away here.
Click to expand...

I typed up the following reply from what showed and the "Classic" Board, and then decided to check "Modern" and I see it appears your problem as been solved ("Brainic" you talked to reversed voltage can capacitance ratings of the C2 capacitor).

So, just to be a nuisance, I'll post the already-typed reply here:

A few random thoughts...

That fencer circuit is a simple "relaxation oscillator" and with the power supply parts (R2 and R3, the rectifier diode, D1 and the capacitor C1 functioning the triac should repeatedly "fire", even if the pulse transformer is "bad".





Did you say the triac WAS being "fired" at 10 second intervals with the 470 uf capacitor?

If so, when it fires, is there any output from the pulse transformer?

You mention 27 Volts across C1. The one diac (trigger diode) you mention is rated at 32 Volts.

A diac that triggers at 32 Volts ain't gonna trigger at 27 Volts.

Have you had C2 tested for leakage? That's PROBABLY why the R4 resistor can't charge it to the voltage needed to trigger the Diac.

Your "Brainiac" guessed it was a "400 uf with variable 20 to 50 Volts DC.

Well, guess what, 'lytics AIN'T rated that way. It's a 20 to 50 uf, 400 VOLT capacitor, in line with the 20 uf unit in mmidlam's schematic.

DigiKey will sell you a 20 uf capacitor rated at either 50 Volts (schematic) or 400 Volts (rating of old unit).

Toss a 20 uf 'lytic in there and tweak the value of R$ 'til you get the desired one pulse per second, THEN see what's coming out of the pulse transformer.

If needed, DigiKey will sell you a 500pf 20Kv capacitor for about $56.00. There's a guy on ebay selling 10 (good?) used ones for $19.99.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relaxation_oscillator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relaxation_oscillator
 
That fencer circuit is a simple "relaxation oscillator" and with the power supply parts (R2 and R3, the rectifier diode, D1 and the capacitor C1 functioning the triac should repeatedly "fire", even if the pulse transformer is "bad".
Click to expand...

If the transformer input winding is open (bad), the SCR (triac?)won't be able to fire or you won't notice it firing. I am not sure which is the most accurate way to say it.
 
Maybe they can locate a transformer and output cap
Click to expand...


I don't see any reason to replace so many parts. C2 appears to be the only problem to start with. You could use two 10 mfd 50 volt capacitors in parallel to replace the one 20 mfd.
 
Well, guess what, 'lytics AIN'T rated that way. It's a 20 to 50 uf, 400 VOLT
capacitor, in line with the 20 uf unit in mmidlam's schematic
Click to expand...


no,no,no

C2 is rated at 20 mfd, 50 volts.

The 400 designates the series number( thank model), not voltage. The main C1 capacitor, that gets the line voltage, is only rated at 200 volts so why have a 400 volt rating for capacitor C2 when it shouldn't see voltage much over 32 volts? C2 is rated 50 volts because it won't see over 32 volts.

Around 20 mfd is the standard size in this type of circuit for the difference makes of fencers. Bulldozer used 25 mfd, 50 volts.

The newer models use a Sprague capacitor that is marked much clearer. "400 20UF-50VDC" is printed on them.
 
(quoted from post at 06:25:50 12/25/09)
Well, guess what, 'lytics AIN'T rated that way. It's a 20 to 50 uf, 400 VOLT
capacitor, in line with the 20 uf unit in mmidlam's schematic
Click to expand...


no,no,no

C2 is rated at 20 mfd, 50 volts.

The 400 designates the series number( thank model), not voltage. The main C1 capacitor, that gets the line voltage, is only rated at 200 volts so why have a 400 volt rating for capacitor C2 when it shouldn't see voltage much over 32 volts? C2 is rated 50 volts because it won't see over 32 volts.

Around 20 mfd is the standard size in this type of circuit for the difference makes of fencers. Bulldozer used 25 mfd, 50 volts.

The newer models use a Sprague capacitor that is marked much clearer. "400 20UF-50VDC" is printed on them.
Click to expand...

Looked at the website. Apparently they won't fix an old rust bucket like mine.

I was out of town on the weekend and finally got to it tonight. Ended up getting 2 10uf & 50vdc caps at radidio shack. Put them in in parallel and it started firing like normal. Guess I replaced the other stuff for nothing. Don't know how much voltage but it sparks good and the zaps are loud.

My zareba tester was shocking me through the case before it quit and Zareba give me a return number so I can send it back.

I'll post back on the other threads for archive purposes.

Thanks for your help. I'd still like to find a comparable transformer. Anyway, I'll hook up this international fencer and pull the Zareba 100 miler down and tinker with it a little. I'll put together a parts list and we can see what is available.
 
Guess I'll switch to modern view and stay with this thread.

Ran the voltages just now before I button it up. Big cap bounced around between 100 to 140 vdc. Little cap(s) bounced between 25 to 27 vdc. I've been measuring with leads on both side of the caps while the circuit is energized. Don't know if there is a better way.

I noticed Zareba on their website says most fencers charge at about 50 zaps a minute. Timed mine which seemed kinda rapid and got 90 zaps a minute. Don't remember if this is faster than what it did before or not. Noticed that with the test leads of the multimeter across the little cap, it slowed down a little.

I'll get an output reading after I get that zareba tester fixed. The zapping noise is much louder now than before as it was barely audible before it quit. Back then it would max out the 9900 volt digital tester. It is probably not as loud as the Zareba 100 miler when it is firing which is fairly loud but the zareba is a low impedence fencer and the Int. 909 is solid state.
 
The classic view has become all chopped up on this thread. Each reply seems to try and start a new thread. Modern view looks ok.

Are you using a digital or analog meter to measure the voltage swing? I think the old analog meters give a better indication of whats going on in a changing -circuit.
An old dried out 100 UF capacitor won't produce as much output spark. The measured capacitance might be only 40 UF.
 
Can someone provide a picture of the insides of the A50LIL
Lightning burnt some of the wires and I am not sure exactly where I should connect them up again.
thanks
 
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