Author	[Modern View]
ldj 03-01-2013 11:54:41 68.88.96.186 Report to Moderator	Just got a cheap welding kit. It works good with cutting tip and the welding tips. With the rosebud when I shut off the gas I get a real bad pop and the thing is hot between the tip and the handle. What might the problem be? [Reply]   [No Email]
JOB 03-03-2013 03:31:18 173.84.197.203 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 11:54:41   Most oxygen/ acetylene heating and welding tips are equal pressure tips. Yes rosebuds also but not all. Here is a link to Smiths catalog you have to scroll down quite a ways and there is a page that gives pressure settings for their different rosebuds. Different manufactures might have different ideas. They also mention to use high flow flash back protectors when using rosebud. Untitled URL Link [Reply]  [No Email]
Stick welding 03-03-2013 13:01:22 96.53.210.246 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to JOB, 03-03-2013 03:31:18   A lot of times with a rosebud you use higher oxygen pressure to help cool the tip but since you're not melting the steel, you don't need to equalize the rosebud. As far as flashback arrestors, I've read(Esab I think) where it says to not use check valves when using a rosebud because they restrict the flow of gas to the tip. Flashback arrestors also have a check valve. In school and on the job never had anyone say to shut the oxygen off first. [Reply]  [No Email]
JOB 03-03-2013 17:15:12 173.84.196.47 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Stick welding, 03-03-2013 13:01:22   Mr. Stick, Argue with the people at Smith. Maybe you can teach them something. [Reply]  [No Email]
Stick welding 03-03-2013 21:58:19 96.53.210.246 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to JOB, 03-03-2013 17:15:12   We had Smith equipment at the trade school I went to and all the Smith safety posters as well. When you have an acetylene manifold and students with no experience, you don't take safety for granted. Teacher was very experienced and even in technical school with a couple dozen experienced welders, none of them taught us to shut the acetylene off last. I've never read a manual for any torch that tells you how to properly equalize a tip for welding either. They all tell you to set the gauges the same yet the most accurate way doesn't rely on the gauges at all. I guess they don't want to tell you their gauges aren't accurate. [Reply]  [No Email]
Puddles 03-03-2013 17:34:58 24.113.77.208 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to JOB, 03-03-2013 17:15:12   Couple good videos. Even they don't agree! :lol: http://youtu.be/AOYQEg9SXoA http://youtu.be/f2amO0T3vkQ [Reply]  [No Email]
JOB 03-04-2013 04:33:17 74.36.133.31 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Puddles, 03-03-2013 17:34:58   Puddles, The first video is the procedure that I use. That is procedure that Smith recommended back in the early 70's for O/A . Somewhere along the way the oxygen valve was recommended to be shut off first with acetylene. I asked why, and the reply was everything is a fuel, even the copper tip. So if the copper tip is hot enough and you shut off the acetylene first the oxygen can cause the tip to burn and start a fire. I DO NOT AGREE with what I just repeated. My experience with O/A is if the cutting tip is too hot it will pop and go out it will not stay lit. Never had a problem with a heating/welding tip. A couple of times in a paint booth I was cutting out return saddles for the conveyor chain, the tip got so hot it would not stay lit so I cooled the tip by putting the torch head in the water of the flood sheets. All the way up to within 1/8 inch of the flame. The torch was not adjusted improperly, that conveyor is covered with paint over spray so you have the torch in a fire as you are cutting. And yes the fire does get bigger and is put out with water before it gets too big to work in. The second video you posted is for propane. I have zero propane experience so do not know if there is a special procedure, different from O/A for light up and shut down. I did learn something from the Smith video though. Here is a picture of one of the paint booths I have worked in. One of the sprayers in the manual section. Most of the booth is automated. I could not get the picture to post. I need another lesson. [Reply]  [No Email]
Puddles 03-04-2013 08:26:46 24.113.77.208 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to JOB, 03-04-2013 04:33:17   In welding school I was taught to turn the oxygen off first. And I think every thing I've read and seen to date says to turn the oxygen off first. But I've been doing this for so long now I have my way of doing things, and it has worked great all these years, so very little I do is up for discussion to change. What I like about Jody's video, (first one) is how he explains about backing the adjustment valve off after each use, and stand to the side when you turn the bottles on. But I had to laugh when I seen he turns the fuel off first. I'll bet I've been around 10,000 weldors in my life, I can't remember a one who turned the oxygen off first. [Reply]  [No Email]
JOB 03-04-2013 13:18:43 74.36.133.31 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Puddles, 03-04-2013 08:26:46   Puddles, do you have a typo in your second paragraph last sentence. Or am I not understanding something? [Reply]  [No Email]
Puddles 03-04-2013 13:28:58 24.113.77.208 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to JOB, 03-04-2013 13:18:43   I don't think so, but you'll have to spell it out for me. What do you mean? :? [Reply]  [No Email]
JOB 03-04-2013 17:08:33 74.36.133.31 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Puddles, 03-04-2013 13:28:58   If I understood your reply you turn off the oxygen first when shutting down your torch. The 10,000 others weldors you have been around turn off the acetylene first. I assumed the 10,000 other weldors may have turned off their torches the same way you do????? [Reply]  [No Email]
Puddles 03-04-2013 17:13:15 24.113.77.208 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to JOB, 03-04-2013 17:08:33   No, I always turn the fuel off first. And everyone I've been around turns the fuel off first as well. [Reply]  [No Email]
Stick welding 03-04-2013 15:55:00 198.53.83.89 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Puddles, 03-04-2013 13:28:58   I think he means you meant to say you have never seen anyone shut the oxygen off first. [Reply]  [No Email]
JOB 03-04-2013 05:28:46 74.36.133.31 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to JOB, 03-04-2013 04:33:17   I will try my picture again [Reply]  [No Email]
ldj 03-01-2013 15:32:36 68.88.96.186 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 11:54:41   [quote="Puddles"](quoted from post at 16:18:32 03/01/13) Did you pickup a set of flashbacks also? Hay, thanks all. 1st, yes I have flashbacks. I turned up oxy and gas pressures and that took care of it. It shuts down like it is supposed to [Reply]  [No Email]
Stick welding 03-01-2013 16:55:06 96.53.210.246 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 15:32:36   Rosebuds aren't made to be throttled back. There shouldn't be any black soot from the acetylene when you turn the oxygen on. The higher pressure/flow of gas moving through the rosebud helps to cool it off. With too low of pressure it will backfire(pop) when you shut it off and even when using it. Getting it too close to the hot work piece will also cause backfiring even with the right gas pressures. Flashback arrestors prevent the backfire from going back through the hoses and causing a much more serious flashback and/or explosion. Without knowing the size of your rosebud, I'd guess about 10 PSI acetylene and 20 to 30 oxygen should be fine. A real big rosebud needs 15 Acetylene but usually also needs 2 or more cylinders manifolded together to supply enough acetylene without drawing the acetone out of the cylinder(s). [Reply]  [No Email]
Puddles 03-01-2013 15:18:32 24.113.77.208 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 11:54:41   Did you pickup a set of flashbacks also? [Reply]  [No Email]
JOHNNYfromMI 03-01-2013 15:18:11 74.115.62.95 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 11:54:41   Your acetylene tank can only deliver 1/7 of it total capacity per hour. If your rosebud keeps popping you need to get a smaller rosebud or a larger acetylene tank. Or get the connection to draw off two tanks or more at the same time. The popping you are hearing is the fire going in the mixing chamber. This has the potential to explode in your hand. [Reply]  [No Email]
jon f mn 03-01-2013 15:08:00 70.196.193.233 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 11:54:41   Always shut the gas off first. [Reply]  [No Email]
Chris(WA) 03-01-2013 14:30:12 64.38.158.247 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 11:54:41   Shut off the gas first then the oxygen. [Reply]  [No Email]
JGayman 03-02-2013 06:21:54 67.234.167.54 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Chris(WA), 03-01-2013 14:30:12   Are you sure about this? I have been taught to light the fuel gas first and then introduce the oxygen. When shutting off, turn off the oxygen first and then the fuel gas. Nearly every training video I've ever seen has taught the same order for lighting and shutdown. [Reply]  [No Email]
Stick welding 03-02-2013 22:39:29 96.53.210.246 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to JGayman, 03-02-2013 06:21:54   If you try to light the oxygen, you'll be there for a long time. However, with propane it helps to have the oxygen on a little bit with the propane so the flame stays lit if there's a breeze. I don't know what video's you've watched but I think you're confused. Fuel gas first is the same order of doing things. You turn the fuel gas on first so you have something to light and you turn the fuel gas off first to extinguish the flame. Rosebuds often "pop" when shutting off because the head has got a little too hot and there's still a tiny bit of acetylene that didn't make it out the end. Another good reason to shut the oxygen off last is it gives a couple seconds of cooling to the rosebud or tip. [Reply]  [No Email]
JGayman 03-03-2013 02:35:03 67.234.167.54 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Stick welding, 03-02-2013 22:39:29   "I don't know what video's you've watched but I think you're confused. Fuel gas first is the same order of doing things. You turn the fuel gas on first so you have something to light and you turn the fuel gas off first to extinguish the flame." Apparently there are two schools of thought on this. I just re-watched the Victor Oxy-Fuel safety video that they have on their website and it clearly shows fuel gas on first when lighting and Oxygen off first when extinguishing. http://victortechnologies.com/Shop_Talk/Victor/shoptalk.php at 29:53 [Reply]  [No Email]
Puddles 03-02-2013 12:24:57 24.113.77.208 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to JGayman, 03-02-2013 06:21:54   I don't know if I have ever turned off a rose bud that didn't pop. No matter which valve I turned off first. I always turn the fuel off first. I don't like having the tip sooted up. I think the only acetylene rose bud I have left is a #12, I run right at 15-psi with it. [Reply]  [No Email]
Chris(WA) 03-02-2013 11:52:07 64.38.158.247 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to JGayman, 03-02-2013 06:21:54   Yup. Pretty sure. That is how I was taught and do it. I have heard of doing it the other way but it always seems to pop. Fuel off first, the fuel is burned up and exhausted out the tip by the oxy flow. If you shut off the oxy first it will burn back into the torch. [Reply]  [No Email]
Mike M 03-01-2013 13:43:33 24.140.0.120 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 11:54:41   Our rosebud only works right with the pressures cranked up alot. Even with a green shield I still got my eyes welder burned. You must need something darker then for regular brazing. [Reply]  [No Email]
Stan in Oly, WA 03-02-2013 01:12:14 174.31.216.16 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Mike M, 03-01-2013 13:43:33   No UV rays in oxy/acetylene flame, only infrared and visible light. Are you sure your eyes didn't just get dried out from the heat? With oxy/acetylene welding, shaded glasses are only to block some of the visible light, but a lot of people don't bother with them for using a rosebud---there's no weld puddle you have to be able to see. Stan [Reply]  [No Email]
Stick welding 03-02-2013 22:49:31 96.53.210.246 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 03-02-2013 01:12:14   Even when setting the flame for cutting, you don't normally wear cutting goggles. I've seen a lot guys do good cuts without goggles but I have real trouble seeing what I'm doing and it really bothers my eyes. With a rosebud you're not usually staring right at the flame. You're watching the piece you're heating up and not melting it. [Reply]  [No Email]
aarolar 03-01-2013 15:34:30 68.170.247.196 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Mike M, 03-01-2013 13:43:33   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Huh? You burned your eyes brazing with an oxy/fuel setup? On topic you are going to need to jack your fuel pressure up to about 10psi when using your rosebud be careful not to exceed 15psi with acetylene. Also be sure you have a good seal between the rosebud and mixing chamber if its able to suck any air in there it will pop bad. [Reply]  [No Email]
mdtractormechanic 03-01-2013 12:31:29 68.55.14.206 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 11:54:41   Adjust the flame so it's just off the tip. [Reply]  [No Email]
drjasonvdb 03-01-2013 12:26:35 174.252.226.229 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 11:54:41   I'm no expert but I had that problem with my set and it turned out my rosebud tip was a little big for my setup even though they were sold together. I kicked up my pressure on my regulators about 4-5 lbs on each and the hot handle and popping went away, I can run it all day now and the handle barely gets warm. I've heard a hot handle can have to do with the flame actually being partly inside the handle. (premature ignition) from the flame looking for enough gas to burn. Not sure if any of that is real but kicking up the pressures on both tanks a bit made a world of difference for me. [Reply]  [No Email]
dr sportster 03-01-2013 12:21:40 68.192.200.206 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to ldj, 03-01-2013 11:54:41   Sounds about normal. [Reply]  [No Email]
Plasticky State 03-01-2013 14:59:23 71.169.174.203 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to dr sportster, 03-01-2013 12:21:40   Does sound about right. Cheap torches tip too big for tank delivery rate at some point it will burn up the mixing chamber and orings in the handle meanwhile get a smaller rosebud or some name brand gear you are really supposed to turn off the oxygen first to avoid pops [Reply]  [No Email]
dr sportster 03-01-2013 19:08:17 68.192.200.206 Report to Moderator	Re: Rosebud tip in reply to Plasticky State, 03-01-2013 14:59:23   It was the word "cheap" that inspired my response. Cheap and torches don't go well together. [Reply]  [No Email]