Yesterday's Tractor Co. Restoration Quality Tractor Parts
Click Here or call 800-853-2651 
   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver
 
Marketplace
Tractor Manuals
Tractor Parts
Classified Ads
Photo Ads

Community
Discussion Forums
Project Journals
Tractor Town
Your Stories
Show & Pull Guide
Events Calendar
Hauling Schedule

Galleries
Tractor Photos
Implement Photos
Vintage Photos
Help Identify
Parts & Pieces
Stuck & Troubled
Vintage Ads
Community Album
Photo Ad Archives

Research & Info
Articles
Tractor Registry
Tip of the Day
Safety Cartoons
Tractor Values
Serial Numbers
Tune-Up Guide
Paint Codes
List Prices
Production Nbrs
Tune-Up Specs
Torque Values
3-Point Specs
Glossary

Miscellaneous
Tractor Games
Just For Kids
Virtual Show
Museum Guide
Memorial Page
Feedback Form

Yesterday's Tractors Facebook Page

Related Sites
Tractor Shed
TractorLinks.com
Ford 8N/9N Club
Today's Tractors
Garden Tractors
Classic Trucks
Kountry Life
Enter your email address to receive our newsletter!

subscribe
unsubscribe
  
Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Lectrical Help

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author  [Modern View]
Leron Smith

02-02-2013 18:18:17
173.87.214.149



Report to Moderator

Went to a friends house he wanted me to help put in a new light over his sink. The old one was wired with 2-way switches. Red white and black wires at the switch, with just black and white at the fixture. We noticed that even with the switches in "off" position We are reading 10 volts at the fixture. No matter which way we position the switches or unhook wires we still read some amount of low voltage. We were going to cap off one of the switches and just make the circuit -- ON/OFF with one of the switches but we kept noticing 10 volts showing up even in off position. This is red white black with no green ground any where.Thanks.

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
barnE

02-06-2013 17:37:57
67.172.83.183



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
Good discussion. Been there. done that. All of them. Dr. is right. Wiggy, best tester every made. Too sensitive a meter is sure trouble. Unmarked wires(knob and tube) will cause identified problems. Like a bult that faintly glows. When in doubt, draw it out. Plan your work and work your plan. If you can't figure it out get expert help. Somebodies life is at stake. Dave, retired master, contractor and low priced electrician. No more free advice unless the price is right. Simpson meter is second choice since the 60.s

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Sparktrician

02-05-2013 05:18:28
198.144.54.32



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
You are reading phantom voltage.....voltage induced into the circuit from other circuits......it is static electricity basically.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
MarkB_MI

02-05-2013 19:29:22
75.198.97.3



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Sparktrician, 02-05-2013 05:18:28  
I hate to be a nitpicker, Sparky, but an induced voltage is not the same thing as static electricity. You're talking about the effects of a magnetic versus electric field. Not the same at all.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Inno

02-04-2013 07:11:34
206.172.0.204



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
Yeah, it's from back when electons used to behave differently! :lol:



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
dr sportster

02-04-2013 12:30:40
173.2.32.154



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Inno, 02-04-2013 07:11:34  
No it is just that a wiggy is ready to go no knobs, no on/ off switch, it either tells you if you are going to get rapped or go ahead no power. By the time the original poster and his friend got done talking about the 10 volts on the Fluke meter a real electrician would have the new fixture already installed. Almost any troubleshooting can be done with a wiggy containing a built in continuity light. Thats all you need.KISS. This is not the first time I have heard of a meter confusing a homeowner looking to change out a bad switch etc.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
dr sportster

02-03-2013 12:12:21
67.85.145.163



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
Thats why electricians use wiggys not meters. Meters cause confusion.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

02-03-2013 06:08:47
71.52.103.159



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
Right inside the main panel where the Neutral and Ground Busses are bonded together, the voltage between the two (effectively across a short circuit) is near ZERO. HOWEVER as you get further from the panel and Neutrals and Grounds and Hots are all in paralell theres like a capacitor (capacitor effect) with possible voltage between two ends of a capacitor.

Similar, the voltage from Neutral to mother earth is near zero at the panel since the grounding electrode conductor (No 4 bare copper wire) is connected to the Neutral which leads to a grounding electrode (like a driven rod into earth). HOWEVER as you get downstream with Neutrals in paralell with hot conductors mutual inductance (transformer effect) plus the capacitance referred to above can all yield a Neutral voltage higher then mother earth.

Also old fashioned analog meters and newer digital meters yield different results subject to their input impedance and how they work, I love my old Simpson 260 analog in these applications. An "ideal" voltmeter has INFINITE resistance so it doesnt draw current and affect the true voltage between the test points.

Sure the 3 way switch (two single pole double throw switches) is wirede correct???

John T

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Paul

02-03-2013 19:53:01
66.44.133.112



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to John T, 02-03-2013 06:08:47  
There is an old style 3way switch setup that can cause that effect?

I've got it in my house, 1930s setup.

When I had a new breaker box put in, my stairs lights were glowing at night, told the electrician the next day, and he said oh, the old style. He flipped the neutral and hot wires, and took care of it. He said those old type, makes a difference which side gets hot, but didnt elaborate.

Paul

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

02-04-2013 05:29:10
71.52.103.159



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Paul, 02-03-2013 19:53:01  
For over 50 years I know of ONLY ONE way to wire them using two SINGLE POLE DOUBLE THROW SWITCHES. Each THROW wires to the other switches THROW (runners),,,One POLE wires to the branch circuits hot voltage SOURCE, The other POLE wires to the LOAD. Maybe there was an OLD way before I first learned how to wire them or different then single pole double throw switch use????

Fun chat, wish I knew an old versus a new way???

John T

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dusty MI

02-06-2013 05:36:50
97.106.7.126



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to John T, 02-04-2013 05:29:10  

John T said: (quoted from post at 06:29:10 02/04/13) Fun chat, wish I knew an old versus a new way??? John T


There is an old way. It was used to run a yard light on the pole between the house and barn. It used one less wire and powered from both the house and the barn.

Not a very safe because if one was going to work on the light and turned off the power at one end he didn't realize it was still hot from the other end.

I think is was called Chicago Loop.

Not legal today. I can't quite remember how to wire one that way, and don't want to.

Dusty
This post was edited by Dusty MI at 15:55:38 02/06/13.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Paul

02-03-2013 19:53:35
66.44.133.112



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Paul, 02-03-2013 19:53:01  
I meant, 2 way.

Paul



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

02-04-2013 05:18:04
184.151.61.143



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Paul, 02-03-2013 19:53:35  
Ain't no such thing as two way. Single, three way and four way.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Stephen Newell

02-03-2013 04:54:06
66.53.81.8



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  

If the light was wired with two switches they should have been wired with three way switches. A three way switch just switches the hot lead from one runner wire to the other. Both switches have to be switched to the same wire to make the connection. You can cap off one switch however you have to find out which one has the power coming into it and wire from that one. It might be easier to put it back with two three way switches.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Leron Smith

02-02-2013 23:35:23
173.87.214.149



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
We were using a two wire orange light test probe as well as a High Quality Fluke ANALOG test probe. It was suggested to me that the low volt in the line was used to power the lighted wall switches you can see in the dark??? how does that work?? The guy that wired the house was a retired Electrical engineer with too much time on his hands, so many things are overkill. (IE) Two way switches in closets that also affect kitchen outlets ,permanent electric wall clocks in every room,Electric furnace,junction boxes to no where, ETC. ETC>.. This was not to the earth ground test this was 10V from the the black to the white wire at the bulb outlet 14-2 . A real Rube Goldberg original. Probably very correct for 1974 standards.Thank-you for your help and ideas.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
MarkB_MI

02-03-2013 04:55:36
75.198.70.209



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 23:35:23  
If you have lighted switches, there is a small amount of current traveling through the wires when the switch is off. If there's at least one light bulb in the circuit, then you'll see no voltage because the load of the bulb effectively grounds the switched line. But if you try to read the voltage without any bulbs installed, then you will indeed see significant voltage because the input impedance of the meter is too high to ground the circuit.

Rule number one: whenever possible, always measure voltage when there is a load on the circuit. This is true whether you're looking for an open or a short. You will get very misleading results if you try to measure voltage on circuit that has no load.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

02-02-2013 21:16:24
209.240.121.101



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
You were likely measuring neutral voltage vs. true earth potential. If the line switch is open, the neutral voltage will appear on the load side of the switch through the lamp. This all goes back to our dozens of previous discussions about the difference between neutral and ground.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
old

02-02-2013 20:39:30
209.86.226.54



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
That is what I was taught to call the transformer effect. Any time you have wires running close to each other you can see ghost voltage due to inter element capacitance and if you use a digital meter it is a lot worse so I would say you have no problem. If you have a flash light bulb try it in that line and I bet you will not get it to light up



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
MarkB_MI

02-02-2013 18:58:32
75.198.51.146



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
It is normal for a digital multimeter to read voltage on an open circuit. The input impedance is high enough that normal 60 Hz noise will register on the meter as a significant voltage.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bus Driver

02-02-2013 18:57:42
67.213.32.234



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
Were you using a digital meter? They are so sensitive that they read induced voltages in conductors. Often the reading will be as high as 60 volts. If a digital meter, my guess is that there is really no problem.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Russ from MN

02-02-2013 18:34:42
67.60.206.74



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
I think if two wires run parallel to each other there will be some voltage present in the supposedly dead wire. Check it with a test light or a wiggy to see if there is any real power there.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Retired Farmer

02-02-2013 18:27:23
207.200.116.12



Report to Moderator
 Re: Lectrical Help in reply to Leron Smith, 02-02-2013 18:18:17  
From what I know about electricity you either have a bad wire somewhere or a bad switch or switches.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:

TRACTOR   PARTS TRACTOR   MANUALS
Same-Day Shipping! Most of our stocked parts ship the same day you order (M-F).  Expedited shipping available, just call!  Most prices for parts and manuals are below our competitors.  Compare our super low shipping rates!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor.  We are a Company you can trust and have generous return policies!   Shop Online Today or call our friendly sales staff toll free (800) 853-2651. [ More Info ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2014 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters