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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema

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dennis min

01-04-2013 18:19:01
71.48.125.3



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All,

I responded earlier, and feel the need to defend "stick-shift" pickups trucks.

Is the fact that there are many more autos due the the selling point that there are fewer people that can drive/buy a stick-shift?

Is it probable that truck manufacturers' cannot control what RPM/speed/etc a stickshift provides to the end user? I am thinking waranty, here.

Not an argument, but posing a question or two.

D.

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mkirsch

01-07-2013 08:04:59
64.80.110.74



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
I sincerely doubt that it's as complicated as you make it out to be. Nobody has made a conscious decision to trade in their stick for an automatic because they can't drive and talk on their cell phone at the same time.
I suspect that 98% of people would choose an automatic over a stick for their daily driver, just based on nothing else but personal preference. Years ago you got the stick because it made the cost of the vehicle significantly lower. Most people didn't choose sticks out of some self-imposed duty to the environment, or because they thought it made them tougher.

Over time the automatic option became a smaller and smaller part of the total cost of the car. Spread $1000 out over 5 years of payments, and it doesn't seem like much. A little prodding from a savvy salesperson is all it takes.

It's just simple market forces that have killed the stick in the USA, not some nefarious conspiracy between the US government and some Illuminati organization.

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Ellis Kinney

01-06-2013 08:41:37
74.136.122.24



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
I think that manual transmissions get better gas mileage. Here is why. When you stop in an automatic transmission do you put it in neutral? Probably not. The engine is trying to move the car while your foot is on the brake. All you have to do to figure this out is to take your foot off the brake and the car moves. With a manual the engine is idling without trying to move the car. When sitting at a long stoplight I put my wife's car in neutral til the light changes. Ellis

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PAGlenn

01-05-2013 15:41:30
69.142.233.106



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  

My car and work truck are automatics. But I still like shifting gears. I drive my 72 chevy C10 stepside truck every chance I get. But of course no city driving at all. It is all country or small town cruising with that stick shift. I even changed out the three speed saginaw trans with a four speed m21 wide ratio Muncy trans out of a sixtys era vehicle. I don't think I will ever get tired of shifting this trans.

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fred from mo

01-07-2013 04:28:00
70.195.64.119



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to PAGlenn, 01-05-2013 15:41:30  
I had done that swap in my 71 as well until I found out the shifyer hit the seat as it looks likeyours has.



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MKinOntario

01-05-2013 12:38:50
184.144.86.37



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
Traffic, traffic and more traffic, at least here in Southern Ontario. It's stop and go everywhere, almost all day long, especially close to cities. Who wants to do all that shifting, though more importantly the stopping and starting? It's one thing in a car, but the heavier clutches of these trucks? Shifting without the clutch is beyond most peoples' grasp, even a lot of the new truckers we have in our area. I'd think more pickup trucks (even HDs) are sold in urban areas than the countryside, so that would probably dictate a trend for a manufacturer. This demand has almost certainly driven the development of much better autos, that work great and are extremely reliable. I have enough shifting in my big dump truck all day, where I'd rather a stick, even without using the clutch, so the last thing I want is to be shifting a pickup on the way home, or on the way to jobsites in the heart of the city, with traffic lights every 100yds or less.

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oj

01-05-2013 10:19:21
199.195.160.196



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
I"ve also noticed though, that the auto box is still an "option", as the last truck i looked at (Chevy as it happens) the window sticker had it (auto box) as an upgrade... nice to see how they"re trying to pull the wool over our eyes...

I"ll stick to my 98 stick shift...

And yes, it"s amazing how few people can drive stick now...

GF"s car (Ford Freestyle) has one of those CVT transmissions... not bad to drive but takes some getting used too, if i use the cruse control and have to stop then go again after a stop sign or something, use the resume button then the computer will get her back to 60 mph at 2500rpm, try do do that with your foot on the throttle and you"ll be passed by everything on the road... it"s like the computer doesn"t want the tranny to "upshift" and make use of engine torque...

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marloweg

01-05-2013 08:56:31
184.157.219.229



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
all i buy are manual tras. trucks that way when i go to town i do not lock it because no one will steal it because they can't drive it. only reason thy are dropping manuals is trucks are not for work or farmers any more they are people haulers and soccer mom toys 80 to 90% of trucks are just people haulers



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Dick L

01-05-2013 08:24:53
50.51.132.156



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
The newer automatic transmissions are not the same transmissions of yester year.
They are not only using more and more automatic transmissions in Semi tractors but also in dragsters/hotrods for racing. The advancements in the automatic transmissions has allowed them to take the torque of the higher horse power engines. However it would have to be true that using an automatic for years would lower a drivers skill in matching engine RPM's to proper gear shifting.

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Notjustair

01-05-2013 07:53:38
174.237.161.125



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
I ordered my current pickup new in 07 - automatic was the ONLY option. Granted, I bought a Tundra not a Dodge. This was my first automatic pickup. It is OK but the worst part is the traction nanny. That is about worthless on the farm.

When I owned the bus company I had both autos and 4x2 set ups. I always put new drivers in autos and let them switch if they wanted to after a few months. I wanted the chance to see whether they drove a standard everyday and how they treated it when the left the lot. My favorite bus was a sub with a 4x2. I cringed when it left the lot with some folks. I knew the clutch would weight a pound less when it returned. Funny, though, the drivers fought to be able to drive a manual unit. If your first clutch lasted less than 18 months you got booted to automatic. Most drivers never had their clutch replaced at all. A clutch might be a wear item, but I have never replaced a clutch on anything that I drove (that wasn't wore out when I got it). You shouldn't need to as far as I am concerned.

I think everyone should learn it. Later today I need to move some things to another spot. The other half won't drive the big tractor because "it is to big and I might hit something" and can't drive the grain truck because it is a 4x2 and doesn't know manual. I am left making two trips to get the tractor and truck where I want them. I have even tired the "you can't hurt the old truck" speech. Doesn't work.

Who doesn't want a chance at driving that nice piece of iron? The neighbors don't call it the chick magnet for nothin'!

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Spook

01-05-2013 05:59:00
99.103.114.137



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
I think manual trannies were still being built in pretty big numbers until the 90's - then cell phones got popular, and it's hard to use one and shift. That killed off the manual trans.



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MarkB_MI

01-05-2013 06:00:33
75.219.91.91



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to Spook, 01-05-2013 05:59:00  
Cell phones and 32 ounce travel mugs.



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cannonball

01-05-2013 04:43:23
98.20.44.17



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
your left hip will last longer with an automatic...



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MarkB_MI

01-05-2013 04:06:19
75.219.91.91



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
The demise of manual transmissions is mainly due to lack of demand. And it's not just in heavy duty pickup trucks: They disappeared from passenger cars and heavy duty earthmoving equipment decades ago. And a lot of heavy and medium duty trucks are sold with automatics.

It's true that a lot of folks never learn to drive manual transmissions. But which came first, the chicken or egg? No way to learn to drive a manual when there are very few stick-shifts on the road.

Interestingly, manuals are still very popular in Europe. Cars almost identical to those sold in the US are available with manual transmissions in Europe. Partly this is due to high fuel prices in Europe (never mind that modern autos can match or exceed the mileage of manual transmissions), but mostly it's just a mindset: proper cars come with manual transmissions. It's just a reversal of North America, where market demand is for automatics.

There's really no big advantage in operating costs between a manual and automatic transmission. True, overhaul costs for an auto are high, but replacing a heavy-duty clutch isn't cheap either. Fuel mileage with a six-speed overdrive automatic is likely to match a five-speed manual. So it really comes down to the driver's preference, and pulling a heavy load over hilly terrain with a manual tranny is brutal work. Personally, I'll take six speeds plus a torque converter over five speeds and a clutch any day.

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Ultradog MN

01-05-2013 03:55:42
184.100.109.75



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
My first automatic transmission was a Ford F250 that I bought new off the lot in 96.
Prior to that I had driven just about anything and everything that ever had a stick - 5, 5X2, 5X3, 9, 10, 13, twin stick 4X4, 3 on the floor, 4 on the floor, 3 on the tree, etc.
Nowadays I would never even consider owning a stick shift - unless it was a classic of some sort.
Just as I would never go back to a Schick or Gilette "safety" razor with replaceable double edged blades, I would likewise never go back to a stick.

PS, I use an electric now anyway. Usually keep it in my PU and often shave as I'm going down the highway. Because I can.
I don't have to shift.

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willie in mn

01-05-2013 00:24:21
67.142.168.22



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
Expanding on this topic a bit-
Back in the mid 80's I worked in a school bus shop for a while. Fleet of around 50 units, all with juice boxes. Owner explained that school routes are part time jobs, 2-2 1/2 hours mornings & same afternoons. He figured finding drivers who could work these hours & knew how to use a clutch was almost impossible. Averaged having doing a clutch job once a week. First replacement cycle, (replaced 12-15 every year to keep the fleet new) he traded clutch rigs for Allisons. After switching to juice boxes, averaged one trans problem every two years. Owner had another plan- second replacement cycle after he bought the company he replaced all the "Big Three" brands with another brand. Not to mention any names, but a brand that also made farm equipment. Next replacement cycle replaced the gas rigs with 9 liter diesel V8's. Initial cost was a few hundred bucks higher, but he figured having smaller parts stock, all the same filters, belts, brake shoes etc saved money.
Willie

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pete black

01-04-2013 20:52:00
166.205.55.20



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
easiest way to learn how to drive a stick-shift is with a 4-wheel drive in low range. nearly impossible to stall it in 1st. gear and up shifting is easily accomplished. confidence and proficiency is quickly gained.



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Bob M

01-04-2013 20:21:01
67.240.174.32



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
Having worked many years as an engineer in the auto industry, my suspicion the primary reason the disappearance of manual trannies is tighter exhaust emission requirements. (Emissions can be more tightly controlled with a computer-controlled auto than with a driver-controlled manual.)

Also however, customer demand for manuals has dwindled, and with current 6 speed transmissions the mileage penalty for automatics has become vanishingly small.

Note I too wish large P/U's with manual transmissions were still being built...

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Dean

01-04-2013 20:31:42
152.216.3.5



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to Bob M, 01-04-2013 20:21:01  
Bingo.

The federales must share the blame as they must for the demise of diesel PU popularity.

The fact is that there is a major market shift back to gasoline engined light trucks.

Stay tuned. The same thing is going to happen to the CUT and utility tractor markets for the same reason.

Thanks feds.

Dean



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Dean

01-04-2013 20:19:43
152.216.3.5



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
Manufacturers are dropping manual shift PU options because few people are buying them.

This drives up costs due to lower manufacturing volumes over which to ammortize engineering, manufacturing, marketing, parts distribution, and, not to be ignored, EPA certification costs.

Dean



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kcred

01-04-2013 20:19:16
75.105.131.135



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
When learning to drive , it should be in a stick shift vehicle , Later on in life , if you happen to need the use of someone elses vehicle , you won t be stuck not knowing how to drive a stick shift.
When my wife and I were in the military , stationed in San Deigo Calif , Me at North Island , Her at Harbor school command anex , I needed a Dress uniform for a flight , She checked out a ford pick-up truck , from the motor pool and drove to our appartment ,picked up my uniform and drove to north Island to deliver to me , my uniform in FIRST gear all the way and back to her base. after we got out she learned to drive a stick shift,

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old

01-04-2013 18:48:31
209.86.226.40



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 Re: new trucks...auto-stick,,.dilema in reply to dennis min, 01-04-2013 18:19:01  
I only own cars and trucks with stick shifts for a number of reasons. #1 they just plain and simple get better MPG. #2 for some reason every automatic I have ever had my wife or son rips out as in destroys them. Plus I can repair a stick shift set up but I can not an automatic



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