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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Welding copper to be drinking safe

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old

10-31-2012 08:38:29
209.86.226.56



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Did not want to cut into the other post but if you where say making a small still for home drink what and how would you weld up a copper tank for the still and have it safe for a person to drink the stuff. Years ago ding it with all glass would have been easy but now days seems to old chemistry set stuff is hard to find and if you do it is all the small type stuff not the big 10 liter flasks etc.

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Rich_WI

11-02-2012 17:21:05
50.50.77.31



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
So you feel the police are getting worse, pulling people over to drum up money and you were going to take their word for it that distilling was legal if you didnt sell it, rather than simply read the links I posted for you?

Wow, you got some brass ones, I give ya that. Im not quite as flippant with my freedom.



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old

11-02-2012 17:49:17
209.86.226.19



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to Rich_WI, 11-02-2012 17:21:05  
Well here lately the H/P seems to be hanging out a lot more and when you do see them they seem to be pulling over a whole lot more people then what I have noticed in the last couple years. Almost every day you can figure on seeing one sitting in the same place day after day like a vulture waiting on some thing to die



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john730d

11-02-2012 14:09:37
208.73.228.5



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
Hardware or plumbing store. Ever hear of copper water pipes in a house? Same stuff, copper is copper.



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Rich_WI

11-01-2012 20:23:35
50.50.77.31



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
Ya, Im not sure of the history but I do know its illegal and its usually not the state that pinches ya, its the federal goverment (although many times it starts with local LEOs snooping around). Illegal distilling is hardly a situation of a "law that is on the books but never enforced". They enforce it and they seem to enjoy it. Just like speeding, its always best to just never let a LEO know you are doing it.

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old

11-02-2012 08:22:24
209.86.226.40



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to Rich_WI, 11-01-2012 20:23:35  
Ya and now days it seems that as you call them LEO are getting worse as for if they can find something to pull you over for they will do so instead of just being there so you naturally slow down etc. Maybe they just need the $$ to help get the crooks in office lol. Got a ticket the other day for not wearing a seat belt the correct way as in not having the shoulder strap on but had the lap belt on. I always though the shoulder strap was optional

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Rich_WI

11-01-2012 17:57:50
50.50.77.31



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to Lanse, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

The officers you talked to are idiots or intentionally lied to you. Distilling even one drop without a permit is illegal if that spirit is ment for human consumption. Dont believe me? Call or email the people that would likely be prosecuting you, the BATF. The "A" in BATF does not stand for "and", just so you know.
Like I said before, I understand people are going to break the law, I just think its important to know when you are breaking the law. At least then you can look at the crime and decide if its worth the time.
Spirits

You cannot produce spirits for beverage purposes without paying taxes and without prior approval of paperwork to operate a distilled spirits plant. [See 26 U.S.C. 5601 & 5602 for some of the criminal penalties.] There are numerous requirements that must be met that make it impractical to produce spirits for personal or beverage use. Some of these requirements are paying special tax, filing an extensive application, filing a bond, providing adequate equipment to measure spirits, providing suitable tanks and pipelines, providing a separate building (other than a dwelling) and maintaining detailed records, and filing reports. All of these requirements are listed in 27 CFR Part 19.
Ray emailed the BATF for the reference statutes concerning home distillation. Here is their response:

Ray, you have not been able to locate anything on home production because there is no provision for it. Moonshining is still illegal!! Unlike wine or beer, the laws and regulations governing distilled spirits contain no provision that would allow someone to produce spirits in their home for personal use. Under 26 U.S.C. Section 5171 operations as a distiller, warehouseman or processor may be conducted only on the bonded premises of a qualified distilled spirits plant. To qualify such a plant, a registration, application for permit and bond must be filed in addition to other supporting organizational documents. 26 U.S.C. 5178 places restrictions on where a plant can be located. Hope this answers your question.

Carol Coy
Industry Specialist
National Revenue Center-Cincinnati, OH
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
e-mail: cjcoy@cinc.atf.treas.gov

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old

11-01-2012 18:53:07
209.86.226.40



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to Rich_WI, 11-01-2012 17:57:50  
Ah so goes back to poabition (sp) then and why it can not be done and be legal but then lots of laws are out there that people break all the time not knowing and many are so old that few even know the law is still there. I. E. it is not legal for a person in MI to have a mud puddle in there yard for 24 hours. Yep still on the book but not enforced



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buickanddeere

11-01-2012 04:55:24
207.164.79.49



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
Any decent hardware store carries lead free solder.



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Hobo,NC

11-01-2012 04:53:50
98.17.83.23



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
So you don't kill anyone read all you can about "Popcorn Sutton"

Are go buy a copy of "November 2012 Maxim" (its a men's mag at news stands that's full of dirt but it comes to me free so sometimes I flip thu it) for a story about Popcorn Sutton.

A good still is made to take apart fast wink wink no solider joints...



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M-MAN

10-31-2012 21:58:02
184.39.144.12



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
If it was me I would forget the copper pot & use a large pressure cooker. Remove the guage & attach the copper coil line. Take it off when you're done so you don't have any illegal still components laying around.



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old

10-31-2012 22:03:31
209.86.226.61



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to M-MAN, 10-31-2012 21:58:02  
Most pressure cookers are aluminum or at least the 2 I have are and that makes them unsafe. As for being legal from what I have found it is in fact legal in limited amounts and as long as not sold.



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M-MAN

11-01-2012 08:12:00
184.39.144.12



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 22:03:31  
Mine are aluminum also but they make stainless ones too. Lots of stainless possibilities when you think about it although they are all hypothetical. Stills or any part of one is illegal unless you have a permit. Was at our local scrapyard years ago when the sherrif came by and had a chat with them about a worm and cap hanging on the wall. Shear or jail so it got sheared. A young feller might not know what it is but an old timer can spot still parts easy.

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old

11-01-2012 09:05:48
209.86.226.40



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to M-MAN, 11-01-2012 08:12:00  
I have talked to a number of law officers who have told me it is legal to have a still as long as NONE is ever sold. Ya small amounts as in under 10 or fewer gal. Does not matter either way since where I live it would be hard to find if I had one any how



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wisbaker

10-31-2012 18:47:02
207.118.181.192



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
By the way if you're really thinking about making moonshine everyone who posted on this thread is guilty of a felony "conspiracy to manufacture unlawful distilled spirits" You're dealing with the BATF and as they taught me in bomb school they don't have any sense of humor. The laws are so harsh it's almost illegal to think about making whisky, it you purchase any thing to make the still or the mash you have committed a crime.

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Rich_WI

10-31-2012 17:54:31
50.50.77.31



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to Steve-Maine, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see No, its still illegal, weather you sell it or not. You can make beer, you can make wine but you cant distill spirits. You CAN get a permit to make fuel and you CAN get permits for distilling commercially but we are not talking about that now (and good luck getting a permit to drink it, its a huge, long drawn out process. Oh, and dont forget money, its expensive as hell).
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
Again, NO, you cant make it for home use. As stated above, you can get a permit if you intend to make fuel but thats not what we are talking about here. Moonshine is for drinking, ethanol is for your car.

http://homedistiller.org/intro/legal

IMHO, its not a big deal to bend the laws a little bit (did you speed comming home from work tonight?) but with distilling its a good idea to know if you are breaking the law or not (you will be). That just keeps you from saying stupid things to people that just shouldnt be hearing about what you are doing. Use your head, keep your mouth shut and you will be fine. Hang out at homedistiller and you might meet people local to you. Homebrew clubs usually have some distillers and you can meet people there.

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Rich_WI

10-31-2012 17:24:06
50.50.77.31



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to d beatty, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
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No, not in the USA.



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Rich_WI

10-31-2012 17:22:50
50.50.77.31



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
You can still get pyrex lab glass, its all over ebay but boy oh boy is it pricy. Besides, if you are building just in case things go bad, you may want a larger still just so you dont have to use it too often or so you can make larger batches if its for fuel. In that case, you cant really get lab glass that large.

You can build a copper still easy enough though, just use any solder that a plumber would use. Off the shelf Home Depot or hardware store 95/5 is just fine and totally safe. Silver solder is higher temp but if you are getting your still over 180, you are doing it wrong.

I recommend a stainless steel keg though. Its a great kettle to start with, stupid easy to convert to a still and dirt cheap. 15 gallon (half barrel) kegs are real common and easy to start with. If you really got the itch for a copper one, start working on it after you are up and running with a converted keg.

Alot of people start at www.homedistiller.org, tons of info.

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indiana george

10-31-2012 17:14:03
76.16.114.221



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
Is legal to make moonshine?I know it"s legal to make wine , but I don"t know about moonshine.



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old

10-31-2012 17:29:40
209.86.226.32



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to indiana george, 10-31-2012 17:14:03  
Yes it is legal to make it but not to sell if big difference. Of course you can not make 1000 gal of the stuff at a time but for home and fuel use it is legal



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Greg_Ky

10-31-2012 15:10:05
216.146.234.53



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
Rich, don"t use any silver bearing solder because of the cadmium. If you can get your hands on silicon bronze wire or stick that is what you want to use. If you need help with mashing / yeasting let me know, with a good mash you will be able to get five proof gallons per bushel ( proof gallon = 1gal @ 100 proof) remember the proof is twice the percentage of alcohol. (100 proof = 50% alcohol)



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Stick welding

10-31-2012 22:20:45
96.53.210.246



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to Greg_Ky, 10-31-2012 15:10:05  
I believe you can get cadmium free silver solder but what ever you use check with the manufacturer that it's OK for food grade service. For stainless use 316.



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wisbaker

10-31-2012 13:27:38
207.118.181.192



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
As far as glass apparatus you're looking in the wrong place-try a dairy salvage place and ask for a pipeline receiver. Stainless steel also works quite well for distillation vessels but doesn't have the romance that copper does and some claim the copper interacts with the mash to impart some flavors into the liquor. Many of the new stills in the distilleries in Kentucky are stainless steel, but I know of one that keeps the stainless line hid from the public and shows off the old copper still that's over 100 years old. Stainless steel is also easy to weld with a TIG unit as long as you back purge what you're welding on to prevent oxidation of the stainless steel, a lot of people in the dairy, cheese and beverage industries are competent in making food grade welds in stainless.

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hintocw

10-31-2012 12:02:09
71.54.51.223



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
You can find all the chemistry apparatus/equipment you need on the internet for making a 'still.



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rd 2n in mo

10-31-2012 11:18:55
76.214.48.47



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
go search for "Popcorn's still" on utube and you will find most info for what you need



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dave2

10-31-2012 11:02:53
79.240.157.254



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
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Just sweat it with a propane torch and solder.......



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johnpop1

10-31-2012 10:52:41
108.4.131.245



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
TIG welding copper is pretty standard stuff these days. Most compitent welders can probably do it with proper equipment. The easier way would be to silver braze the joints with 45% silver braze alloy.



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kevinj54

10-31-2012 10:33:28
99.39.189.166



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to jddriver, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
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Braze it with sil phos like we do for refrigeration lines.



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George Marsh

10-31-2012 09:29:38
205.188.116.142



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
Old,
Not sure what you are asking, Welding copper? Do you want to make a still out of copper and have it safe to drink the moonshine? Well I've never seen anyone weld copper. I have used silver solder on copper. Before the Hunt brothers jacked the price of silver solder it was about 20x cheaper that today's price. When a copper line is attached to the steel on an A/C compressor it is silver soldered. There shouldn't be any lead in silver, unless it's made in China. You will need to get the proper flux and cleaners when using silver and an oxy/acet. torch to get it hot enough.

Post a pic of your still.

George

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old

10-31-2012 10:12:50
209.86.226.32



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to George Marsh, 10-31-2012 09:29:38  
Just one of those things we are wanting to build for more then one reason. Figure if it hits the fan like some say it is going to having a still will keep engines going plus keep a person with something to drink other then water LOL



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George Marsh

10-31-2012 12:29:15
50.104.246.0



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 10:12:50  
Are you going to change your name to OLDMOONSHINER?



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old

10-31-2012 14:37:41
209.86.226.34



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to George Marsh, 10-31-2012 12:29:15  
NO



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Fred from MO

11-01-2012 11:03:04
24.119.63.178



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 14:37:41  
Well if you start one it might make my parts trips to your place more enjoyable !!! Drive home would be a lot harder though LOL!!!!!!!!!:-0



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old

11-01-2012 12:00:22
209.86.226.19



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to Fred from MO, 11-01-2012 11:03:04  
Shoot I would just have the set up that army tent I have and fire up the wood stove I need to get for it so we could sit out there and drink and enjoy talking tractors LOL



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jackinok

10-31-2012 10:47:23
162.58.82.136



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 10:12:50  
wheres the corn for mash and the sugar coming from?LOL any of the modern plumbing sold should work if you are carefull to not let your pots get dry and too hot. if thats a concern, better make sure youve got a popoff or pressure relief valve or youve got a bomb and not a still! doubt very seriously if you could distill enough to make enough fuel, to raise enough mash,to make enough fuel etc etc.or raise/harvest enough sugar cane to produce sugar,raise /harvest enough corn to make mash, plant /grow/cut enough firewood for fuel,of course you could make enough liquid stupidity that you really wouldnt care!!!LOL easier to make wine for that though. besides when it gets to that point,a plain old water still would probably make more money.

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60 acre hillside

11-01-2012 03:25:27
67.142.170.22



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to jackinok, 10-31-2012 10:47:23  
A still operates at zero pressure



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jackinok

11-01-2012 12:45:16
162.58.82.136



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to 60 acre hillside, 11-01-2012 03:25:27  
theoreticaly yes,but theres been a many of them blow!



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wisbaker

10-31-2012 08:48:53
207.118.181.192



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 Re: Welding copper to be drinking safe in reply to old, 10-31-2012 08:38:29  
Never heard of or saw anyone weld copper. I think I would just use lead free solder and solder it together like you do copper plumbing.



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