Author	[Modern View]
ldj 09-12-2012 07:19:38 64.123.133.193 Report to Moderator	Yesterday while driving along I-20 between Abilene and Big Spring TX There was hundreds of windmills you could see from the road. No telling how many just a few miles off the road I couldn't see. There was about 10% mot working. Questions: How much electricity do these make? Probably not much. When I pass by electric plants powered by coal, neucular (SP) , gas or what ever I see power lines leaving the plant in all directions to deliver the current. Yesterday I didn't see any power lines leaving the area to deliver the current. Do they make such a small amount it is carried away on the smaller wires?. How expensive are the windmills? Whatever, multiply that by the number I saw and I'm sure you could build a electric plant that would make more current than these windmills. At least they would need big power lines to take the current away. Got me to thinking about this. The government subsidizes these windmills because they can't pay for them salves. Government is trying to prevent coal by putting so many regulations on them and they still make current at a profit. Someone tell me anything good about these windmills [Reply]   [No Email]
M w J 09-17-2012 18:49:06 66.6.1.21 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/energy/renewable/images/exhibit11-7.png [Reply]  [No Email]
CenTex Farmall 09-14-2012 18:04:55 12.146.230.34 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   I fly over that patch all the time. Part of the problem of their location is just that: no transmission lines to tie into the grid. They are, however, putting one up that runs east to tie into the grid in the vicinity of Corsicana. A year or two back T. Boone Pickens was on fire to build huge wind farms near Amarillo, and part of it did get built. He was banking on the State (you and me) to pay for the transmission lines. Something didn't work out and the project didn't get finished. CREZ project [Reply]  [No Email]
David G 09-13-2012 18:10:41 205.215.206.18 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Most of these units provide 12.5KV 3 phase, that is transmitted underground. It is then stepped up to 69KV or greater for transmission above ground. There is talk of a DC transmission line crossing the US. I am excited about that because the loss is much less than AC. [Reply]  [No Email]
Jason the Red 09-13-2012 17:15:51 108.87.1.121 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Kansas City Power and Light just added a second unit to their IATAN powerhouse two years ago. Cost...... Just over $2 BILLION!!! You can build a whole lot of windmills for that money. Windmills are not truly meant to replace coal or nuclear, just supplement it and in some cases provide self sufficiency. As far as gov't. subsidies, I don't agree with them at all, but then again why do we subsidize oil? It's almost $4.00 a gallon, while petroleum companies rake in record PROFITS! [Reply]  [No Email]
rhouston 09-13-2012 10:30:53 174.252.71.32 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   The links to the power grid are underground. Coal is better used to generate power than wasting natural gas. A coal power plant can be made cleaner than a coal fired furnace in a home. Use the coal for power generation save the gas for homes. Wind power isn't economical without subsidies. I don't want 497 foot windmills on the ridge of my valley but I couldn't stop them. If the subsidies dry up they may never get built. [Reply]  [No Email]
rustyfarmall 09-13-2012 10:53:33 67.55.162.174 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to rhouston, 09-13-2012 10:30:53   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see And just remember, there is nearly as much concrete buried in the ground as there is windmill sticking up on top of the ground. If those windmills were ever to be abandoned, the land they are on can NEVER be returned to productive crop raising land. [Reply]  [No Email]
Lamar Fudd 09-13-2012 09:50:15 50.83.85.99 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Brad, Iowa gets about 20% of our Electricity from wind---second only to Texas. [Reply]  [No Email]
Brad Buchanan 09-13-2012 10:56:04 74.71.185.165 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Lamar Fudd, 09-13-2012 09:50:15   Hey Lamar, I think wind power is a very viable source of power in certain areas. The following is an excerpt from an article in the U.S. governmant website concerning wind power. "The strongest winds in the United States tend to be in Alaska, the western United States, and the Appalachians. Wind power currently supplies about 1% of United States electricity needs, but capacity is expanding rapidly. Although wind will contribute more to the United States electric supply in the future, like hydropower it cannot be expected to supply all of our electric needs" Source: http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/people/a_energy.html Good discussion. Brad Untitled URL Link [Reply]  [No Email]
Brad Buchanan 09-13-2012 08:05:33 74.71.185.165 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   They are great for the landowners. Where I live, upstate New York there are several wind farms and the landowners have a stable income for decades. Also I know one very small township that negotiated and was able to allow residents to be land-tax free for 25 years. That being said I have read that windmills contribute single-digit percentages of the power needs of the country and never will never break 5%. Many are annoyed by the look of them but personally I think they look rather nice. Brad [Reply]  [No Email]
RayP(MI) 09-12-2012 19:04:27 207.241.137.116 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Central Michigan - Gratiot county, there are a bunch of them, drive across M-46, and they"re horizon to horizon. Donno how many, but typically, only a couple turning lazily - all the rest are stalled. Am told they aren"t able to sell the electricity. Don"t know if they put them up without contracts to sell, or what. What a waste! Am told that some of the landowners have a contract paying according to electricity sold at a profit - do you know how easily they can get off not making a profit for the landowners? [Reply]  [No Email]
Fred from Mo 09-12-2012 18:39:16 70.195.0.150 Report to Moderator	: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   There is another part to this that hasn't been mentioned. Most of these wind farms are constructed in the planes states were the wind blows but there are no transmission lines built to them. Most of the power demand is on both coasts of our country so you have people paying for the building of these new transmission lines through rate increases but will see no benefits from it. [Reply]  [No Email]
wisbaker 09-12-2012 18:15:11 207.118.243.33 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Yes stand-by power is also something the tree huggers and folks in DC can't understand. To be simple the power grid is real time, anytime you turn on a light or make any other demand on the power grid capacity must be available somewhere to meet that demand. Wind can be spotty so we have to keep carbon dioxide spewing fossil fuel burning plants running at an idle to be ready to grab the load if the wind dies off or to meet peak demands as people turn things on. For those of you that don't do commercial power in my buildings the KWH charge is less than half my power bill the other half is system demand, customer demand, meter charges and taxes and other government fees. For the demand charges I pay a per kilowatt fee for the Highest demand I had during the billing period. In the Jail that was usually about 280 KW, I pay another demand charge on the highest 15 Minute peak period over the last year, at the jail one year that was 350 KW that fee is often $10-$14 a KW so for that ONE 350 KW peak I paid roughly $3,500 a month for the next year in fees the extra 70 KW over my monthly demand was about $700 a month, or to turn on all the AC units and the kitchen equipment at once during that one period cost the taxpayers $8,400. [Reply]  [No Email]
dpendzic 09-12-2012 17:36:32 24.184.13.49 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   2 years ago the Berkshire wind power Co Op put up 10 windmills on the mountain above my property in the northern Berkshires. 1.5 megawatt each, 262 ft to the turbine, 40% runtime and 64.7 million project cost. Slight annoying hum from them but livable. [Reply]  [No Email]
Greg_Ky 09-12-2012 18:11:43 12.154.100.33 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to dpendzic, 09-12-2012 17:36:32   When I come up to Vacation Village Next year lets meet for coffee or something stronger at Powder Hounds. [Reply]  [No Email]
dpendzic 09-13-2012 14:59:14 24.184.13.49 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Greg_Ky, 09-12-2012 18:11:43   Sounds like a plan Greg!! Dan [Reply]  [No Email]
RodInNS 09-12-2012 16:39:25 216.118.158.123 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   I don't know what those mills put out... but most that have been put up in this area are in the 1-3 MW range depending on the wind available. The last numbers I heard is that they were somewhere in the million per MW cost to erect. Mabey somewhat more per unit of electricity for a smaller unit. It seems to me that the last coal plant they built here 20 years ago was about in that range... and they're still feeding coal into it. The biggest problem with wind is not the cost of erecting the machines. It's maintain a parallel infrastructure for backup when the wind doesn't blow. They also do not want to pay a reasonable amount of money for the wind energy (at least here)... so yeah... they probably need a subsidy to make it work. Seems like the utility will pay mabey 3 c KW-h vs charging 10.5 c KW-h for said energy to their customers. That's a tidy profit for transmission if you ask me... particularly given that they spend buggerall on maintaining that infrastructure (that the government paid to install in the firt place). Wind could be a lot more viable IF they can work more sensibly to plan some reliability into the system. Rod [Reply]  [No Email]
Gambles 09-12-2012 15:55:33 24.246.215.127 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Katana Summit, a windmill manufacturer announced that they are closing their windmill factories in Nebraska and Washington, laying off 300 people. 214 people in Nebraska and 79 in Washington will be out of a job. QUOTE: CEO Kevin Strudthoff says uncertainty about the future of tax credits for wind power is forcing the closures. He says orders for the towers Katana Summit makes have nearly stopped for 2013 because wind power developers want to know if the tax credits that expire at the end of this year will be renewed.UNQUOTE [Reply]  [No Email]
MSD 09-12-2012 20:42:25 67.4.59.86 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Gambles, 09-12-2012 15:55:33   Must be something going around. Heard tonight a blade factory in Aberdeen, SD is shutting down. 98 laid off. [Reply]  [No Email]
rustyfarmall 09-12-2012 16:20:04 67.55.162.174 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Gambles, 09-12-2012 15:55:33   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see If ANY industry cannot survive without tax credits, then it should just be left to fail. [Reply]  [No Email]
C.R. 09-13-2012 09:15:28 67.150.60.4 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to rustyfarmall, 09-12-2012 16:20:04   Good by airports [Reply]  [No Email]
Dean 09-12-2012 18:28:33 152.216.3.5 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to rustyfarmall, 09-12-2012 16:20:04   Bingo. Dean [Reply]  [No Email]
Ted in NE-OH 09-12-2012 14:13:05 173.189.169.175 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Nuclear is subsidized by the government big time. The government provides catastrophic insurance for them. The government has agreed to take the nuclear waste and dispose of it and the government has not figured that out yet. All the waste is still at the nuclear power plants in pools of water. A big future liability for the government [Reply]  [No Email]
wisbaker 09-12-2012 13:48:21 207.118.164.33 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   A few weeks ago there was a post on here about co-generation and mandates from the government that we increase the amount of co-generation pants in the US. For those that don't know co-generation usually involves burning some kind of fossil fuel OR nuclear energy, where it's different is the heat is used both for generating electricity and to heat or cool buildings. I'll stand by my post then it's good- they'll have to build power plants in big cities so they have a customer for the heat as well a the electricity. When New York, Boston, Los Angeles and Chicago all have to build power plants in their down town areas to meet federal co-generation mandates MAYBE then they'll figure out electric power isn't really clean. As for exporting coal to China you forgot an important factor, the jobs we used to have from all that coal consumption (like steel) went overseas with the coal. In many cases in the quest to save the earth all the environmentalists have done is exported our lower level jobs AND the pollution they produced to areas of the world that are hungry enough to accept the pollution to get the economic benefits the pollution causes. [Reply]  [No Email]
John T 09-12-2012 13:35:56 216.249.82.117 Report to Moderator	Creating electricity destroys the planet in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Welllllllllllllll, the radical environmentalists and tree huggers and militant vegetarians and some other liberal progressives loveeeeeee electric cars buttttttt They hate coal fired power plants used to charge them,,,,,,,,,,They absolutely despise Nuclear,,,,,,,,,Some despise wind generators because somewhere out west a bird got killed when he flew into a blade,,,,,,,,,,They despise hydro electric cuz a snail darter or a blind fish etc somewhere died due to the dam,,,,,,,,, THERES JUST NO WAY TO PLEASE THEM AND STILL HAVE ELECTRICITY I RECKON LOL And to make matters worse they dont like cows cuz they fart and create methane and are destroying the ozone layer and say red meat isnt healthy,,,,,,,,,They dont like cage fed fowl cuz thats animal cruelty,,,,,,,,,They dont like guns and hunters for darn sure Geeeeeeeeee what are we to do, starve I reckon so the animals have more habitat Nuff said (with tongue in cheek) Ol John T NOT a politcally correct kinda guy n dern proud of it also [Reply]  [No Email]
cannonball 09-13-2012 05:19:15 75.88.12.101 Report to Moderator	Re: Creating electricity destroys the planet in reply to John T, 09-12-2012 13:35:56   come on John, you know that you don't have to kill animals, just go to the market and buy it.. lol(with tongue in cheek) [Reply]  [No Email]
George Marsh 09-13-2012 04:33:14 50.104.213.108 Report to Moderator	Re: Creating electricity destroys the planet in reply to John T, 09-12-2012 13:35:56   JohnT, I agree, the smoke in the wires is destroying the planet. George [Reply]  [No Email]
John D Smith 09-12-2012 19:02:33 72.161.154.159 Report to Moderator	Re: Creating electricity destroys the planet in reply to John T, 09-12-2012 13:35:56   We wouldn't be living that good. In fact their goal is to destroy human life,period. That is the only viable solution when you don't believe in God. God put us here and told us that we have dominion over everything on earth. When you hate God, the only way they think they can give God the finger is to destroy all human life. Ole John [Reply]  [No Email]
RodInNS 09-12-2012 19:59:37 216.118.158.123 Report to Moderator	Re: Creating electricity destroys the planet in reply to John D Smith, 09-12-2012 19:02:33   Have no fear... there's idiots on both sides of the god divide... Rod [Reply]  [No Email]
Dean 09-12-2012 16:38:07 152.216.3.5 Report to Moderator	Re: Creating electricity destroys the planet in reply to John T, 09-12-2012 13:35:56   BINGO! Well said, John. Dean [Reply]  [No Email]
RodInNS 09-12-2012 16:29:52 216.118.158.123 Report to Moderator	Re: Creating electricity destroys the planet in reply to John T, 09-12-2012 13:35:56   You hit the nail on the head... If it was left up to these fools we'd be living in a sod hut wondering if we're going to starve to death or freeze to death. Rod [Reply]  [No Email]
Keith Molden 09-14-2012 05:42:38 167.239.87.198 Report to Moderator	Re: Creating electricity destroys the planet in reply to RodInNS, 09-12-2012 16:29:52   Nope, no sod houses. We'd be destroying the wetlands and some wildlife that resides in the dirt. I guess as long as we don't breathe eat or fart we could live suspended in thin air, LOL. Just my thoughts, Keith [Reply]  [No Email]
gtractorfan 09-12-2012 12:58:00 71.66.229.3 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Try googling "abandoned wind mills". You'll see there are over 14,000 abandoned windmills in the U.S. When subsidies end they're in trouble. We have a bunch of them in our neighborhood, seems like at least a fourth of the time they're not turning. [Reply]  [No Email]
Fred from MO 09-12-2012 12:55:50 24.119.63.178 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Wind is an alternative to the energy we have today, however it is not the solution. Having worked in both a Nuclear Power Plant and a coal fire power plant, the most environmentally friendly is Nuclear generation, however the media and localized events has caused everyone to panic so politically Nuclear is a bad word in our country. Wind only produces power when the wind blows. If you can live with on and off power then thats the way to go! Power generators act a lot like a governor in a tractor; as you go up a hill in your tractor your governor responds to increase the power of your engine to handle the load. Electric generation is much the same way; More people turn on the lights, the more the generator puts out. Throw in wind and it fowls up the load and generation balance. It would be like driving your tractor up a hill and instead the governor kicking it to give you more power, it will cause you to get another tractor to push you up the hill (not very cost effective) or when you dont need the power your governor launches you over the hill. Wind energy is touted by people who know nothing about energy production!!!!! The biggest joke is when the politicians talk about how its our savior. Dont get me wrong I like the idea of wind powering every thing in the world, however I have learned through science that I cant get my cake and eat it too. I would gather that most companies who have wind energy with the irradic nature of wind has caused them to turn on jet fuel (Combustion turbine) generators in hours where the wind has suddently died off and the load demand is still there. Running jet fuel generators is neither cost effective or environmentally good. But coal is one of the most abundant natural resources our country has and we have a reserve of coal to last us many generations in our country. But our administration has outlawed coal and taxed it to de-incetivise the use of it by most power companies. AS the power companies have to pay more for the main fuel to make power, the cost is past on to the consumer (you and me). IMO any energy rate increase hits the bottom line of any business and therfore makes our country struggle. The littler the business the more the impact. IMO the administration should clearly think about the regulation it is doing to our country and forcing a lot of business people out of their livelyhood!!! We are doing this to ourselves and we need to wake up as a country!!! Too many people have fought and died for what we are today!!! But we are starting to implode by the rules and regulations put upon ourselves!!! [Reply]  [No Email]
gtractorfan 09-12-2012 13:02:25 71.66.229.3 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Fred from MO, 09-12-2012 12:55:50   And... we're trying to save the planet by getting off coal generation... but meanwhile sell coal to China where they burn it the way we did decades ago! [Reply]  [No Email]
Fred from Mo 09-12-2012 18:30:56 70.195.0.150 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to gtractorfan, 09-12-2012 13:02:25   Yes sadly our most abundant natural resource is being sold to China were they burn it without the pollution control we have regulated in our country and the jet stream blows their pollution back on us. We are smart aint we? [Reply]  [No Email]
Wile E 09-12-2012 13:35:08 66.188.56.202 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to gtractorfan, 09-12-2012 13:02:25   Selling off large amounts of coal is real real stupid. We need it here to run electrical power turbines. [Reply]  [No Email]
LenND 09-12-2012 12:41:56 74.207.160.118 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   For $5000 plus per windmill per year they can put all they want on my land. I know a farmer that has two on his land --that's $10,000 a year. He has NO expense--none. Just two towers to turn out for. He farms to within about a hundred feet of the tower. He gets paid every year whether there is a drought, hale, wind or whatever. [Reply]  [No Email]
ldj 09-12-2012 11:20:28 64.123.133.193 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   OK, thanks everyone. From what is said here, wind power is a wast. I still don't think power is delivered underground. If it is it is because there just isn't enough being produced. I think they don't make enough power to justify big cross country wires. Why don't the power plants deliver their current under ground?? It would be much easier for them, 1 plant. Hundreds of windmills, it would be like a rat maze. I saw no evidence of them going under the hiway or in the fields. I thought about that so I did look.All proponents said wind is free. Well coal is free. You just got to pay to get it, Just like the wind, it is free, you just got to pay to get it to produce current. God gives us both the wind and coal. [Reply]  [No Email]
jackinok 09-13-2012 07:05:06 162.58.82.136 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 11:20:28   NO source of power generation is free,from wind ,solar, to the simple chemical reaction in your car battery. Anyone tells you this just walk away., The idea behind solar,or wind power,is that its renewable,not free. Winds going to blow,suns going to shine ,waves are going to hit the shore,water runs downhill, WHY NOT use them? Is it free? NO WAY! Will they ever pay for themselves?MAYBE NOT! Do they take wasted energy and turn it into something we can use?,YES. We have used the winds energy for years,pumping water,grinding flour etc,did those pay for themselves? Depends on your point of veiw i guess. Water pumping mills allowed folks to move into areas that otherwise would have been uninhabitable. Allowed settling and farming of much of the high plains that today feeds a substantial portion of the world. They also drove native species to extinction or near extiction,displaced native people,destroyed countless millions of acres of native grasslands,polluted water sheds, and the list goes on and on. So wheather or not those lowly windmills "PAID" for themselves is simply a matter of perspective. In a purely monetary sense yes they paid millions of times over! But it seems it falls on us, our children,and grandchildren to finally pay that cost of converting that power. I assure you i am no "GREENIE",but if the power source is there,its renewable,and can be harnessed I see no problems. Would i want to listen to one in my backyard?,no,gives me a headache!LOL. As a longtime farmer/rancher though i dont have any problem whatsoever with harnessing the sun ,water and wind. I do it everytime i plant and sell a crop,or take a calf to market! or in reality, hold a new grandbaby. [Reply]  [No Email]
Dean 09-12-2012 12:53:47 152.216.3.5 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 11:20:28   Actually, the cost of routing high voltage lines underground, though technically possible, is prohibitively expensive. Dean [Reply]  [No Email]
Fred from Mo 09-12-2012 18:26:07 70.195.0.150 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Dean, 09-12-2012 12:53:47   Running lines underground adds approx 9 times the cost to the project. [Reply]  [No Email]
jackinok 09-12-2012 12:05:45 162.58.82.136 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 11:20:28   your confusing transmission lines with distribution lines. transmission lines generaly come out of a power plant run for miles and miles sometimes coast to coast,which is why a power plant failure in arizona causes a blackout or brownout in new york city.common voltages would be something on the order of 169000+.the voltage have to be that high to make up for power losses due to the miles they run.these are normaly all overhead simply for ease of repair and fault finding. once they reach a distribution point they run into substations which lower the voltages normally in the 7200-20,000 range. lines out of the substation are very often underground,simply because if theres a failure its localized.these lines are called distribution lines.and the distributing system starts with them.these are the lines that you see beside the road running to the transformer on you pole,or to the pad mounted transformer on the ground.the transformer simply lowers voltage even further to the ones used in your shop or home. on a wind generating system since it is a multiple source system these lines can run under ground( though they often are in large conduits) even though voltages are high, simply because if you lose one it just shuts down and load switches to another local source. if these same lines running from a single source such as a generating plant goes down the tremendous loads on them often cause a cascade failure that takes out switching systems , other plants ,etc etc. and has at least the potential of taking down electrical systems in a large portion of a state or the country. normally,if their is such a thing, a wind farm would be wired into the distribution side of this so they could run a localized area,therefor relieving the load off the transmission system.but they can be miles and miles from the end energy user,and tie into that grid. another reason line are not overhead in a wind farm generally is they would be in the way of the mill tracking the wind.law requires these lines be a min of so many feet off the ground( used to be 25 feet at their lowest point) by having them overhead blade tip hieght would have to be more adding greatly to the cost of the towers etc. [Reply]  [No Email]
wisbaker 09-12-2012 10:57:43 207.118.164.33 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Do you know hydro-electric is not "clean" or "renewable" or "green" power? So let's call wind power is what it is "Politically Correct Power" Further more let's understand the folks mandating politically correct power are not engineers and lack sufficient math skills to balance a check book. I read an article about energy saving programs implemented by the State of Colorado in the state capital with stimulus funds. I was not impressed- simple payback (savings equal the purchase price) was between 60 and 80 years. Unfortunately the boilers and windows and solar collectors they have bought won't last 60 years. During the recent recall election and associated political upheaval here in Wisconsin the party out of power was bragging about all the "green" jobs their wind power initiatives would create, what they neglected to mention is all the jobs would be in Iowa where they have wind and laws that allow wind towers to actually be built. Here in Wisconsin we have real strong "not in my back yard (nimby)" laws [Reply]  [No Email]
Ken Macfarlane 09-12-2012 10:11:23 142.166.168.2 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Why the anger against them? I don't get it. Conventional plants cost a fortune to build and maintain, especially the small ones on a $/mW generating capacity. Most of them have subsidies in one form or another too. There's a place for almost all kinds of generation. Locally the oil fired plants are just giant sitting emergency generators. The 1300 mW one isn't run but 2 days a year due to oil costs. Got 100 guys paid to be there every day, million bucks of fuel in the tanks, have to heat the building all winter, taxes etc. [Reply]  [No Email]
Dean 09-12-2012 11:05:52 67.172.15.77 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Ken Macfarlane, 09-12-2012 10:11:23   Without question, the most cost effective ways to generate electricity are coal, natural gas and nuclear powered generating plants (ignoring hydro/electric due to limited number of appropriate sites). You doubt? Remove the subsidies, get the government out of the way and watch. That said, the federales have made it enormously expensive to build and operate such plants and continue to do so. Dean [Reply]  [No Email]
rustyfarmall 09-12-2012 12:36:54 67.55.162.174 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Dean, 09-12-2012 11:05:52   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Nuclear is by far the most efficient means of generating electricity, and the cleanest. Yes, there is that problem with the spent rods and such, but the researchers are making vast inroads on that problem, learning how to get even more energy out of those rods before it is no longer efficient to do so. Hopefully, in a few more years, we will see a few more nuke plants being built, it will take only a few, and then maybe those darned windmills will start coming down so we can grow corn and beans on that land. [Reply]  [No Email]
big fred 09-12-2012 17:26:05 174.21.201.158 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to rustyfarmall, 09-12-2012 12:36:54   Researchers making inroads? They've had breeder technology for decades. [Reply]  [No Email]
Dean 09-12-2012 12:51:00 152.216.3.5 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to rustyfarmall, 09-12-2012 12:36:54   Electrical generation wind turbines will prove to be a flash in the pan. Once the taxpayer subsidies are removed, they will no longer be built. Those in service may remain so until failure. It remains to be seen whether they will be dismantled once no longer operational or merely left as gastly decaying monuments to green nonsense. Dean [Reply]  [No Email]
Old Iowa 09-12-2012 10:36:11 208.126.196.144 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Ken Macfarlane, 09-12-2012 10:11:23   Then anger is because my electric bill is going up because of the wind power. Mandated quotas for renewable energy. Never mind that the technology does not exist to product it at any ways near a competitive price. I am paying again in my taxes through all the "renewable energy" subsidies. So I get to pay double and triple for an inferior product. That is what is causing the anger. Also cooking the books to make the renewable energy look better makes me mad. People talk about how a wind mill will pay back in 8-10 years. Well the first lie is that pay back number is AFTER huge government subsidies. Plus they never mention that the wind mills working life is just about the pay back time. So we pay subsidies and I do mean direct subsidies. Not the new tax deduction called subsidy. What do I mean by that??? Well an oil company spends 100 million of is own money(or investor money. Key being ZERO government money) drilling a new well. Then it depreciates the expense against any current profit it has. The current crowd in DC is calling that a Government subsidy because of the "lost" tax money. They think that money earned is all theirs. Even before you pay anything. That would be like me buying a yard full of feeder steers. Then the government calling me taking that as an expense a tax sudsidy. It is what the current crowd is doing. If you think I am lying. Find where the government pays any oil company a subsidy for drilling oil. Brazil does not count as we all know that we gave them money to drill but shut down drilling here on Government land. Much of this renewable energy hog wash is just crony capitalism at its worst. Can any one say Solyndra??? Nearly 500 million dollars of tax dollars GONE!!!! Then you ask why we are mad??? LMAO [Reply]  [No Email]
rustyfarmall 09-12-2012 10:59:49 67.55.162.174 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Old Iowa, 09-12-2012 10:36:11   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see I agree 100%, and watching those things make me naseous, dizzy, and then I have a headache for the rest of the day. It is impossible to NOT look at them when they line both sides of the road for several miles, and that is the only road that will take me where I need to be. [Reply]  [No Email]
Old Iowa 09-12-2012 10:01:05 208.126.196.144 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   I say send all those that like them to their own state/place and let them have all of it they want buttt when it is zero and the winds is still don't let them use any of the unclean" coal,nature gas or nuclear generated energy. Here is some things to think about. Wind generated electric costs 2-3 times as much as the other sources. It is not available 100% of the time. The current technology does not make it competitive. It may never be. I think it is a total waste of resources. It makes people "feel" good. Let the electric go off for a few days and see if they will still be happy with wind mills???? So we still have to have real sources that can provide 100% of the electric needs for the no wind days. Hydro power is a much better way to go as far as reliability. It costs less than wind but still double coal or natural gas. We need to use what resources we "really" have. Just because some power on high says this is how it is going to be does not make it so. Just think about the fuel average just announced. How do you think it is going to be met??? We don't have the technology to do it but the powers that be says we can do it. It is kind of like working on something with a person looking over your shoulder that has zero knowledge. They are full of reasons why you are not doing the repair correctly but have NO real experience doing it. To the guy below that stated his OK coop was a 1/3 wind. That is a number I find hard to believe. In Iowa it is about 5-7% on windy days. Also the guy stating we only use 18% of the wind power. That is not a real number either. It has been disproved in several studies as a number just thrown out in a Congressional committee meeting. The Press took it and ran it as gospel. [Reply]  [No Email]
jackinok 09-12-2012 11:00:40 162.58.82.136 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Old Iowa, 09-12-2012 10:01:05   iowa has far more customers,and less wind farms.also this is just ONE energy producing coop that has invested heavily into wind power,NOT the whole state. hydro power is limited here lots of times,simply because water is not there.the current drought accross 60+ percent of the midwest is a good example. wind is a viable alternative ,but as you say expensive.I'm not saying i like to pay for it either, but its here,its going to stay,and its far better than NOTHING!!LOL [Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR 09-12-2012 09:17:58 72.181.173.171 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Diydave, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Well,.........sometimes they smoke less than coal fired plants...sometimes.. https://www.google.com/search?q=wind+turbine+fire&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Roq&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ZrRQUKeTFcPQ2AWdr4G4BQ&ved=0CCAQsAQ&biw=853&bih=469 [Reply]  [No Email]
sourgum 09-12-2012 09:17:13 198.228.201.148 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Trip to Penfield, IL this summer, came across a wind farm under construction 10 miles south of there. Counted 55 towers what I could see from the highway. The distribution lines were underground, no overhead. Lots of jobs created, people working on them. Truckers bringing in parts of towers. Someone making tower parts at a factory got a job. Probably some gov't incentive to do that but lots of tax breaks are given to big oil also. Those towers would be owned by private energy corporations and probably leasing the land from willing farmers. Wind power is coming in the future maybe 1-2% or more of total. [Reply]  [No Email]
jackinok 09-12-2012 09:01:23 162.58.82.136 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   went to the annual meeting of the coop here a few weeks ago.they supply power to a large percentage of oklahoma and a large part of texas. according to the lastest numbers the electricity we use,comes 1/3 from fuel type sources,1/3 from windpower,and 1/3 from hydro electric. so they do produce a significant amount of power. lines are all around here underground, allowing folks to farm etc around towers more conveniently. the MAIN problem with them is there is not any real convenient way of storing the power they produce,so they operate more or less on a demand type deal. most of our electric plants, here any way , now burn natural gas as fuel. and all their plants will be converted to natural gas by 2020 if i recall correctly. no way is wind going to eliminate coal,or natural gas generating plants, simply because theres lots of days the wind simply isnt there. the priority goes like this basicaly,when you turn on a switch or demand increases, call goes to the wind system,if the demand cannot be met in full there, it switches to hydro,if the demand still cannot be met it goes to the fuel fired plants. overall its a good idea,and so far pretty reliable,theres been very few catastrophic failures of the wind generators themselves. but they are mechanical systems that require upkeep,trained technicians etc,and its very expensive to put these up,running into the millions each in lots of cases.add in also that that the land is normaly leased and that runs the cost up even further. wind power does make sense,but like all things "green" its expensive.my own electric bill has gone up nearly double from 20- 35$ on just the basic charge, in the last year and i expect it to increase more as more and more wind generation fields come on line. [Reply]  [No Email]
Earl Gray 09-12-2012 08:58:30 68.235.89.1 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   The power lines are underground. The fuel is free. They are low maintenance. They don't pollute, how many more reasons do you need! [Reply]  [No Email]
JF in CT 09-12-2012 10:03:42 96.32.13.19 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Earl Gray, 09-12-2012 08:58:30   How do you define low maintainence? Talking to some of the people who install them they say they don't pay for themselves because they are finding the transmissions last only about 5 years. [Reply]  [No Email]
jon f mn 09-12-2012 09:32:45 70.194.73.247 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to Earl Gray, 09-12-2012 08:58:30   Well, other than the electricity from wind costs the consumers twice what others do you mean? We are already seeing the increase, but that will get worse once the tax breaks are done. [Reply]  [No Email]
Russ from MN 09-12-2012 10:32:37 68.235.89.1 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to jon f mn, 09-12-2012 09:32:45   You must be talking about North Star Electric, and Minnkota, they are blaming their high prices on wind power when it is really poor management making bad decisions! [Reply]  [No Email]
JMS/.MN 09-12-2012 08:30:45 209.237.125.241 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   When you see some not working- they are unwinding. The control computer makes them follow the wind. They can make 4 turns in one direction before they need to unwind the cables that bring the electricity to the ground. Stop and watch them for awhile. You"ll see them unwind. [Reply]  [No Email]
David G 09-12-2012 08:27:36 204.29.138.33 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   The good news is that after 7-9 years the only cost is maintenance, no raw material are needed. I believe we are looking at wind for about 10% of our energy. They do create a LOT of jobs building and erecting them. [Reply]  [No Email]
big fred 09-12-2012 08:21:39 174.21.205.202 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   Something good about wind power? Well, it can reduce (by a small amount) the amount of oil we import from the middle east, but of course, they are built with large amounts of rare earth materials, which we have to import from China (China controls something like 97% of rare earth materials production). [Reply]  [No Email]
Hotflashjr 09-12-2012 08:07:15 199.144.39.28 Report to Moderator	Re: OT Windmills OT in reply to ldj, 09-12-2012 07:19:38   It's not just that easy to say what they generate. It could be a hundred killowatts all the way up to a few megewatts. The last project I took part in was going to be a 3 megawatt turbine at a cost of about $300,000 up front including all permits and site work. After grants and tax credits actual amount spent by the owner was going to be around $180,000 with an anticipated payback of 7-9 years. The wires all run down inside the turbine and into a box or small building at the base of the turbine. From there it goes into the grid. Lots of places the current power lines cannot take large solar panel projects of wind turbines because the wires at the street cannot handle the current generated. Solar panels on a building roof unless it is real small need phase 3 equipment all the way down the road so there are ways that solar or wind has its drawbacks. A plus, it cost nothing to obtain wind or sunshine which should help lower elec costs. The minus is the loss of jobs in other areas. I personally like wind and solar and the fact is that the current grid can only handle 18% of total elec production from wind and solar sources. Last stat I heard was the country was at like 3%. Even at 18% that leaves 82% that needs to be generated by other sources. I think there is plenty of room for everyone. I do think they should become clean burning because I would like my little girl to live in a cleaner environment than we do. I am not by any means a hippie or environmentalist so please don't flame me as such. [Reply]  [No Email]