- Thread starter Puddles
- Start date
trucker 40
Member
Good looking weld,done right,and per the gauge the right size and the weld broke,although not right in the center,seems more to the top part of the weld,unless it was just the picture making it look that way.I think that it is evident that the leverage that stick welder was talking about had some part to play in it.I know its hard to break a weld like that.I still think it ought to penetrate in the center better somehow and pull the steel instead of break the weld.
Maybe I can look for a while and see what I can find about this.
Maybe I can look for a while and see what I can find about this.
trucker 40
Member
I looked and am still looking,but here is a forum where they are talking about MIG welding.Once they get it set right the weld wont break.Now Ill have to look some more,but my idea is that the reason the weld is breaking is because the weld is thinner than the plate.I see from looking that your corners bent some,now thats good,but the whole plate should have bent.I could also be wrong because stick welders idea of the leverage makes sense and a MIG set right does penetrate very well.You were right there is not a lot about this.
http://weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/t-11222.html
http://weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/t-11222.html
trucker 40
Member
More here! Im starting to get the opinion that the weld should not break and the metal should bend first again.The only thing that is messing up my opinion is the leverage idea from stick welder.I think it should bend instead of break though and I know you had a ahrd time breaking that weld,but I still think it shouldnt have broke and the metal should have torn instead.I could be wrong,but I dont think so.I think the weld should act like a gusset as it says in the other forum and that it should not break if its of equal size compared to the steel.I think after looking at the pictures that your weld is just a touch skimpy and thats why it broke rather than the base metal.
http://www.rittercnc.com/welding/7018-rods-question-9651-6.htm
http://www.rittercnc.com/welding/7018-rods-question-9651-6.htm
Based on what has been said on 7018 I went and got 10# of it today in 3/32" from TSC... I am jigging up an incinerator for the farm and I have been using 6013 in 1/8" because that is what is on hand... I'm welding 11 gauge steel plate - new steel, no rust, etc... The welder is a Lincoln Square wave 175 set for DC negative at 110 amps...
Anyway, the 7018 makes a nice looking weld without the heavy flux gobs and pin holes I get with 6013... But, and it is a big but, the 7018 is hard to start the arc... A fresh stick usually starts with a couple of firm scratches before it gets going, but once you stop for a moment and go to restart the stick you can actually beat the tip of the stick hard against the steel 3 or 4 times before it will strike... One time I had to hit it so hard to get it going the stick shattered the flux and I had to go to a new stick.... And the 7018 is a noisy, sputtering arc very different from the 6013...
The 6013 starts like a dream... I can see the halo of current already reaching for the steel once the tip gets about 3/8" from it and then I get a nice quiet arc with no fuss...
Basically, I like the weld 7018 makes, but I don't like the way it welds... Any suggestions?
denny-o in Mich...
Anyway, the 7018 makes a nice looking weld without the heavy flux gobs and pin holes I get with 6013... But, and it is a big but, the 7018 is hard to start the arc... A fresh stick usually starts with a couple of firm scratches before it gets going, but once you stop for a moment and go to restart the stick you can actually beat the tip of the stick hard against the steel 3 or 4 times before it will strike... One time I had to hit it so hard to get it going the stick shattered the flux and I had to go to a new stick.... And the 7018 is a noisy, sputtering arc very different from the 6013...
The 6013 starts like a dream... I can see the halo of current already reaching for the steel once the tip gets about 3/8" from it and then I get a nice quiet arc with no fuss...
Basically, I like the weld 7018 makes, but I don't like the way it welds... Any suggestions?
denny-o in Mich...
trucker 40
Member
Get a flat file and hit the end of the rod before you go to strike an arc.A 4 inch grinder works too,or just tap it on a concrete floor.The flux is kind of like plastic where it melts over the end of the rod.You can also weld the whole rod as much as possible.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
You're on the wrong polarity for one thing. 7018 runs on reverse polarity or AC only. It runs poorly and makes weird noises on straight polarity. It is way, way stronger than 6013 though. 6010(6011) would also be a good choice for 11 gauge. You'd get good penetration and higher welding speeds which would reduce warping. You could even do it downhand with great results and the required strength. It is common for a little slag to form on the end of 7018 after welding. Tap it on the concrete floor or on your chipping hammer or a file before restriking an arc. Just make sure what ever you tap it on isn't touching the grounded work piece or it will arc. Experienced welders just tap it harder on the work when they want to restrike an arc but it takes a little practice. Stray arcs are a big no no. 7018 should weld pretty easy on your square wave 175. On 11 gauge material, you need to think about warping. Do a weld in one area then move somewhere else to lessen any warping from the plate getting too hot from a continuous weld. Once it's cooled off you can come back to the first weld.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
A break beside the weld could be from several reasons. Undercut or too convex of a weld resulting in a notch effect would be the most obvious visual indications.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
OMG, OMG Trucker!!!! Now your critsizing Puddles welding skills and saying it was a flaw in his welding procedure that caused it to break (more or less down the middle). That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read! While I'm sure he did it rather quickly and could have it made it a little nicer if it was an actual test, there isn't an inspector on the planet that wouldn't pass his weld! It should break exactly the same way if it would have been done with MIG. Here's something to really consider. The fillet weld break test is an accepted basic test for welding skill. If it didn't matter where the weld broke, it wouldn't be much of a test would it? Especially not an accepted method of testing a weld. I would hazard a guess that in his lifetime, Puddles has burned several tons of 7018. He's probably burned more rod in a month than you have in your entire lifetime yet you're questioniong his welding ability? You're even saying his weld is skimpy, when he used a fillet weld gauge to show it's the right size. Trucker, you were wrong! How dillusional can you get? Holy Moly. I better put on a helmet or I'm going to scratch a hole through my my scalp or get whiplash from shaking my head.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I just took another look at Puddles pictures and his weld is even a little oversize. The only thing messing up your opinion is that you're too stubborn to admit you were wrong. You can look on any forum you want but it won't change that fact. Big thanks to Puddles for doing that. If that's not conclusive, I don't know what is.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I can guess what it will be... Is the guy that thinks the weld should rip out of the base metal out of his mind?
trucker 40
Member
Now look at the picture of where his weld broke.Its skimpy.The picture is not lying.Puddles is a good welder.I dont know what the problem is but the weld is a touch skimpy,which makes the plate stronger.I think the plate should have bent and the weld broke off on one side or the other.If it was welded with a MIG and done right it would have broken like that because the MIG weld is stiffer,wont bend.However if his 7018 weld was the same thickness as the plate it should have broke the steel not the weld.Also I suppose you just disregarded the 2 other posts of the forums where they said the same thing after some discussion? Basically on the MIG forum they said the weld should act like a gusset and pull the weld out of the steel.On the other one they say it should bend the plate and take a lot of beating and should not break the weld but beside it.
I know Ive welded tons of 7018.Its just a long time ago.
I cant believe you are saying this stuff and went to all that welding school?
I am just having a discussion with Puddles and not trying to say his weld is bad,its just a little bit thinner than the plate he is welding.Im sure it would pass,and Im sure he was in a hurry and all,but if it was a little bit thicker I think it would have bent the plate at least and probably pulled the weld out of the steel.
I know Ive welded tons of 7018.Its just a long time ago.
I cant believe you are saying this stuff and went to all that welding school?
I am just having a discussion with Puddles and not trying to say his weld is bad,its just a little bit thinner than the plate he is welding.Im sure it would pass,and Im sure he was in a hurry and all,but if it was a little bit thicker I think it would have bent the plate at least and probably pulled the weld out of the steel.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Trucker, you're embarrassing yourself. "the weld is a touch skimpy,which makes the plate stronger." That statement makes as much sense as a screen door on a submarine! I guess a lot of structures should have used skimpier welds so the plate would be stronger. Puddles weld is slightly larger than required to get the same strength as the steel. Too large of weld is a flaw as well as it gives an over estimation of strength and can be weaker than the proper size weld for various reasons. If a fillet weld break occurs at the edge of the weld is a weld flaw, guaranteed, no matter what welding process was used! What websites are looking for information on anyway, Ripley's believe it or not? Here's a tip, don't believe what wannabe's with no credentials are posting on forums.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Puddles, what machine did you weld that with?
trucker 40
Member
Its plain to me that its a little thinner than the plate,which means the leverage that beating on it put on it,the plate was able to break the weld and not that the weld was bigger than the plate,and then the weld wouldnt have broke,the plate would bend and it would tear out of the steel.Its obvious to me its you that is too stubborn to realize that.If Im wrong I will admit it.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Trucker, do you know how to determine the proper size of fillet weld for a given thickness of plate? Do you know how fillet welds are measured?It is one of the most basic and easiest formula's used in welding. It is the same formula engineers use when designing for welding. Putting in a larger weld does not increase strength of the assembly and wastes filler metal. Here's a pretty easy test for you.
What size of fillet welds would be required to achieve the same strength as the plate in the following examples.
A. 1/4" plate to 1/4" plate
B. 3/8" plate to 3/8" plate
C. 1/4" plate to 3/8" plate
D. 3/8" plate to 1/4" plate
E. 1/4" plate to 1/2" plate
F. 3/8" plate to 1/2" plate
G. 1/2" plate to 5/16" plate
I hope someone else doesn't post the answers first. Any welder would know the answers off the top of their head. Knowing this basic information would give you a better understanding of why Puddles weld wasn't skimpy by any means. Until you understand fillet welds, it's pointless trying to explain the purpose of a simple fillet weld test.
What size of fillet welds would be required to achieve the same strength as the plate in the following examples.
A. 1/4" plate to 1/4" plate
B. 3/8" plate to 3/8" plate
C. 1/4" plate to 3/8" plate
D. 3/8" plate to 1/4" plate
E. 1/4" plate to 1/2" plate
F. 3/8" plate to 1/2" plate
G. 1/2" plate to 5/16" plate
I hope someone else doesn't post the answers first. Any welder would know the answers off the top of their head. Knowing this basic information would give you a better understanding of why Puddles weld wasn't skimpy by any means. Until you understand fillet welds, it's pointless trying to explain the purpose of a simple fillet weld test.
I used the Lincoln Invertec 350-Pro. Hot start set on 9, arc force set on 0. 120-amps 1/8-inch Excalibur 7018 right out of the oven.
Trucker the top plate bent flat over the bottom plate, and the weld didn't break! I had to put both plates in the vice, and beat the top plate back the other direction to get the two plates to separate. That was the purpose of this picture. The plate on top in this picture is actually the base plate, note the heat line down the center. Look at the bottom plate, see how the mil scale is flaking? That's from the top plate being bent from impact.
Here's the picture of the two plates in the vice, before I broke the top plate off. Look close you can still see the weld intact! The top plate is in the jaws of the vice, note how it is bent from impact. If you ask me that was a very strong weld.
According to you it didn't pass. But I'll accept these results. :wink:
Trucker the top plate bent flat over the bottom plate, and the weld didn't break! I had to put both plates in the vice, and beat the top plate back the other direction to get the two plates to separate. That was the purpose of this picture. The plate on top in this picture is actually the base plate, note the heat line down the center. Look at the bottom plate, see how the mil scale is flaking? That's from the top plate being bent from impact.
Here's the picture of the two plates in the vice, before I broke the top plate off. Look close you can still see the weld intact! The top plate is in the jaws of the vice, note how it is bent from impact. If you ask me that was a very strong weld.
According to you it didn't pass. But I'll accept these results. :wink:
trucker 40
Member
Wow!I see the bend now.Now thats what Im talking about!I guess I was wrong and the leverage did cause the weld to break,but it was not easy to break it and bent the plate.You cant get much better than that.I did see where the corner was bent a little at first,but it was bent more than I thought where you pointed it out.
"Here's a tip, don't believe what wannabe's with no credentials are posting on forums. " Sounds like you Dave. Oh I know you got your tickets.
Prove it! Post pictures of them.
"Trucker, you're embarrassing yourself" You're the one that is embarrassing themselves Dave.
You need to wipe off your nose! You have a lot of Puddles dirt on it with a little Lanse mixed in.
It sure is funny, whenever anyone dares to question Puddles or Lanse you jump all over them and berate them. Oh MY GOD how DARE you question Puddles?
Dave you embarrass yourself and look like a fool every time you jump to their defense. Their big boys let them defend themselves.
You portray yourself as a hot rod welder and spew advice and know how to every welding post on here. But you had to ask how to fix a broken backhoe that required welding. Dave you can talk the talk but you can't walk the walk.
You, Dave are the Cliff Clavin of this forum.
Sam give Cliff another beer.
Scott
Prove it! Post pictures of them.
"Trucker, you're embarrassing yourself" You're the one that is embarrassing themselves Dave.
You need to wipe off your nose! You have a lot of Puddles dirt on it with a little Lanse mixed in.
It sure is funny, whenever anyone dares to question Puddles or Lanse you jump all over them and berate them. Oh MY GOD how DARE you question Puddles?
Dave you embarrass yourself and look like a fool every time you jump to their defense. Their big boys let them defend themselves.
You portray yourself as a hot rod welder and spew advice and know how to every welding post on here. But you had to ask how to fix a broken backhoe that required welding. Dave you can talk the talk but you can't walk the walk.
You, Dave are the Cliff Clavin of this forum.
Sam give Cliff another beer.
Scott
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