Propane Refill

Anybody ever use one of the adapters to refill small camp stove/torch cylinders from a BBQ grill tank? Does it work well? Do they burn as long after refilling as they do when bought new from the store?

Long time listener, first time caller.
Tom N OH

I refill my own 20# tanks, and fifteen years ago I tried to do the little ones. If I remember right you were to place it in a deep freeze, then fill it right after that. I had one leak around that little button, and we used the heater inside the pickup cab to warm up. I got scared, and now just watch for sales.

How does one go about filling their own 20's?

just filled 8 of'em,,, probably have done 50,,, don't try and over do it, read the directions,,, you can leave the bottle on 2 long and over fill it,,, thats not good and were folks run into leaker's with liquid come'n out the bottle instead of vapor it will freeze the shut off valve open,,, I like mine 4 sure a money saver,,, always look'n for used bottles and don't tell'em why I want'em,,, once kin folk find out they will worrie ya to death about refills (grin)

If you overfill just put the bottle back on the LP tank rite side up and wait a min for the check valve to thaw,,, don't refill use it till its runs out and refill,,, I have not lost a bottle yet once i figgered this trick out

I don't personally know much about filling the little ones but it must be pretty dangerous. I live about 3 miles from the Coleman Co. factory where they fill the little ones and about every 18 to 24 months they have an explosion at the filling area there. A couple of weeks ago the guy filling them (the little Coleman propane cylinders) got life-threatening burns in a flash fire and a couple of years ago an explosion in the same area took out part of the factory wall. If Coleman can't do it reliably and safely I don't see how a home-engineered solution can be a lot better.

Must B a mass production thang,,, the home brew refill is nothing more are less than what you would do to hook it up to a appliance of your choice,,, it can b over done READ the directions,,, send me your empty bottles C N as you are not going to use'em

Unless you are weighing the bottles as they fill. You have no way of knowing if they are being overfilled.
It appears you don't care about safety and don't understand basic fluid dynamics and chemistry.

You have to have a liquid valve on your tank. I have the original valve, and a additional valve in case of a leakey valve. I purchased mine twenty years ago when it was not against the law to sell them.

When I started I think there was alot of savings. I think they were getting like $18.00 at the camp grounds, and you got about three dollars worth of gas.

Anyway you simply couple them together with the hose and open the 20# tank valve, then the one on the big tank.

I am to tight to open the little screw on the 20# tank because it wasted a cloud of vapor gas.
I just let mine sit a day or so, and then shut them off and bingo. If you need to fill in a hurry you open the screw, and probably three munites later it is full. I'm not sure on the time, because it has been years since I turned the bleed screw.

I am very carefull, and have alot of tanks (older ones without the over fill float). I fill them in the spring and let them sit in the hot sun all summer so if they pop off, it would not be inside a heated building in the winter where we use them.

At auctions the old ones go for nothing, and I can afford that price. LP places are not allowed to refil them.

One intersting note, I took one of my big torches to start grass fires with the fire department. I had no luck as the flame was only a real lazy one. It always tosed a 3" blue flame 6-8 inches before. I had just purchased this new one because the other two were doing the same thing. Come to find out the new tanks have to be opened real slow or a slam valve shuts it down.

I use the torches to start rubbish fires on the job site, and to start my wood furnace.

There is no reason you can't make your own hose, other than it is against the law. Any gas grill will have the left hand threads to screw into your 20# tank.

For what those little bottles cost new it isn't worth the risk. I learned to respect compressed flammable gas a long time ago.
R.I.P. Donny.

cuzz,,, Just for you I have weighed and got it down to a fudgen science,,, read the directions its plainly stated for those that care to read :roll:

Why don't you explain it basic fluid dynamics and chemistry,,, I am sure others would like to know how it applies here

A buddy of mine has a cabin up in the Sierras. It's in a little pocket of private land surrounded by government land, so the nearest store is about 50 miles away and nearly a two hour drive. So he can't just pop over to Kmart when he needs gas for his grill, torch or lantern. He uses refillable propane cylinders and fills them off his bulk tank. These cylinders have a valve that you open to release the gas and so you can tell when they're full. Filling them is no different than filling a propane tractor off a bulk tank: when liquid comes out the relief valve, shut off the inlet and then shut of the relief.

I wouldn't be surprised if you can't buy these cylinders anymore, however. I certainly would not refill a disposable cylinder. They just don't cost that much. If I'm using something like a camp stove that uses a lot of gas, I just hook up a barbecue tank with an adapter in place of the cylinder.

Here's a couple of links but on behalf of the other posters and readers on this topic. Odds are slim that will understand any of the data. Odds also are high,even if you did understand the data. Your indifference to safety and belief that you are above incident, accident and injury. Prevents you from seeing the truth due to denial of being mortal.

It goes like this in simplistic terms. Over filled tank. Increased temp. Increased pressure.Insufficient expansion area. Increasing pressure therefore either the thinwall tank fails due to multiple pressure cycles. Or the relief valve opens. A jet of cryogenic propane liquid and/or vapour is released. Person suffers either frostbite to what ever and any part of the body impacted. Lp vapour will ignite due to an ignition source when between it's UEL and LEL. Resulting explosion causes personal and property damage. Resulting fire will likely impinge upon LP tank. LP tank will "BLEVE". Think you had problems before the bleve? How about after?
Keep a link open to the darwin site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_der_Waals_equation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane

I am still refilling disposable cylinders my grandfather used in the 1960's. I never blead them, just let them run empty then ballance with of a 20 lp bottle. The 20 lb bottle gets filled with the 1000 gal house tank. I don't think they hold as much gas as a new one but I have many so I don't care. My farm is 20 miles from the store so I don't have to stop my important pipe thawing (farm is in North Dakota) or soldering job to run for refills. This matters because if I went to town to buy some I would brobably end up in the bar. Those cylinders are heck fun to shoot with 30-06 tracer rounds.

Buick,

I hope you don't mind a little nit-pick here. Propane is not a cyrogenic gas. The expanded vapor is still cold but does not reach the -238F or -150C threshold to make that classification. Carbon dioxide and freon are also not cryogenic gases.

Examples of a cryogenic gas are helium, hydrogen, neon, nitrogen, oxygen, argon, and natural gas. I am sure there are others gases but these were the Dewars (storage tanks) I used to work on for an OEM in NH. Some of the tanks were over 70,000 gallons on the inner vessel. Most were in the 10,000 gallon range.

It is actually impossible to sustain liquid helium for more than a split second. It will only liquify at absolute zero. The helium is mixed with another gas to raise its boiling point.

I agree that they have to be weighed and you have to know the empty and full weights. I have my propane filling license. In the course I took, they showed some pictures of tanks that exploded because they were overfilled. They also showed pictures of people who were badly burned from propane. Not because it caught fire but because propane boils at a very low temperature. Thats how a cylinder generates its own pressure. After I took the course, I really wondered why people aren't warned more about how potentially dangerous propane can be. I've seen people just throw the tanks around with all their tools and stuff in the back of a truck. Propane is something that needs to be respected because it can cause serious injury and death. Dave

Ive seen one of these small cylinders go right thru a wall during a house fire.There was a loud bang and a smoke trail.It went at a high angle so no one was hurt.A fork lift tank went thru a wall and took off a firemans leg at a fire. years ago.We always tried to get propane cylinders off and away from the building during a fire.Ive seen tank venting during a fire.Propane barbeques are some thing I wont use. I notice these firebombs on decks right against a house wall.One of the older firemen told me He has seen a big propane cylinder up in the air spinning like a helicopter blade.I survived 35 years on our vol, dept,too old now and glad of it.

Hello buickanddeere,
Wardner is right! I hope you don't my my explanation. Propane is not a cryogenic in any form liquid or gas. Its boiling tempterature at atmospheric pressure is -44 degrees F.
The beginning of cryogenic range starts at -250 degrees F: -219 degrees Rankin, -157degrees Celius; 116 degrees K (absolute C scale)
Propane is a group 3 refrigerant (Combustibles) Propane is designated as R-290.
Guifo.

Hello buickanddeere,
Wardner is right! I hope you don't my my explanation. Propane is not a cryogenic in any form liquid or gas. Its boiling tempterature at atmospheric pressure is -44 degrees F.
The beginning of cryogenic range starts at -250 degrees F: -219 degrees Rankin, -157degrees Celius; 116 degrees K (absolute C scale)
Propane is a group 3 refrigerant (Combustibles) Propane is designated as R-290.
Guido.

Actually, helium boils at 4.2 degrees Kelvin.

I know people will do what they want anyway and maybe even get away with it at least until they don't[it only takes once]. But here's a couple more facts FYI. To fill with liquid you have to misuse the 20# cylinder [the presure relief valve should always be up above the liquid line] and I know most likly nobody would ever find out but it is against the law to transport a refilled throw-away cylinder, big fines, so the DOT must not think they're very safe.

I'm with Hobo. I refill mine. I screw them on the 20lb tank, turn it over, open the valve, when I can't hear the gas flowing any more I close the valve. I don't try to vent the small ones. Takes only a few seconds. I don't get as much in them as they had when bought from the store. I just fill them a little more often. The other thing is COMMON SENSE. I don't refill in the garage or anywhere there is an ignition source. I figure since I know how to handle refrigerant safely, I can do this safely too.

Brian, I fill the small ones just like you do. I have been doing it for years. Like you said, you can never get in as much as new. Maybe a little over half full. Funny thing, yesterday I was in a Northern Tool store and saw one of those refill adapters hanging on the rack.

(quoted from post at 01:33:34 01/26/09) Anybody ever use one of the adapters to refill small camp stove/torch cylinders from a BBQ grill tank? Does it work well? Do they burn as long after refilling as they do when bought new from the store?

Long time listener, first time caller.
Tom N OH

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I spec I should have wrote a book on how to fill'em,,, like all men I read the directions then fudged a little to Pack all I could in the bottle,,, yes you can over do it so by going by the directions will keep the bottle from over filling,,, if you git one that does not fill live with it read the directions,,, you can weigh a new'n or look on the bottle it has the weight wrote on it,,, its not good advice 2 hook a leaker back to the tank (dangers fool ) just put it some were safe to vent,,,, I have not had a leaker since I played by the rules,,,, I use a bottle a week most of the time,,, depends on how many drivability issues I have ,,, at $4 a pop I have saved alot of money,,, worst case in a emergency I don't have to fight off the folks at wall-mart for the bottles,,, for the Leary you can buy a hose to go from the tank to the bottle and weigh it while fill'n if it makes you feel better,,, I rubbed on a adapter every time I passed one at Northern tool for a few years for I brought one,,, I also got the hose to hook my stove and lite to a LP tank,,, I keep too 100 lb cylinders and 5 are so 20 lb tanks for just in case,,, I have been with out power for weeks and can survive,,, my LP supplier fills'em at the same rate as my 330 shop tank,,, @1.49 a gal I will take my chances fill'n them $4 bottles for 37 cents

I wish you luck. I hope you aren't the subject of any of my safty meetings in the future. Saving a few hundred dollars just doesn't seem worth the risk to me but to each his own I guess.

Regarding a vessel of liquid LP and suddenly ruptures. The escaping gas and liquid drops to -40F.
That's cold enough to instantly freeze flesh.Close enough to cryogenic when trying to explain the danger in layman's terms.