Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Tool Talk Discussion Forum

PHOSPHORIC ACID

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
FARMIN RED

06-07-2004 10:54:03




Report to Moderator

Where does on find phosphoric acid? I have used it with the gas tank sealant kits but i don't know where to find it otherwise. does anyone know if you dilute jit with water or use it full strength. I am going to use it after a lye gravy application to strip paint off of parts. one other question. Will the phosphate coating left on the metal affect any priming of parts with a urathane primer?

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
RandyB

06-08-2004 10:17:13




Report to Moderator
 Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to FARMIN RED, 06-07-2004 10:54:03  
You also find it sold as Naval Jelly rust remover



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Keith-OR

06-07-2004 23:07:20




Report to Moderator
 Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to FARMIN RED, 06-07-2004 10:54:03  
You can find it under the name of OSPHO at most hardware stores ,That is what ACE HardWare carries. Another is RUSTLESS put out by KLM Manufacturing Corp.If you cannot find those try giving "FIT" a holler on the Case forum. Phosphoric acid converts red rust to black oxide, also stop flash rust on freshing striped iron parts. Has never effected any of my paint jobs over the years !!!!!

Good luck

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

06-08-2004 09:04:00




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to Keith-OR, 06-07-2004 23:07:20  
My understanding is that phosphoric acid, in order to leave the oxide coating, has to have rust to react with. If he is removing paint, and the surface is clean underneath (no guarantee), then the acid has nothing to react with and is not needed. However, there are phosphoric acid products that can be left on the bare metal to protect from rust until painting, if the parts have to sit for a while -- one is Picklex 20. But, I would not use straight phosphoric acid for this purpose.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Keith-OR

06-08-2004 22:14:50




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to CNKS, 06-08-2004 09:04:00  
Think you are wrong about having to have rust to react with, I have a 1948 Allis Chalmers C that I striped with paint remover. Used the remover to soften the old paint then power wash it to remove paint, Quick way of doing things. After which time I srayed on OSPHO too stop any flash rust. Well needed the shop space for a more important job. Had to push Allis outside, was hoping could get it back in before a rain storm, did not make it, turned all the bare metel a grayish white,and NO RUST. still outside with many rain storms since 1st of April, still no rust. It is going back in the shop tomorrow, to put on 3 point Hitch that I build for it and finish preping for paint next week (wishful thinking).

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

06-09-2004 11:35:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to Keith-OR, 06-08-2004 22:14:50  
I think the confusion is due to my interpretation of Phosphoric acid. I took that to mean the the chemical H3PO4 (3 and 4 are subscripts, computer will not do them) with no modification. Ospho is apparantly a formulation designed to be used as you used it. I know nothing about Ospho. My comment was intended to be that straight phosphoric acid was not intended to be a conversion coating. I use Picklex 20 to stop flash rust, apparantly Ospho is better.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
paul

06-10-2004 12:07:14




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to CNKS, 06-09-2004 11:35:32  
I believe the straight acid does not convert rust, but the products listed use other ingrediants to do so, as you say.

--->Paul



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
kyhayman

06-07-2004 20:05:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to FARMIN RED, 06-07-2004 10:54:03  
I'm with CNKS, mixing an acid and a bale makes water and some funky byproducts. A paint supply palce (like the Sherwin Williams Store) should have it in various grades (also acetone, toulene, benzene and lots of other good solvents). May even have some cleaning stuff premade. Of course there are chemical specialty supply places but I'm pretty sure you dont want reagent grade.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

06-07-2004 18:16:31




Report to Moderator
 Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to FARMIN RED, 06-07-2004 10:54:03  
The phosphoric acid will neutralize the lye (NaOH) -- don't really know why you are using both. The old "metalprep" stuff (still available) is phosphoric acid. You were supposed to wash it off. It was designed mainly for new or bare sheet metal to etch it before priming. The plain phosphoric acid you are asking about is not a conversion coating, I would not leave it on the parts, in fact, I wouldn't even use it, although I suppose properly diluted it would act as metal prep. I don't know the difference in concentration of the two. I never did particularly like metalprep. If you intend to use it on forged or cast parts, you might not be able to get it off, and yes it may cause problems with your primer. Etch primers contain an acid, they should not be used on cast either, because of possible damage later on. I would wire brush or sand after the NaOH and use an epoxy primer.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Paint remover

06-08-2004 22:23:31




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to CNKS, 06-07-2004 18:16:31  
CNKS, FARMIN RED is using the lye gravy as a paint remover, not as a metel prep. It is as fast as commercial paint remover, but a lot cheaper.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

06-09-2004 11:38:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to Paint remover, 06-08-2004 22:23:31  
I know what he was using it for, I did not mean to imply, nor do I think I implied, that he was using it as metal prep. Reread what I said.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
FARMIN RED

06-08-2004 05:49:53




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to CNKS, 06-07-2004 18:16:31  
OK I see what you are saying in your reply, but now this raises up a couple of more questions. after i strip the paint from either the hood tins or cast parts with lye gravy don't I need to cancel out the the strong base with and acid. Second my local body shop guys tell me to use a urathaine primer he said that the epoxy primer is to hard and won't sand as easy. how will this affect cast parts? I am dumb and have not learned all there is to know about painting yet.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dozerboss

06-08-2004 15:45:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to FARMIN RED, 06-08-2004 05:49:53  
On the choice of primer, as I mentioned earlier epoxy is best for the longest lasting metal protection because it is water proof. Other primers/paints have pores just like your skin and will allow water to get through to metal and cause rust. That is the purpose of waxing a painted finish (car wax) to seal the pores in the paint and prevent rust from starting. The body shop may recommend urethane because it is easier and quicker for them to finish the job, which means they make more money. Now you know the advantages of epoxy you can decide if you want quality or speed. If you do use a urethane paint with a hardener, make sure you have a fresh air breathing system as any hardener that has isocyates(excuse the spelling), refered to as ISO's, is poisonous. Read the paint and body board food for thought about the guy who died after spraying it all day. I have sprayed it about 3 times with just a chemical paint mask and now it burns my eyes and skin if I go near it being sprayed. I no longer spray it without a fresh air system and all parts of my body covered.

If you do decide to make your own remover, please let us know how well it works, and take into consideration breathing and skin protection. A good idea to read labels before using or mixing. As far as canceling the base, I'm not qualified to answer it. I can say that I use vinegar and baking soda to neutralize acid from tinning metal to do lead body work. I believe CSKC had some advice on your "gravy" ingredients neutralizing each other. Perhaps a re-read of his post is in order. I have used the newer chemical paint removers that only need soap and water to neutralize. About 2 gallons or $60 to do a full size car. Maybe the cost and time is worth considering this method.

Once you get to bare metal: I currently use a product called Oxi-solv on bare metal. It leaves a zinc phosphate coating behind, etches clean metal and removes rust all at one time. I have never had a problem with it reacting to paint surfaces. The major problem with it is keeping it wet when applying. If you don't and let it dry, it will leave a heavy film you will need to scotch brite off. Now that I have read about other products such as Ospho and Picklex here, I am anxious to compare them to Oxi-solv. I once tried another rust remover sold in Tractor Supply that did not do squat as far as removing rust. The Oxi-solv product that I use does not need neutralizing and will prevent rerusting for several weeks or months depending on exposure to moisture.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

06-08-2004 09:26:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to FARMIN RED, 06-08-2004 05:49:53  
There is some question about whether acid should be used on cast parts -- I do use the Picklex 20 I mentioned above. Different companies make different formulations and its use on cast "may" damage the paint since cast is pourous and the acid is hard to remove -- I don't know if it is advisable or not, but I have had no problems with the Picklex so far. Again, I don't use it to neutralize the lye, I use it to protect the metal until painting. I believe you will have more problems with the straight phosphoric acid than the NaOH (lye). As to the sheet metal, what I would do (there are other opinions) is just wash it off and sand it. The bare metal has to be sanded or etched before painting anyway. My preference is to sand -- or you can use an etch primer which I have never used. Your body shop guy sounds a little mixed up. You apply epoxy primer on cast and topcoat it, nothing else is needed, cast is rough anyway and primer does not need to be sanded. Use epoxy on the sheet metal, but DON'T try to sand it. Apply a sandable surfacer over the epoxy and sand that. It is next to impossible to properly sand epoxy, he is right about that. The epoxy sticks to the metal and the surfacer sticks to the epoxy. ANY other primer you use on bare metal will not work as well as epoxy.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Keith-OR

06-08-2004 22:31:31




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to CNKS, 06-08-2004 09:26:27  
CNKS go to this website click on "restoration tips" lots of good info here.

http://www.fboerger.com/



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

06-09-2004 17:55:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to Keith-OR, 06-08-2004 22:31:31  
There are many methods of removing both paint and rust. I have heard of the lye gravy method, also seen the site, now that you reminded me of it. Probably nothing wrong with the site, however I like to see bare metal rather than a conversion coating, as I have some unproven fear that the conversion coating might not be as stable as it looks. That is only my opinion, everyone has their own way of doing things. I will probably continue to do things the hard way, which on cast consists of various combinations of oven cleaner (also contains NaOH or lye), chemical stripper (stuff I use costs $12-$13/ gallon and lasts a long time), wire brush, soap and water, PPG DX330/440 etc, followed by a final coat of Picklex 20 to take care of any residual rust I missed plus any flash rust I created. The Picklex 20 will leave a white powdery residue, most of which I will remove with scotchbrite pads immediately prior to painting, again right or wrong, I don't like to paint over residue. --- This post has gone far farther than I imagined, I probably should have never answered.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dozerboss

06-08-2004 23:30:40




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to Keith-OR, 06-08-2004 22:31:31  
Very good info! He took a lot of his time to put this up. If his figures are correct you can save $20 over each gallon of commercial stripper and rust remover. Definately worth $5 to try it. Farmin Red, Keith-OR has provided your stripper answer.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dozerboss

06-07-2004 18:04:31




Report to Moderator
 Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to FARMIN RED, 06-07-2004 10:54:03  
You might try posting your ? on the paint and body board. Epoxy primer is the best choice for primer because its waterproof, I'm assuming your not painting or coating the inside of a fuel tank but exterior metal parts. A zinc phosphate coating left by some rust removers makes paint adhere well on bare metal. I don't know about phosphate alone.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Kendall

06-07-2004 14:35:28




Report to Moderator
 Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to FARMIN RED, 06-07-2004 10:54:03  
A good hardware store will have it. The kits for gas tank cleaning, like Kreem, have acetone as a flush in preperation for the coating. Perhaps a rinse with acetone before priming would be in order.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Ol Chief

06-08-2004 14:12:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: PHOSPHORIC ACID in reply to Kendall, 06-07-2004 14:35:28  
On several previous occasions I have commented on this subject.Last time was about 10 days ago.This subject continues to come up.I have never had experience with any of the other products mentioned.However am very well aquainted with Ospho.This product is compounded w/a buffer of some kind.In my past profession we used Ospho by hundreds of gallons to stop rust and maintain the white superstructure on sea going passenger and freight ships.Under severe conditions it was applied full strength but it works well cut w/ water 50% I have never seen Ospho attack any paint beyond the oxidation stage.Aso have seen good results on surfaces either flushed with water or non flushed though I would probably flush the surface for use with any sort of exotic coating.This stuff leaves a dusty white coating after converting iron oxide to iron phosphate.On my vehicles where poorly chrome plated item are showing rust bloom I use Ospho and it has guarded the surfases for 5 to 8 weeks with one application.For your application I would bow to the recommendations of FIT -- Frank in Talahassee.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy