1969 580 188 diesel

Hello all ;
A week ago a bought a 1969 580 188 CK. It's in fair shape with about 2400 hours. The engine is seized, or stuck...won't turn over with its starter. The starter sounds good, it engages and seems to be working.
I've pulled the fuel injectors and filled the cylinders with a mixture of transmission fluid and acetone today. I also removed the starter and pried on the flywheel with a large screwdriver.
The main gear shifter is in the "S" position. And I've loosened the V belt for the alternator.
My question is two parts...is there a best place to try turning the engine by hand? And could the engine be hung up due to maybe it's transmission?
I've changed all the fluids and filters, all the controls seem to move normally.
My thank you is also two parts. Thanks in advance for an answer and thanks for this forum in general as without it I wouldn't have been able to do all the things I've already done to this backhoe.
 
Do you have any history on the tractor?

If it has been sitting for an extended period of time, it could be "stuck", in which case the penetrant in the cylinders might help.

But if it was running and squealed to a stop... Nothing is going to fix that other than a tear down and a huge dose of money!

When prying on the flywheel, was there any movement at all?

If there is a transmission problem, there will be some movement and some "springy" feel to the flywheel.

If there is a very slight movement, only a few thousandths of an inch, the problem could be a seized piston, or an internal accessory, hydraulic pump, etc. as there will be just a little slack in the bearings or gears.

If there is no movement at all, that is probably seized crank bearings.
 
(quoted from post at 05:57:22 06/02/17) Do you have any history on the tractor?

If it has been sitting for an extended period of time, it could be "stuck", in which case the penetrant in the cylinders might help.

But if it was running and squealed to a stop... Nothing is going to fix that other than a tear down and a huge dose of money!

When prying on the flywheel, was there any movement at all?


If there is a transmission problem, there will be some movement and some "springy" feel to the flywheel.

If there is a very slight movement, only a few thousandths of an inch, the problem could be a seized piston, or an internal accessory, hydraulic pump, etc. as there will be just a little slack in the bearings or gears.

If there is no movement at all, that is probably seized crank bearings.

I do have some history regarding this backhoe. It was purchased new by this same family. They bought it to work around their cottage. It came with the original manuals even. It seems to be well maintained as only one grease fitting is stuck and didn't take grease.
The guy who sold it to me said it ran fine before they moved it from the cottage to their large house in the city. I don't think he was dishonest about that based on the fact that it has brand new rear tires and was parked neatly beside a drive shed at their city house...they probably drove it to the spot where it was parked as opposed to sitting in some spot in a field where it broke down. I have no way to be certain about any of this but it seems logical that it was driven to the spot I purchased it from.
When I pulled the starter and used a flat head screwdriver on the flywheel it didn't seem to move at all but then I was only prying with screwdriver 12 inches long.
It has a torque converter so I don't think the engine can have drive load on it until there is some RPM's going to it. I could be wrong about that as I'm only guessing about that based on how a torque converter works on a mini bike.
Later today I'll try the starter and try again prying at the flywheel now that it's had solvent overnight. I'm worried about breaking a tooth off the flywheel, that's why I was asking if there's some better place to pry on.
I thought to pull the oil pan off to have a look in there but it looks to me as though the oil pan isn't going to come off in any easy way...nothing like a car for sure.
As another observation, none of the bolts, nuts, or controls are rusted tight. And the job of removing the four fuel injectors was easy as pie and they looked to be in perfect condition when removed. (I was very happy about the injectors after reading the forums that said how difficult they can be). I had them all out in about an hour.
Also Steve, am I correct in thinking I'll have to support the whole front end in order to remove the oil pan? It seems to be an integral part of the steering system.
If I can see any movement today at the flywheel I'll drain the engine oil and fill it with ATF and acetone as well.

Thanks a million for your input and I'll keep you posted on how I make out today.
Money is always a factor but I'm pretty excited to have this machine running again. I purchased it for 4700 bucks Canadian. ..that seemed like a pretty good deal.
 
If it was running when parked, sounds like it may have gotten rain water in the cylinders.

Have you loosened the oil drain plug and checked for water? If there is water in the pan, it probably came in through the exhaust. It could also have had a head gasket leaking, that could show as coolant in the bottom of the pan.

Whatever it is, there may still be liquid water or coolant in the cylinders. That needs to come out before any rust penetrant can get down around the rings. Might try a piece of hose small enough to go in through the injector hole, duct taped to the shop vac. Then try to dry it out with compressed air.

Those can usually be broke loose. Flywheel teeth are pretty tough, about the best choice for prying. Might try putting the starter back on, the shock is sometimes better that steady force of a pry bar.

Getting an integral pan off can be difficult. You probably will have to loosen the front end to get it down. But I would wait, get the rust penetrant in there, let it soak a few days, try it again.
 
"get the rust penetrant in there, let it soak a few days, try it again."

I want to clarify, get rust penetrant into the cylinders, not the oil pan.

If the crank is seized, it will need to come apart. Rust penetrant in the crankcase will be of little to no benefit.
 

Don't worry about breaking flywheel ring gear teeth. Get as long a bar as you can fit between the teeth.
 
(quoted from post at 18:45:03 06/02/17)
Don't worry about breaking flywheel ring gear teeth. Get as long a bar as you can fit between the teeth.
Hello again Steve and show crop;
I agree about the flywheel show crop, I had a better look at it with a good light...there's little chance of me breaking That, besides it's a tight squeeze to get much of a bar in there.
And Steve, very good point about if there's water in a cylinder, anything I put in there would just float on top...I hadn't thought of that.
So, this is what I've done these past two days. I'm not very patient so I drained all the oil I had in the pan out, I used my vacuum pump to get everything I had put down the injector ports out, I removed the exaust manifold, I used a air gun with a long 1/4" copper end on it and blew out everywhere I could (all sorts of crap came out). So, when I rebuild old motorcycles I often use a product called "metal rescue", it's great stuff and can turn a rusty old part into a brand new looking part overnight without scrubbing or anything. Metal rescue doesn't work well on oily parts so I put the exaust manifold back on and filled the whole engine with varsol and left it overnight last night.
Today I drained and saved it all, removed the manifold again and again blew the crap out of everything. (Not much crap came out this time). And then I filled the whole engine with that product "metal rescue". And there it sits for tonight. Tomorrow morning I'll drain and save all that stuff. It's reusable so that's good since it's 35 bucks a gallon and it took over four gallons...anyway, then in between arguing with my girlfriend tomorrow I'll fill the whole thing back up with the 50/50 ATF and acetone.
I don't know if this will work but it's worth a try before I order a rebuild kit.
I'll for sure let you know how I make out. Also I will put the starter back in place and let it do the "prying" for me. There's a local guy here who can rewind it for me for a pretty good price, I may have that done just for good measure even though it seems to hit very hard just as it is.
I also have another question that I hope you or someone can answer for me. If I am going to start replacing parts like sleeves and rings and or main lower bearings, is that something I can do while the block is still in place in the tractor?
 
"If I am going to start replacing parts like sleeves and rings and or main lower bearings, is that something I can do while the block is still in place in the tractor?"

Yes, you can replace rings, sleeves, bearings with the block still in place. As long as the crank doesn't need to come out, it can be done.

I think you said that was a low hour engine, so as long as nothing bad happened, like run out of oil, overheated, spun bearing, etc., there is probably nothing wrong in the bottom end.

If you can't get it broke loose, you can probably just take the head off, take the pan off, remove the rod cap on the stuck cylinder(s), remove the piston, rod, and sleeve. If nothing is wrong with the bearings, they can be reused. Diesel parts are expensive, no need to replace unnecessarily, but everything needs to be checked.

Just be careful, doing in-frame work has it's drawbacks. Cleanliness is utmost, difficult to do with coolant and oil dripping from above.

Also diesels are very unforgiving. Everything must be measured, checked against specs. Not like a gas motor that you can get by with a little guess work and hope for the best. A diesel will quickly destroy it's self if out of tolerance.

Before going too deep, a shop manual would be a valuable investment.
 
That's great news that it's doable with the block in place Steve. From the looks of it all, getting it out would be as much labour as replacing stuff.
A shop manual would be good, probably more than just good, probably critical. Is that something I can just order online? Or should I order one right from case?
And about tolerance at the bearings can I just order the same as the ones I remove? Like a #25 in a car say?
I'm assuming the sleeves and rings are a one size thing yes?
It's funny, as I'm working away at it and seeing what great shape everything is in, I have to wonder why ta heck wouldn't the past owner just throw a bucket or something over the exaust stack....crazy!!
 
So, continuing on with my fine old loader backhoe.
I have freed the engine and it will now turn over. The problem was that water had gotten into the number one cylinder through the exaust stack/manifold.
I've removed the cylinder head and cleaned and inspected everything. It all looks good. I'm now ready to put it back together again when the new gaskets and fire rings arrive later this week.
My question this time is about the water pump gasket that will mate the front of the cylinder head to the water pump. It looks like the only way to install that gasket is by removing the water pump so there will be room for the gasket as i'm lowering the cylinder head into place. So can I just loosen all the bolts that hold the water pump on and pry it out and away from the front of the engine just enough to slide the new gasket in? To be honest I haven't really looked closely at what it'll take to do that. It does look like the injector pump is connected to that same part.
Thanks again for any input and so far all your advice has been a huge help.
Keith
 
(quoted from post at 18:20:28 06/20/17) So, continuing on with my fine old loader backhoe.
I have freed the engine and it will now turn over. The problem was that water had gotten into the number one cylinder through the exaust stack/manifold.
I've removed the cylinder head and cleaned and inspected everything. It all looks good. I'm now ready to put it back together again when the new gaskets and fire rings arrive later this week.
My question this time is about the water pump gasket that will mate the front of the cylinder head to the water pump. It looks like the only way to install that gasket is by removing the water pump so there will be room for the gasket as i'm lowering the cylinder head into place. So can I just loosen all the bolts that hold the water pump on and pry it out and away from the front of the engine just enough to slide the new gasket in? To be honest I haven't really looked closely at what it'll take to do that. It does look like the injector pump is connected to that same part.
Thanks again for any input and so far all your advice has been a huge help.
Keith

Keith, consider that water pump to be a wear item. If it has original paint on it, even though it is low houred, you will be back in there after it within 50 hours. If it is rusty instead of original paint then it is a replacement. But I would still pull it right off and put a new gasket in. The gasket on every water pump that I have ever replaced has been punky
 
So I have my tractor all turning over great. Like a sewing machine even. Thankfully I didn't have to do anything to the bottom end.
Is there a trick to getting the new water pump gasket in there at the same time as the head gasket?
 
(quoted from post at 04:42:15 06/24/17) So I have my tractor all turning over great. Like a sewing machine even. Thankfully I didn't have to do anything to the bottom end.
Is there a trick to getting the new water pump gasket in there at the same time as the head gasket?

Sorry I am not familiar with that head-water pump arrangement and can't picture it.
 
I don't have a picture of it but the front of the cylinder head is where the water pump pushes water into the cylinder head/block. So there's a smallish gasket there in a vertical position. And the head gasket is horizontal. Everything fits so tight that when I try the lower the cylinder head into place it moves the water pump gasket away. If I kept lowering the head it will destroy the water pump gasket. It seems logical to loosen the water pump and pry it a bit away from the front of the engine. But it's not just the water pump, it's the injector pump, power steering res, it's looking like a huge job.
And now that I'm looking closely at the front of the engine it looks like it would be an all day job to change the fan belt. But that's a whole different issue.
 
(quoted from post at 06:10:33 06/24/17) I don't have a picture of it but the front of the cylinder head is where the water pump pushes water into the cylinder head/block. So there's a smallish gasket there in a vertical position. And the head gasket is horizontal. Everything fits so tight that when I try the lower the cylinder head into place it moves the water pump gasket away. If I kept lowering the head it will destroy the water pump gasket. It seems logical to loosen the water pump and pry it a bit away from the front of the engine. But it's not just the water pump, it's the injector pump, power steering res, it's looking like a huge job.
And now that I'm looking closely at the front of the engine it looks like it would be an all day job to change the fan belt. But that's a whole different issue.

The head gasket does not extend over the pump does it?
 
Hello all. So I have my tractor all back together again except for the intake and exaust manifolds and the fuel injectors.
So my question is; should I be seeing fuel coming out of the fuel lines that will connect to the injectors when the engine is turning over?
The front of my engine is all back together and it's turning over perfectly. The lifters are working well. Oil is being pumped to the top of the cylinder head.
It just seems that at this point I should see fuel spraying out of the hard lines that will eventually be connected to the injectors. I'm not seeing any fuel at that point.
All the fuel filters are new, and I've bled them. I also removed a screw from the body of the injector pump because it looked like it would be a bleeder point, there was nice clean fuel there as well.
Does anyone know if fuel should come out of these hard lines that lead to the injectors even if I haven't installed the injectors yet?

Thanks in advance
Keith.
 

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