Not even a pop

Campoman

New User
I'm brand new to this forum so forgive me if I'm plowing old ground, but the Ford Powermaster 801 I just acquired has me scratching my head.

It was running fine when it went into storage a couple years ago, but just barely after coming out. Flushed out the tank and rebuilt the carb, but now I get not even a pop. [i:c6040266d4]It starts right up on starting fluid[/i:c6040266d4], and there's plenty of gas in the float chamber.

I've disassembled the carb and cleaned it with carb cleaner and compressed air (several times), and when I blow on the gas inlet and raise the float, it shuts off nicely, so that seems to be working.

With good ignition and gas in the bowl, I should at least get an engine that's trying to start, but nothing until I give it a blast of starting fluid. It runs until that is gone, then quits.

One other thing: I made the rookie mistake of stripping the sediment bowl gas fitting, so now have an inline filter, but gas runs through that just fine on gravity and as I say, gas is definitely getting to the carb.

Help!!

Thanks,
Gary
 
Cleaning a carb with just spray and air is not good enough. You need to soak the carb in a good carb cleaner and then spray it out and also poke out all the passage ways wit ha piece of wire or other such thing. Me I use a torch tip cleaner tool to poke it out. That said try holding your hand over the air intake and crank it over. Do you feel a good suction and also do you get gas on your hand?? If you do not get both good chance you have sticking rings and low compression due to storage. You might try putting say a 1/4 cup of ATF in each cylinder and let it sit 24 hours then spin it over with the plugs out to clear the ATF out and try to fire it up
 
I definitely get good suction when I put my hand over the intake, although didn't see any gas on my hand. Perhaps I didn't leave it there long enough.

That said, when I took the air cleaner hose off this morning, gas poured out of the carb throat. Maybe a quarter of a cup. That's what caused me to double-check the float valve. I had left the gas on at the tank valve for a couple days, and prior to giving up last time I had tried starting several times, but it doesn't seem right that there would be that much gas sitting in the throat.

A clue perhaps?
 
That much gas say it is flooded and the plugs stand a good chance they are gas fouled and need to be pulled out and cleaned and heated to burn off the gas. Maybe even a new set of plugs. Spark needs to be a good blue white in color and jump a 1/4 inch gap or more for it to run on gas
 
Did you forget the venturi? If you have gas in the breather tube with dry plugs and it will run on starter fluid you are not getting gas up thru the discharge tube in the throat. It can be plugged from the main jet any where from there thru the discharge tube. If you had the jet out as well as the discharge and it is open then you would have had to forget to replace the venturi. The venturi is what causes the vacuum to be increased at the end of the discharge tube.
 
If it will run on starting fluid, then quit as
soon as it's gone, it's definitely not getting
fuel, as in no fuel if it won't even try to idle.

Since you're sure it has fuel in the bowl, that
narrows it down to nothing is getting through the
main jet. ALL fuel, idle, mid range, and power,
goes through the main jet. Revisit that circuit.
The main jet will connect with the ventura tube,
and branch off to the idle/midrange circuit.

Common main circuit problems are 1) Main
adjustment needle set too far in. 2) Tip of main
adjustment needle broken off in the main jet. 3)
Bowl gasket out of place, wrong gasket, torn,
causing loss of idle/midrange circuit, drawing
air instead of fuel at transition from bowl to
upper housing. 4) Low float level. 5) Trash, water, wrong fuel (diesel) in carb.
 
I have a Marvel Shebler TSX Type C - the one with the load valve in the bottom. The main nozzle unscrews and removes from the bottom. I took it out this morning and shot carb cleaner in all the holes and blew it out with air. Cleaner came out all the small holes in the sides of the tube as well as out both ends. I'm convinced it's clean. I put it back together and got the same result.

The venturi is definitely in place and right-side up. I don't think the carb will go back together if it's not seated correctly.

I was really convinced last night that the main nozzle was my problem, because it was the only part I hadn't removed, but I removed, cleaned, and inspected it this morning, and reinstalled it, closing the valve and then backing it out one full turn as it says in the [color=blue:c6fca96d8d]manual[/color:c6fca96d8d].

The main gasket is exactly identical to the original, and I've been very careful to make sure it's installed correctly and doesn't cover any holes.

"Old" tractor guru from Lake of the Ozarks has me thinking that maybe I do have an ignition problem. Maybe I have sufficient spark to light off starter fluid, but not strong enough for gas. I'll try to look into that this weekend.


Thanks,
Gary
 
Looking on page 6 of the manual, is the "nozzle
air vent - 21" in place? If it were missing, that
would lean the mixture, possibly stop all fuel
draw. But I think it should still choke and try
to start.

I saw where the initial main jet adjustment
called for 1 turn off seat. I guess they are
right, but that sounds really lean, but again it
should choke and try to start...

I guess the weak spark could run start fluid and
not gas, but I've never encountered that. A
simple test would be to use a squirt can of gas
into the carb, see if it will fire on gas.

Keep us posted...
 
Hey, that's an excellent idea! A sure-fire (okay..pun) test to of the weak spark theory.

As for the air vent, I'll check it out when I take the thing apart... again...

Thanks!
 
Learned years ago that just because carb cleaner spray goes threw the holes gas that is not under pressure may not do the same thing. That is why I said to use a small wire etc to poke out all the holes. I do carbs all the time and will NEVER do one with out poking out the passage ways
 
I dunno guys.. I'm about to give up. I took it apart again, poked, checked, and blew out the passageways and put it back together.

I tried gasoline in a spray bottle but only got a backfire. I'm sure the atomization wasn't correct.

Took out a couple plugs, and aside from being wet, they looked fine. I held one against the block and it was definitely sparking across the gap, with what looked to me like a healthy arc.

It is making smoke out the stack, but not popping unless I use starting fluid. Does blue-white smoke with no popping tell you anything?

I did power wash the tractor before doing all this, but surely that would have affected ignition more than anything.

Oh, and this time, I backed out the main and idle jets two turns instead of one, but no difference in the outcome.
 
Wet plugs mean gas fouled plugs and that is your problem it is flooding. Float may not be set right or the float has a hole in it so it is sinking
 
Oh... my... god.....

Well, we figured it out. Actually my son-in-law did. He has a Bobcat, and in a pinch the other day he had filled the gas can with... you guessed it... diesel.

Let the flogging begin.

Didn't I notice how oily my hands were? Didn't I notice that oily sheen on the 'gas' in the float bowl? Nope. I was so focused on a dirty carb that diesel was the last thing from my mind. I wasn't even thinking that could be a possibility.

Hence the wet plugs, and the blue smoke, and not running when I sprayed 'gas' from a spray bottle.

We drained the tank, cleaned the carb again, removed the fuel filter, and she runs like a dream....

Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement...

Thanks for all the replies.

Gary
 
One question for you. Didn't you notice that diesel smell?? That would have been the first thing I would have noticed but then I sneeze when I smell deisel
 
(quoted from post at 13:19:57 03/07/15) One question for you. Didn't you notice that diesel smell?? That would have been the first thing I would have noticed but then I sneeze when I smell deisel
to be honest with you, I am more of a wood guy than a vehicle guy, and it's been awhile since I've even played in gasoline. I have never worked on anything diesel and in fact have probably never even seen, felt, or smelled diesel fuel.
I know I should have noticed that it wasn't gasoline, but what can I say.
at least the mystery is solved, and the tractor runs great.
 
One good thing is the diesel may have helped the engine some but by no means did it hurt it any. The diesel fuel will have lubed the top end of the engine
 
(quoted from post at 16:28:01 03/07/15) One good thing is the diesel may have helped the engine some but by no means did it hurt it any. The diesel fuel will have lubed the top end of the engine

You're very kind... :wink:
 
Matter of fact one of the old school things was to add a gal. of diesel to a tank of gas every 10 or so tank fulls to lube the valves etc.
 
Well thanks. Say, since you are from Lake of the Ozarks, I wanted to mention that I worked at the College of the Ozarks back in the mid seventies for a couple years, and my youngest daughter was born in Branson. Haven't been back since. I'm sure I would not recognize Branson today. When we were there, there were 3 music shows: the Baldknobbers, the Plummer family, and Mountain Music Jubilee. That's it.
 
Last I knew there is more like 10 if not most music shows down there. I have not been down to Branson but one time and that was when I found out places like Silver Dollar city was anti gun so have not been back since. I am up here at the Lake of the Ozarks about 100 miles north east of Branson
 
Campoman, welcome to the forums, and good for you for posting back to tell what the problem turned out to be. Now we have a new question to ask people who come where with starting problems, LOL. Hang around and watch the question come up!
 
Thanks! I just benefited from another post; a 2003 post from Jim Shelton about how to replace the O-ring in the Ford fuel tank outlet valve. So thanks for that, Jim, if you're out there...

My next problem is that the tractor has an "old style" power steering pump that was leaking fluid out of...
wm_S.61085.jpg

...what I assume is a pressure relief valve or vent - that tall hex fitting coming out of the top of the tank. My son-in-law, bless him, just plugged up the hole. I'm pretty sure that's not a good idea. Don't know if it was the result of the plugging or if we've just lost a lot of fluid, but now we have no power steering. I haven't had a chance to look into that, except to email Yesterday's Tractors Customer Support to ask if they have an exploded view drawing of the pump.
 
Check your fluid level first then post back. I do not know that pump but good chance if it has a filter inside of it that the filter need to be cleaned which can cause that type of problem. And yes likely to be a vent
 
(quoted from post at 21:28:37 03/06/15)poke out all the passage ways wit ha piece of wire or other such thing.

Using wire is a poor choice, you can scratch the passages through the carb and make it a then none serviceable sh$$-can item.
Just my two cents.
Mike
 
Been doing it for 30 plus years and have yet to do any harm to any of them and have done hundred of them
 
(quoted from post at 05:16:16 03/12/15) Been doing it for 30 plus years and have yet to do any harm to any of them and have done hundred of them
Ever tried it on a aluminum carburetor? Trust me it's poor practice(Not that I have a degree or ASE certification or anything :roll: ) , good quality small rubber tipped airgun and 110psi shop pressure will no doubt get anything out of that carb you don't want. Just make sure air is coming out the other end and your good. If air don't get it clean it using a chem-dip carb solvent solution. Let soak for according to directions. Repeat airgun technique.
Mike
 
Stole this from another forum I belong to, not saying your wrong OLD, I have been there and done it, it works but just to save you future headache.
Quote from: 78SS on February 17, 2009, 06:14:14 PM
Quote from: 754 on February 17, 2009, 05:42:59 PM
Using the wound ones could damage your jets. anything harder than brass can
In fact most recommend very soft wire for cleaning carbs, ie copper or aluminum, maybe even monofilament, just for those reasons.
I would imagine that using a sawing action would do damage to your jets. Even mono-filament can cut metal. I've seen it. My rule is stop way before I see particles of metal flying off. It's not too hard to imagine someone who will damage jets in this way but they shouldn't be working on motorcycles and they should learn from their mistakes. Darwin awards don't just apply to unintentional suicide.
My Dad used welding torch tip CLEANERS on his lawn tractor engine's carb, and could never figure out why the plug kept fouling out after that. Turned out he actually enlarged the orifice about a whole size! :eek: Try the chemical CLEANER and compressed air route first before using the wires. You CAN actually use wires, I have, but you have to be really REALLY careful not to damage the jets or seating surfaces.
 

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