Electrical Starting Issues

aschwerin

New User
My first post. I"m at my wit"s end, and they didn"t go very far anyhow.

So I"m trying to get a 1951 Ford 8N running again after 10 or so years. Converted to 12V, with a front mount distributor and single wire alternator. Initially it "started" fine but didn"t run. Now about when I get it purring nice, starting system stops working.

Started with a chattering of the solenoid. Charged battery. My brother-in-law took out the starter and pulled it apart so I took it in and had it rebuilt.

Found that I could start it if I jumped with a running car, but would die if I took off the jumper cables. Fairly new battery tested good however.

So it seems something was grounding out. The starter post read as ground so called the rebuild shop and they said its supposed to because of the brushes.

So last night I replaced the 12V four post solenoid with the 311006. Everything was hot! Hooked the ground back up to the thumb switch on tranny (to S, like some posts said). Still, there is 0 resistance across the two large terminals with nothing on the solenoid, or with wires hooked up. My old solenoid has infinite resistance across the two large terminals.

I think these are two different issues, but I"m not making progress in understanding either of them!

Thanks for any explanations, I"m not quite getting how all this is supposed to work on my tractor, even reading through the archives.
 
You didn't say what you did with the "I" terminal? Connect it to the large terminal with battery cable on it. Work now?
 
no, didn't work.

The I terminal is connected to the coil (via
resistor block), and to the ignition key, which is
powered when key is in on position, by way of a
wire connected from the solenoid's battery
terminal to the ammeter to the ignition key
assembly.

Still grounding out on battery side whether key is
on or off. So I disconnect battery cable from
battery, and supply power from battery to ammeter
wire (roundabout through key to terminal I). And
now when key is on and I pressed thumb button,
there was a distinct solenoid click. After about
5 times of doing this, it no longer clicks.

So while it was still clicking I was able to
determine that battery terminal of the solenoid,
with nothing wired to it, was grounded with and
without power to I terminal, and before, during,
and after solenoid engagement. So it seems to me
both terminals of solenoid are always in circuit
with each other. That doesn't make any sense to
me, unless I happened to buy the 1 in 1000 bad
solenoid.

I assume both sides of the solenoid are equal - I
see some are putting battery on left terminal, and
some on right terminal of solenoid.

I also checked resistor ballast, ammeter, and
ignition key assembly and none of those
connections seem to be grounded out.

BTW, I'm checking ground by seeing 0 resistance between one probe and the battery ground post. Also, when I press thumb switch it does ground out on the S terminal. That seems right with what I've been reading.

Thanks again.

Andrew
 
The solenoid number that you gave is on the left in drawing & it requires battery power (through key switch is fine, but through resistor is not) on one small terminal & ground (through neutral safety start button) on the other small terminal.
 
Sorry a 1951 and front mount can not be the last front mount was made round May of 1950 Just for your info
 
2 wires coming off I terminal, one goes through
resistor to coil. Other wire (thicker gauge) goes to
ammeter to ignition key to battery terminal.

Maybe tomorrow I'll try switching the S and I
terminal wires? And I could try bypassing the
ammeter in case that is acting as a resistor.
 
(quoted from post at 23:24:13 10/10/13) 2 wires coming off I terminal, one goes through
resistor to coil. Other wire (thicker gauge) goes to
ammeter to ignition key to battery terminal.

Maybe tomorrow I'll try switching the S and I
terminal wires? And I could try bypassing the
ammeter in case that is acting as a resistor.
f you really have a 311006 solenoid, then swapping S & I will not matter.
 
so I simplified the whole thing. hot battery on
one side, starter on other. thumb switch ground to
one small terminal, and hot battery to other small
terminal.

solenoid still shows a complete circuit to all
terminals (ground). nothing happens when pressing
thumb switch.

took off cable to starter. all terminals now show
13 volts. when I press thumb switch all terminals
fall to 0 volts.

seeems to me, my starter HAS to be bad. Though it
was rebuilt by the owner of a reputable starter
shop, it HAS to be grounding out my starting
circuit. And it must have ruined a second
solenoid.

anybody have any other ideas before I go tell this
guy who knows a lot more about starters than I do
that he screwed up?
 
(quoted from post at 12:17:06 10/12/13) so I simplified the whole thing. hot battery on
one side, starter on other. thumb switch ground to
one small terminal, and hot battery to other small
terminal.

solenoid still shows a complete circuit to all
terminals (ground). nothing happens when pressing
thumb switch.

took off cable to starter. all terminals now show
13 volts. when I press thumb switch all terminals
fall to 0 volts.

seeems to me, my starter HAS to be bad. Though it
was rebuilt by the owner of a reputable starter
shop, it HAS to be grounding out my starting
circuit. And it must have ruined a second
solenoid.

anybody have any other ideas before I go tell this
guy who knows a lot more about starters than I do
that he screwed up?
se jumper cables to power starter directly & independently of tractor battery cables, solenoid, and even battery if you like. Or a lesser step would be to use a couple of wrenches to short the two big terminals of solenoid together to power starter, but here, you still use tractor battery, cables, potential bad connections, etc. BE SURE TRANSMISSION IS IN NEUTRAL BEFORE THESE ATTEMPTS.
 
ok. I jumped from my car and starter worked.

So some of my issues were that I hadn't tightened
down the positive battery cable.

And when I did, other side of solenoid was always
hot. So its a good thing it was in neutral and
didn't start up because against all good judgement
I ignored sparks and once it was tightened on
starter there was no stopping anything.

So the solenoid isn't working properly. The box
says 311006, made in Mexico, from CNH. The
solenoid has 5442 12V 1AB stamped on the mounting
bracket.

Maybe I will return it to New Holland and get
NAPA's equivalent. From reading other posts, this
is the solenoid I should stick with?

Thinking about it, I don't understand what the
point of the key is if you are also using the
thumb switch by gearshift. Just seems like an
extra step.
 
(quoted from post at 19:10:11 10/12/13) ok. I jumped from my car and starter worked.

So some of my issues were that I hadn't tightened
down the positive battery cable.

And when I did, other side of solenoid was always
hot. So its a good thing it was in neutral and
didn't start up because against all good judgement
I ignored sparks and once it was tightened on
starter there was no stopping anything.

So the solenoid isn't working properly. The box
says 311006, made in Mexico, from CNH. The
solenoid has 5442 12V 1AB stamped on the mounting
bracket.

Maybe I will return it to New Holland and get
NAPA's equivalent. From reading other posts, this
is the solenoid I should stick with?

Thinking about it, I don't understand what the
point of the key is if you are also using the
thumb switch by gearshift. Just seems like an
extra step.
hat is not the type of solenoid that 8N left the factory with. It was a 3 terminal, not 4 and did not require the key to be on i order to operate the starter. To be like original, you need ST-540, SS-559, or 8N11450
 
Just to update:

I bought a solenoid from NAPA, they wouldn't sell
me the ST542 but they sold me the ST81SB. I did
get the wiring to work right with the key, but no
grounded thumb switch to start it. I understand
that isn't so safe, but it starts and runs and
turns off easily and I am content for now.

Bought the other solenoid back to New Holland and
their shop agreed it was bad. But still, there
were many hours spent trying to figure out what
was wrong.

Well now, I'll hook up the brush hog and see if
this tractor can't do something useful!
 
(quoted from post at 23:04:54 10/22/13) Just to update:

I bought a solenoid from NAPA, they wouldn't sell
me the ST542 but they sold me the ST81SB. I did
get the wiring to work right with the key, but no
grounded thumb switch to start it. I understand
that isn't so safe, but it starts and runs and
turns off easily and I am content for now.

Bought the other solenoid back to New Holland and
their shop agreed it was bad. But still, there
were many hours spent trying to figure out what
was wrong.

Well now, I'll hook up the brush hog and see if
this tractor can't do something useful!
ell, I'm happy for you that you got it to start.
"...they wouldn't sell
me the ST542"..........what the he11???!! They wouldn't sell it to you? You are the customer! Sell you what you want!! I would be all over their 1-800-customer service number!!!! 800-732-4832 &/or 1-877-805-6272 . It is really a pitiful state of affairs these days that the yokels behind the parts counter don't know jack schitt & if it can't be looked up on the computer by make, model, year, they simply throw up their hands. Even the NAPA technical support hot line people can't tell me the connections/schematic of any solenoid that they sell!!! What a crock!!
I must go in, ask the jokers to bring me a half dozen or so solenoids of numbers that I think might get me what I want & then sit there with my Ohmmeter & figure out what they are! They used to have a catalog with diagram for each solenoid, but on my last visit, no one remembered it??? He11 in a hand basket!
 
he said this one was what I wanted so I checked it
with the ohmmeter, but only to make sure the main
terminals were open, and they were, which was a
huge improvement, so I bought it.

so I went up to get the brushhog a little bit ago,
and the tractor only made it halfway up the hill.
I think I'm either getting some sediment clogging
in the fuel line, and/or something is up with the
alternator. I checked the voltage and my battery
charge had dropped from 14.x to 12.6 volts after
running for 3 or 4 minutes. With engine running
digital voltmeter was all over the place, makes me
think something isn't right with alternator...but
other things to work on the rest of today...
 
(quoted from post at 15:59:35 10/23/13) he said this one was what I wanted so I checked it
with the ohmmeter, but only to make sure the main
terminals were open, and they were, which was a
huge improvement, so I bought it.

so I went up to get the brushhog a little bit ago,
and the tractor only made it halfway up the hill.
I think I'm either getting some sediment clogging
in the fuel line, and/or something is up with the
alternator. I checked the voltage and my battery
charge had dropped from 14.x to 12.6 volts after
running for 3 or 4 minutes. With engine running
digital voltmeter was all over the place, makes me
think something isn't right with alternator...but
other things to work on the rest of today...
Normal for digital meters to go nuts in electrically noisy environment, i.e., running tractor. Need analog meter. If you have a good battery & have it fully charged, it will run a tractor's ignition all day & more, including a decent number of starter operations, even if you have no alternator or generator connected.
 
changed fuel filter and the 90 degree elbow below the tank was filled with crud, even though we had thoroughly cleaned the tank...
 

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