VH4D NIGHTMARE

Ok so my trip got postponed by a day so tomorrow Saturday I am going to try a few different things and if I don't get it I am waving the white flag and seeking a shop that can bring her to the finish line. Below is what im going to try if anyone wants to add to the list please do.

1. test fuel pump by disconnecting from carb and cranking the engine.

2. If the pump is not working I will most likely call it quits, what's the use right?
3. If I get the fuel figured out, I was thinking of finding Total TDC which is 5:00 , leave mag x alone because the rotor is pointing at number one, try that.
4. Leave it at 12;00 which again is not TDC but almost, leave mag set as is, if gas is going to carb try that.

5. any other suggestions? I wont mess around with any gears that's way out of my comfort zone, If anyone out there thinks I should wave the flag now and not waste the time please say so . and if anyone knows a shop near the Md area that would take this on let me know. Thanks Scott
 
Call Rodney in Jarrettsville at 410-692-2857 to get his opinion. I restored Standardtwin garden tractors back in 1970's and he did my machine work. Hal
 
Did you ever call the shop that rebuilt your engine? Are you related to the Rollins in Elkton? They're all lawyers and judges. Hal
PS: I would call that shop that rebuilt the engine and tell them what you found. You can take them to court.
 
If you look close in this picture it shows the No1 crank pin in the up position when the piston is at TDC on the compression stroke and the keyway at 12 o'clock like it should be. Hal
a129263.jpg
 
Well story is the shop that did the work is a friend of a relative that sold me on his knowledge and with funds for this project being limited I wanted a deal so we kinda did this work on the side, I know what the shop did I have photos updating me on the progress, I just think when it came down to getting the thing started the timing and a few other things were just over the guy's head. He is the owner, mechanic, book keeper and so on. So im kinda stuck
 
As far as I know the following procedure happened,
1. engine was sitting for 9 years in the weather with no protection.
2. tore engine down completely.
3. new pistons n rings
4. gasket kit.
5. crank was inspected and found to be ok.
6. bearings new.
7. new fuel pump.
8. rebuilt carb
9. rebuilt mag.
10. new plug wires and plugs.

I'm sure i'm missing some things but pretty much everything was rebuilt or replaced, like I said the motor turns over , good compression, I don't know but Saturday is my last shot then I will leave it to the pro's. I just hope if it goes that way I can find someone to take this on, a lot of people wont take on someone elses screw up.
 
I've never had a problem, but I work on mostly
2 cylinder models. El Toro's print is correct, unless rebuilder did not line up timing marks on Crankshaft gear, idler gear, or magneto drive gear
correctly.
 
Put an electric pump and regulator on the fuel system. I had a 560 Farmall diesel tractor that somebody had evidentally overhauled before I got it. The timing marks were off when they put it back together. It did run fine but the injection pump marks didn't line up. Probably what happened in your case. A few years ago I overhauled an ATV engine for a guy and got the timing chain one link off. Wouldn't run right. You may have to tear it apart and check the marks.
 
Scott:
You have received some very good help here but I will throw in my 2 cents. Many years ago I rebuilt a VP4 Wisconsin. When I got it started it only ran on two cylinders. I pulled most of the hair from my head trying to figure out why it ran on only two cylinders. I had spark and fuel to all cylinders.
Problem was camshaft lobes were worn out on two cylinders. I discovered that by removing the heads and watching the valves open and close in relation to the the piston.
Without removing the front cover of the engine to check if the cam is timed to the crank correctly, remove one of the heads and watch the piston and valves. The engine fires and the piston goes down, as the piston starts back up on the exhaust stroke the exhaust valve starts to open to let the exhaust out of the cylinder. The exhaust valve will open entirely and close entirely on the upstroke of the piston. On the following down stroke of the piston the intake valve will start to open, and open entirely and close entirely by the time the piston starts back up on the compression stroke. Both valves are closed on this stroke. I may have this paragraph a little messed up but not by much. If someone wants to make a few corrections feel free.
If your fuel pump is not working, (It is a new pump so it should work)run a fuel line from a tank that is above the carburetor. Make sure no lines are plugged.
When the magneto is properly timed to the engine the impulse coupling will snap when the DC and X marked vane of the flywheel lines up with the marks on the flywheel shroud which indicate the centerline of the cylinders.
As for the cam and crank being timed properly, I can't believe anyone that would take this rebuild job would not know how to line up the cam and crank marks.

Good luck
 
You can forget about the governor, oil pump and idler gears. I think the cam and crankshaft gear were not timed correctly. Hal
 
Scott
Here is what you can do. Pull all the plugs out of the engine, put one in the # 1 plug wire and lay it where it will be grounded good on the head of the engine and is easy to see. Roll the engine over clock wise by hand and watch for the plug to fire. If you see a good spark jumping on the plug the mag is working. Once you have spark, very slowly roll engine over. The slower the better, when the mag trips and fires the plug stop and note the location of the X, it should be very close to the 12:00 o'clock position. You probably will never be exactly on the 12, I would guess any where with in 1/4 inch or so + or - of the mark will be close enough for the engine to start. If it is way off by say 1" or more you need to reset the mag. Do it several time to get a good average of where it happens, if nothing else it should be fairly close to the same spot every time. Gas, compression and spark at the right time is all it takes.
Jo
 
Scott
I just read your discussion with Jon and teddy about the X at 5:00 when the mag fires. If the #1 plug wire is not producing a spark at 12 as it should, try this.. move the plug to # 2, see where it is .. then 3 or 4 to see if any one brings the X at 12. Now for a little red neck re design..if you find one that fires at 12.. call that location # 1 and continue the firing order from their. My guess at this point is that # 2 will bring it up to 12.
Jo
 
Jo Bird:
I think you better think again where the impulse coupling should snap at if timed correctly. I checked the Manual Tramway posted and three of mine and they all say the same thing. The impulse coupling will snap when the DC and X marked flywheel vane lines up with the mark on the flywheel shroud that indicates the centerline of number one and number three cylinders, which is roughly 10 o'clock.

I have never had a problem timing a Wisconsin magneto this way before.
 
Scott:

One more thought, you have spent a lot of time getting the timing right. Make sure the wires are in the right holes in the magneto going to the right spark plugs. If that engine sat out side for a long time check the carburetor for cleanness and make sure the needle valve and seat are working, and make sure you are getting gas to the carburetor.

From the picture you posted above the engine is a VH4 not a VF4. It just has a magneto on it instead of a Distributor.
 
JOB
Thanks for catching that, upon further reflection, I agree with you. The X should be near the #1 piston center-line as you describe. If it is not near the center-line one of the other plug wires may bring it back to the area. Then I thought that the wire that brings the X closest to the center line could be used to fire the # 1 cylinder and firing order established from that. This would save pulling the mag to reset it. I realize this would not agree with the book but it should work, hence my red neck comment. Do you agree with my reassessment ? Again good catch.
Jo
 
Jo Bird, I am not sure I fully understand your question. Time it by the manual and you have no problems. Scott mentions the impulse coupling snapping at the 5:00 o'clock position. That sounds like he may be 180 degrees off. May be he could swap plug wires to correct That. But it is a lot easier to time it by the manual.
 
Scott, I forgot the post where you stated what all had been done to your engine where you mentioned the carburetor rebuild.

If that engine is timed by the manual you have or the one Tramway guy posted, and you have gas in the carburetor with an unrestricted fuel line with gas flow, I see no reason for that engine to not start. Unless the crank and cam are not in time. The guy that did the rebuild should have known to time the cam to the crank. It sounds like you have compression so I would say the cam and crank are in time or at least close enough to start.

Back in my much younger days I had a souped up Cushman scooter that I always timed three teeth advanced at the cam and crank every time I rebuilt the engine. The engine did not have a stock cam in it so maybe that made a difference.

Make sure it is timed by the manual, and you have spark at the plugs and it should run. Once you get it to run it would not hurt to check the advance timing with a timing light as described in the manual. With a fresh rebuild on the magneto the advance timing should be good, check it anyway. If the timing does not advance you could destroy your engine.

Advance timing is 27 degrees before the center-line of number one and three cylinders, set at 1800 rpm or above. The flywheel shroud has a mark on it to indicate the 27 degree line. Paint the DC vane and mark on the shroud white for doing this. This is all described in the manual.

Good luck
 

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