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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Machine shop (pics)

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mightymolinekid

01-14-2013 12:37:29




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I've mentioned it before but I thought I'd show what I have so I don't sound like I'm complaining too much lol. Can anyone see what's wrong with these pictures? The story is the same machine shop built this engine from start to finish. They had all of the parts, and I left it up to them to build it. When I dropped it off it was all pieces and when I picked it up, the only things not on was oil pan and rocker assemblies, which they did have the whole time. (I said I'd finish the assembly) The first tear down was due to a spun rear main and seized pistons, I'm tearing it down again for obvious reasons. We had no valve reliefs the first time, and saw contact so when they rebuilt it they cut the reliefs in. And they used the wrong front cam bushing so the first time I didn't have any oil to the front valves and now I realize my cam has so much clearance I lose oil pressure. 3rd times the charm he tells me......

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MLPANKEY

01-15-2013 17:58:30




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 12:37:29  
[quote="mightymolinekid"](quoted from post at 15:27:57 01/15/13) Southeast Wisconsin to be specific. Its a Moline diesel, they are designed for the pistons to come to zero deck. I have a question. I have valve contact with .012" lash now, how would putty on top of the piston tell me how deep the relief needs to be? Wouldn't it just mash it out when the valve hits? When I say contact, I mean it gets tight against the top of the piston when I roll it over by hand, I took the valve spring off and checked. I don't know much about the finer points of engine building, I had left that up to the shop, trusting their knowledge. Now I'm going to learn all I can, which I wish I'd done in the first place. Where is your shop located? How exactly do I figure out what I need for clearance? Thanks for the input and any help.[/quote. When it was first put together the squiahed puddy would have been the only indicator of piston to valve touching and or how much it wasnt touching

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MLPANKEY

01-15-2013 17:57:49




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 12:37:29  
[quote="mightymolinekid"](quoted from post at 15:27:57 01/15/13) Southeast Wisconsin to be specific. Its a Moline diesel, they are designed for the pistons to come to zero deck. I have a question. I have valve contact with .012" lash now, how would putty on top of the piston tell me how deep the relief needs to be? Wouldn't it just mash it out when the valve hits? When I say contact, I mean it gets tight against the top of the piston when I roll it over by hand, I took the valve spring off and checked. I don't know much about the finer points of engine building, I had left that up to the shop, trusting their knowledge. Now I'm going to learn all I can, which I wish I'd done in the first place. Where is your shop located? How exactly do I figure out what I need for clearance? Thanks for the input and any help.[/quote. When it was first put together the squiahed puddy would have been the only indicator of piston to valve touching and or how much it wasnt touching

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MLPANKEY

01-15-2013 17:57:49




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 12:37:29  
[quote="mightymolinekid"](quoted from post at 15:27:57 01/15/13) Southeast Wisconsin to be specific. Its a Moline diesel, they are designed for the pistons to come to zero deck. I have a question. I have valve contact with .012" lash now, how would putty on top of the piston tell me how deep the relief needs to be? Wouldn't it just mash it out when the valve hits? When I say contact, I mean it gets tight against the top of the piston when I roll it over by hand, I took the valve spring off and checked. I don't know much about the finer points of engine building, I had left that up to the shop, trusting their knowledge. Now I'm going to learn all I can, which I wish I'd done in the first place. Where is your shop located? How exactly do I figure out what I need for clearance? Thanks for the input and any help.[/quote. When it was first put together the squiahed puddy would have been the only indicator of piston to valve touching and or how much it wasnt touching

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mightymolinekid

01-15-2013 14:27:57




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 12:37:29  
Southeast Wisconsin to be specific. Its a Moline diesel, they are designed for the pistons to come to zero deck. I have a question. I have valve contact with .012" lash now, how would putty on top of the piston tell me how deep the relief needs to be? Wouldn't it just mash it out when the valve hits? When I say contact, I mean it gets tight against the top of the piston when I roll it over by hand, I took the valve spring off and checked. I don't know much about the finer points of engine building, I had left that up to the shop, trusting their knowledge. Now I'm going to learn all I can, which I wish I'd done in the first place. Where is your shop located? How exactly do I figure out what I need for clearance? Thanks for the input and any help.

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mightymolinekid

01-15-2013 04:46:53




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 12:37:29  
I should clarify a little, there are 2 events pictured here. The scored piston and destroyed bearing is from the 1st build. No ether was used for starting, and by the time we got the fuel system primed, the guage was showing 30 psi at cranking. The failure happened on the dyno, after break in, so no I didn't get a chance to cold pull it or lug it. The shop admitted it looked to them like the bore clearance was wrong. The top pictures are after the 2nd build. Cylinder walls look OK, but I have a question for Vic (you devil LOL) what would the explanation be for cutting the valve reliefs in the wrong place on 2 pistons, and not deep enough (but in the right place) on the other 2? And for having the wrong front cam bushing installed, which makes it obvious they didn't measure that clearance upon assembly? I do agree that this is pulling, and we're trying to push this old iron way beyond what it was designed for, so the scored pistons didn't upset me all that much. Hey, stuff happens, but everything else I have wrong here is extremely frustrating.

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VicS

01-15-2013 18:48:25




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-15-2013 04:46:53  
I'd say they had a senior moment! Or talking on their cell phone while they were putting it together, or maybe even TEXING! :-) Vic



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MLPANKEY

01-15-2013 06:40:13




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-15-2013 04:46:53  

mightymolinekid said: (quoted from post at 05:46:53 01/15/13) I should clarify a little, there are 2 events pictured here. The scored piston and destroyed bearing is from the 1st build. No ether was used for starting, and by the time we got the fuel system primed, the guage was showing 30 psi at cranking. The failure happened on the dyno, after break in, so no I didn't get a chance to cold pull it or lug it. The shop admitted it looked to them like the bore clearance was wrong. The top pictures are after the 2nd build. Cylinder walls look OK, but I have a question for Vic (you devil LOL) what would the explanation be for cutting the valve reliefs in the wrong place on 2 pistons, and not deep enough (but in the right place) on the other 2? And for having the wrong front cam bushing installed, which makes it obvious they didn't measure that clearance upon assembly? I do agree that this is pulling, and we're trying to push this old iron way beyond what it was designed for, so the scored pistons didn't upset me all that much. Hey, stuff happens, but everything else I have wrong here is extremely frustrating.
That must be one of them quench fanatic shops . It wasnt in wisconsin was it? Allis 226 engine shouldnt have the piston at zero deck it wasnt designed that way . jmho its to tight on ring end gap for the compression and may be piston to bore also . the oil pressure loss is from main bearing clearance or cam bearings in my opinion. you should have put play dough on the piston and tighten valve lash to zero to see the piston to valve clearance by rolling it over by hand before ever starting it . the mashed thickness of playdough also gives a indication of how deep the valve relefs need cut. our shop is always open monday through friday 9 to 5 if you want to bring it down to us
This post was edited by MLPANKEY at 06:50:49 01/15/13 3 times.

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VicS

01-14-2013 18:00:06




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 12:37:29  
I'll play devil's advocate. Did you charge the oiling system, before you started it the first time? Did you spray either in it to start it right off? Did you cold pull it, with out having the temp guage up. Did you pull it a gear to fast and lug it class after class! I paid $500 to have my blower teflon coated. Makes it .003 instead of .006 . It was cold I had put it on and was getting it ready for Tunica Sprayed either to help start it. Motor pulled down and started squeeking. Bottom line ruined $800 blower and $500 teflon job and could have twisted timing gears. All my fault! Next time I sprayed WD 40. Idled it for a while, and let break in. I was the one who wanted it tight. I had also reduced the oil flow to the blower by 1/2 . The Guy who rebuilt it thought I was putting to much oil to the bearings and pushing it by the seals. Shouldn't have paid any attention. Bottom line expect no warrenty. We are looking for 3 times the horse power these old tractors had to start with, they just have a few hours in them at this level. Check every thing your self. Ask questions and learn what the clearances should be. The first motor I had big sleeves put in, the guy put sleeves in without no lip at the top and welded them in at the bottom. Need-less to say didn't work. Found a new machine shop! Hang in there it will get better. Vic

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Robert Major

01-14-2013 16:59:11




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 12:37:29  
Something is really wrong with that machine shop to mess up like this. I seriously think that something is maybe wrong with the cooling system and the oil flow through that block too looking at that mess and the way it's picked up on the pistons and sleeves. Maybe they have the bore and piston clearances wrong too who the heck knows now!. I certainly would not be going back there for the 3rd time, Id be off to my legal guy! and when I won the court case and damages, go find another motor. I'm thinking this ones done and should be buried! Regards Robert

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d88

01-14-2013 14:27:59




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 12:37:29  
what state is builder from? thats costly!



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6pack

01-14-2013 13:05:39




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 12:37:29  
What machine shop? Do not have to give names, but location to avoid!!!



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Retired Farmer

01-14-2013 12:56:01




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 12:37:29  
That machine shop must have some GOOD help. Think I would be finding another shop that knows what they are doing. Hope you haven't been paying them for work like that.



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mightymolinekid

01-14-2013 13:04:24




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to Retired Farmer, 01-14-2013 12:56:01  
I DID pay them (cash) the first time but they paid the labor on the #2 and now on #3 build. The frustrating part for me is I keep having to buy expensive parts and tear the tractor apart. I personally think they should be buying parts because if they did their job correctly, the parts wouldn't be ruined. I am thankful they're at least standing behind it, he says "bring it back we'll make it right". Well I wish he would have "made it right" to start with.

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Cody

01-14-2013 18:52:49




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 Re: Machine shop (pics) in reply to mightymolinekid, 01-14-2013 13:04:24  
They should have felt that when they had to beat that piston in the block with a stick of wood!! It looks to me that it didn't have enough piston to cylinder wall clearance.



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