what is stock? for the rich or the poor?

I don't know, or really care to know what mopower has for blocks in his tractor, but it has me thinking.

Jdbpuller said in a recent post "stock means stock on the outside", which got me thinking.

Another post about how NATPA is becoming like NHRA has me thinking.

I am a pull organizer, running a "stock" pull. My pull, like some others in the area, used to be heavily regulated, similar to div 2, with the idea that it would give the true "stock" farm tractor a chance to be competitive. After all, how could a little old massey 30 compete with an Oliver 77 sporting an 88 motor, or a 310? How could a little old farmall m compete with a mini ub sporting a 403?

Tractors had to have all parts, front to back, (not including hubs, rims, and tires) with the correct casting numbers. Especially correct numbers on blocks, heads, and crankcases. This proved to be a terribly time consuming job for the teck crew.

But along the way I got to thinking about "stock on the outside". Why is it not ok for a guy to buy a $1500 403 motor and put it in his UB, but a guy can build a $5000 409 stroker for his M and all is good?

A guy can't use a power block, or a Murphy's block in his G (we wouldn't alow power blocks), but he can stroke it to 10".

A guy can't put a 310 in his 77 oliver, but a farmall h can have a motor built bigger than a 450.

Seems that the "stock" classes, similar to div 2, have become a class that caters to the wealthy who can aford to keep their motors "stock on the outside" while making more power than those who would simply repower with a bigger motor.

A class or division for stock type tractors would be nice to have, but if the engines arn't required to be stock on the inside, then why require them to be stock on the outside?

The stock outside, giant stroker motors that are prowling aroung the stock classes are not helping the poor man who can't afford to "hop up" his tractor.

The stock on the outside rule is really killing the poor man's chance, along with the not poor but not rich man's chance, in the very class that was meant for the small time puller: the stock, or near stock class.

Today, the rules at my pull are much more relaxed. A speed limit keeps things toned down somewhat. I know that the big power tractors still have the upper hand on the true stock ones, but why pretend that they are pure stock? If a guy has 100hp in a tractor that from factory had 50, then who cares what components are used to get it there?
 
Good point north puller. Some stock appearing engines can pass as stock by casting numbers. I've seen some div1 tractors that don't even follow that logic. Our low speed limit equalizes it somewhat, even though there's no way to restrict M&W kits and the like. Here are our club's pure stock rules (aside from the General Rules):

Barnyard 2.5 MPH

1. Any regulations not mentioned for Barnyard can be obtained from Clintonia’s general tractor pulling rules.

2. Entry: A tractor may pull in any other class if it meets the criteria. Oliver 88, M-M U, Farmall M, Massey 44, Case DC, Deere G, and like tractors may not pull in classes below 5500#. Oliver 66, M-M R, Farmall H, Allis WC, Deere B, and like tractors may not pull in classes below 3500#.

3. Rims / Wheels / Tires: Tractors must have OEM diameter & width rims. This also applies to welded rims that have been fitted to replace steel wheels. If a tractor was not originally equipped with pressed steel centers, OEM cast iron or spoke centers must be used. Use original hubs only. Tire size may be one size over OEM width for that make/model of tractor. No sharpened tires. “Road worn” tires will be inspected and are subject to track officials’ discretion.

4. Engine: Engines need to have a stock block and be naturally aspirated unless originally equipped from the factory with a blower or turbo. 10% over factory high-idle RPM (see chart) is allowed using a working governor. Stock heads, manifolds, and carburetors are to be used. Engine parts not listed in a manufacturer’s parts book for that specific model cannot be used. No electronic ignition systems or coils that vary from original shape. The only exceptions include magneto/distributor and 6V/12V generator/alternator conversions.

5. Appearance: If a part is not listed in the manufacturer’s parts book, it cannot be used. No aluminum or chrome is allowed except for exhaust pipes. All covers and guards shall be in place and made using original specs (steel or iron). The tractor seat must use stock mountings. No fabricated engine shrouds allowed. Any altered items are subject to officials’ discretion.

6. Weights & Hitch: No weights shall extend beyond eleven feet from the center of the rear axle. Hitch point will extend beyond the radius of the rear tires and 19” or less from the ground. Wheelie bars are recommended and may become mandatory.
 
Being one of the board members for the Iowa state fair I understand what you are saying. We have a stock class that is what I would call div2. My b---h is that the FFA kids wont bring the tractors they restored over and pull them. Why would they want to? They cant even get the chain tight and the rest of the so called stock tractors spin out with ease. There is a bad A john deere that pulls stock and brags that he has close to 100 horse, so he idles down the track in third gear and beats everyone by 25 feet. What is the fun in shooting fish in a barrel? If you have the ponys step up to the plate with some big cut rubber and run with tractors of your degree. I dont pull in the stock class but I feel that the term STOCK meams STOCK. Now is where Ill step on some toes. Allis, 14.9-28 max tire size, stock block, no d17,I can live with a late manifold. Oliver, no 99, no 195GK, no twelve port head, stock block. Deere, no power blocks, no heisler heads, no duplex carbs on early tractors. IH, stock block, no propane heads on gasoline tractors. MM, case and deere, same rules as IH. 15.5 maximum tire size for all but allis. (If you allis guys can find 15.5-28 tires thats legal, good luck on that). NO CUT TIRE OF ANY KIND!!!!Why? cut tires were not an opition on any tractor ever! This is the stock class!!! Now that you have all read my Idea for the 2013 Iowa state fair stock class rules, Im going to go hide. Im sure the insults will fly, and that im a stupid SOB, thats fine. Everyone needs to think about what the term stock means!!!
 
Hats off to buickandeere! I forgot the part about factory shipping weight. Also, 3.0 mph, and stock drawbar not to be more than 18 inches high. I think the 11 foot rule is fair on the front weight bracket, eveyone can be the same there then.
 
Hats off to buickandeere! I forgot the part about factory shipping weight. Also, 3.0 mph, and stock drawbar not to be more than 18 inches high. I think the 11 foot rule is fair on the front weight bracket, eveyone can be the same there then.
 
Yes 585 you are an S.O.B.. LOL! The stock class is got to be one of the hardest and most pain in the a"" classes to deal with. What is a real stock tractor? I really wish we could have a for real STOCK out of the factory class. Are M&W kits allowed, are later blocks and heads allowed, bigger tires then factory allowed. If you put a complete M&W kit in a stock M and then add a 450 lp head-you have a healthy tractor.Is this stock? Is it factory or replacement parts? And yes-I'm sick and tired of people that can't hang anymore in a DIV 3 or 4 class and drop down to a like DIV 1 or 2 class with the same tractor that pulled in DIV 3 and 4. This class was made for people on a budget,for kids, FFA and 4-H projects, a parade tractor or just the tractor that belonged to grandpa that we got going and want to start tractor pulling with. We all have to start somewhere. Let this people have some fun and leave them alone. We must try to get new blood and the young involved or the sport will die. Instead you have the same old three tractors in a class with all three tractors cheating and bitching for a $10.00 trophy. "I've always wanted to pull stock class but, I don't have enough power so I pull the open classes".I've heard this time and time again. And to you guys and girls just starting- do not let people get you down at the track or on this forum. There is never a dumb questions just alot of dumb answers. Pull where you belong!
 
I can appreciate all the opinions that have been posted. My beef with these big motor big money tractors is pull against a worthy competator. For instance, at a local event a big motor big money tractor entered a class that would dodge some of the out of town competition. How can you be the best without beating the best, then come and brag that you win against the local competition.
 
(quoted from post at 19:39:36 10/23/12) Being one of the board members for the Iowa state fair I understand what you are saying. We have a stock class that is what I would call div2. My b---h is that the FFA kids wont bring the tractors they restored over and pull them. Why would they want to? They cant even get the chain tight and the rest of the so called stock tractors spin out with ease. There is a bad A john deere that pulls stock and brags that he has close to 100 horse, so he idles down the track in third gear and beats everyone by 25 feet. What is the fun in shooting fish in a barrel? If you have the ponys step up to the plate with some big cut rubber and run with tractors of your degree. I dont pull in the stock class but I feel that the term STOCK meams STOCK. Now is where Ill step on some toes. Allis, 14.9-28 max tire size, stock block, no d17,I can live with a late manifold. Oliver, no 99, no 195GK, no twelve port head, stock block. Deere, no power blocks, no heisler heads, no duplex carbs on early tractors. IH, stock block, no propane heads on gasoline tractors. MM, case and deere, same rules as IH. 15.5 maximum tire size for all but allis. (If you allis guys can find 15.5-28 tires thats legal, good luck on that). NO CUT TIRE OF ANY KIND!!!!Why? cut tires were not an opition on any tractor ever! This is the stock class!!! Now that you have all read my Idea for the 2013 Iowa state fair stock class rules, Im going to go hide. Im sure the insults will fly, and that im a stupid SOB, thats fine. Everyone needs to think about what the term stock means!!!


Why are the power blocks and heisler heads not legal, were they not built to increase power in the field for stock farm tractors. The power block doesn't even have as much compression as a new set of aluminum pistons. The heisler head was designed to allow good use of better fuels available to farmers using older tractors.
 
In reading the discussion a thought popped into my head. It seems there should be a class somewhere between 3mph or 3.5mph and open (no speed limit) for NATPA. I find the comment about "I pull the open class because it is easier than the stock" very interesting. Guys have strong tractors, yes, but perhaps would like to compete in a faster speed limit class but not open ended. Get my drift? This might free up the stock classes for more stock type tractors.

This is one of those beating a dead horse kind of discussions. We can talk all day about what casting numbers are legal and what is fair but it just complicates things and the tech checks become tedious. Tunica and the USAP really have the best rules dialed in to address stock vs. modified and what engine components are allowed. Basically if it bolts up, run it. Pick your speed limit class and lets go. The 3mph stock class has restrictions on tire size & cut and tractor weight, so even fresh off the farm guys can compete. We had a guy on a bone stock Ford 800 win the 4000lb 3mph class last spring against some regular pullers. Most folks who bolt a 403 in a UB, 310 in a 77, Gleaner in a WC, etc. like to compete in the faster classes anyway and it keeps the cubic dollars required lower. It also makes for a better pull since nobody likes to stall out in 1st gear. Most guys who have more power run bigger tires anyway that put them in the faster classes. My take on it anyway.

Zack

PS - Poking fun - no problem with the Deere power blocks. They need all the help they can get to catch up. :)
 
MNJDG think about what you just said. Heisler heads and power blocks were built to gain power or they wouldent have been built. Bigger bore, raised compresion. NOT STOCK!
 
MMzack, Look at the post here from the mn deere guy. His thought is that power blocks and heisler heads on a deere should be legal in the stock class. The problem in my area IS guys with 310 77 olivers and gleaner allis tractors DO think they should be allowed in the stock class. THATS THE PROBLEM!!!!!
 
MNJDG, I have the original heisler pamplet that tells the horse power gains using there heads, and pistons.They didnt seem to much care obout old tractors and new fuel. Tsc power Block, They should have called it the big bore low compresion block then? Excellent attempt at pushing the rules though!! If Deere didnt manufacture the block or head for the modle tractor its bolted to then it isnt as it came from the factory, Thus IT ISNT STOCK! This should include a flat head on a late G!
 
(quoted from post at 01:26:05 10/24/12) MNJDG think about what you just said. Heisler heads and power blocks were built to gain power or they wouldent have been built. Bigger bore, raised compresion. NOT STOCK!

Like Zack said, we need all the help we can get. John Deere were overweight and under powered compared to other brand. So as fuels got better they needed something to keep up.

I have pulled from bone stock to bored and stroked John Deeres, found no matter what, if you win, you are called a cheater.
 
Mm585 the thing u.don't.get tho is that you can put the same stuff in a wc block. But why should u have to switch it into a wc? Then u have to buy two motors. Just bolt in a gleaner and save time space and money. There is no other advantage past that. Not like a 310 in an oliver..whooole different thing there
 
The local club in my area has a very simple set of rules for the antique class that keeps the playing field even. Blocks, heads, manifolds, and carb must be factory parts. Tires can be any size but no cuts. Then it goes by weight and horsepower where you are allowed a maximum of 1 horsepower for every 100 lbs of tractor. So the 4000 class is limited to 40 horses, 4500 lbs gets 45 hp, etc, etc.. They have a dyno on hand and anyone can ask to have your tractor tested if they suspect you are over powered. Keeps everyone real honest.
 
(quoted from post at 17:44:38 10/23/12) This should include a flat head on a late G!

Thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard since back in the day Deere would actually go out and put flatheads on late Gs to convert them over to gas form all-fuel. So your saying something that Deere bolted on itself is not allowed?


Guys, look at any pull. Most of the guys pulling are not stock. So if you chase those guys away who is going to pull? Like it not those guys are a huge part in your pull no matter where you are. Lets just say if the rules are stock blocks and head, stock tires, stock weight, etc. then what stops me from sleeveing the block out to 7", port and polish the head, and throwing in a 10" crank? Is it going to get to the point where the people running the pulls are going to start pulling crankcase covers? Thats really going to get people coming to pulls....


How about this, have the rules somewhat open as to mods go but make everyone (that has a pto) dyno their tractor before the pull and place everyone into classes based on that. And for the guys who do not have a pto, they can be placed in the open class and it would keep them from pulling with all of the stock guys.
 
whoever takes a 100% bone stock tractor to a competitive pull does it once!! some people can't get that thru their heads. we encourage FFA kids/local restored stock club/etc to "show off" their restored tractors as pulloff/tow vehicles, etc...if they want to pull...let them pull kinda by themselves(end of day? or just a FFA class)...get them the "bug" that way......if you run off the tractors that currently pull in the "stock" class cause they are stock on the outside and do stay under your speed limit you'll have NOONE at the pull either! you can talk about this all day, every day, not gonna fix much of anything...
 
I am a big fan of the speed limit rule and tire limitations. I love the way Brad Peters runs his events and look at the turn out!

3.5 no cut, saftey rpm limit, agriculture motor that is of the same make of the tractor

5.5 any cut "

Open with same as above.

People end up where they belong some drop into a lower class, but the speed limit makes balances it out in my opinion espically with a even transfer pan (no drop pans).
 
Okay, first, lets look at the guy who thinks his flat head G is legal in the stock class. If we make a rule that a late G can run a flat head then we have to adjust the rules for all colors, fair is fair. This would make it legal for farmall H and M tractors to run a propane head, allis a leroy head, and the MM tractors can run 800/605 heads. Did any of these tractors come from the factory with these heads NO, thus they are NOT STOCK. Next for the allis guy who wants to run a d17 motor in a wc. You said it was to much trouble to switch the guts from the 17 motor to the wc, a d17 motor has 1/2 inch longer stroke than a wc so that crank isnt legal in a stock wc anyway. OEM parts in the stock class. If you want to run big motors step up a class and give the guys trying to get in to the sport a chance.
 
Well, it seems that we can all agree that there is a problem with fairly hot tractors running in the stock classes.

Where to draw the line between hot and stock is another discussion.

I wasn't really asking for rule sugestions, as I already have a plan in place for our pull.

I was just making an observation.

As I see it, there are 2 choices for a stock pull:

1. Have a horsepower limit and dyno every tractor.

2. Allow unlimited horsepower and deal with it in another way. (Most of us agree that a speed limit is the prefered way to do this)

So my thought is either way, why not allow bolt in replacement parts or complete engines.

Back to the money thing: a guy can take a farmall m, keep the stock block, head, and all other parts, and have a 130hp or better tractor while staying completely stock on the outside and passing a stock tractor tech inspection. Just takes a lot of money. If this is ok at a stock pull, then why not allow the 310 oliver, and the 403, or even the 605 mini?

A repower is cheaper than a custom big cube stroker. Why make the rules to suit the wealthy and keep out only the repower motors and parts?

A true horsepower limit really is the only way to ensure true stock tractors, but most clubs don't want to deal with this kind of work. And let's face it, if you ban all the modified tractors, there will be no pullers left.

I am not trying to say anybody else should change their pull or their rules. Just making my opinion. I like the Tunica style of rules regarding engines and parts. I think is actually is a little more fair.
 
Poor? How poor are you? Your Grand Parents in the Depression never dreamed of having weekends free to go tractor pulling. Let alone having a tractor , truck or a trailer. Or the $ for fuel, entry fees , food booth, hotel rooms. Let alone hot rod goodies for the tractor.
Lets look around and how much of the world's population marvel at the extravagant luxuries you enjoy . Such as your own home, tractor, workshop, tools, farm, tractor, trailer $, freedom to attend, good roads and safe surroundings with a minimum of thugs and thieves.
About time to thank the Almighty for what you have.
 
Okay Im done trying to make my point that 90% of the stock tractor pullers dont know the meaning of the term stock. Stock means stock, modified, means modified. At the state fair if there is a problem its ALWAYS and I do mean ALWAYS in the stock class. Someone is always running to one of the board members screeming that the outher guy is cheating. There isnt a stock tractor in the bunch. A 541 inch engine in an 88 in the stock class,,,,,give me a break, but its there every year. I guess if beating up on an ffa kid with a stock tractor with a modified tractor makes you feel like you have relly done something then go for it. That ten dollar trophy doesnt mean much to most of us but to a 16 year old kid that won with his school project it means the world, and we have a fresh face in the game. Rules mean nothing if they are not enforced. Im done bitching now!
 
I never said that I was poor. I am not trying to convince someone to let me pull a 600 some inch oliver at the local fair. I'm not taking for granted anyone who lived during the great depression.

Buick, I believe you know who I am. I know who you are. We have both pulled our tractors at the Upper Canada Two Cylinder show, which is loosly called a "stock antique" tractor pull, and I know that both our tractors are not 100% pure stock.

I am not trying to sneak something in that doesn't belong.

I just fail to see the difference between a 150hp 600 inch engine with the correct block and casting numbers, and a 150hp, 600 inch engine with the wrong block or casting numbers. That's all I'm trying to say. IF you will allow one to pull, you should allow the other to pull as well.

I didn't say that it is right to have either in a stock class. Thankfully those kind of hot tractors don't really exist in our pulling circle. However, we could use the example of a 75 or 80 hp tractor, with or without the correct numbers and parts. Why is one allowed and not the other?

By the way, my tractor does have all correct casting numbers, if that matters in this discussion.
 
Oh sorry, it just clicked now. I should have clued in a long time ago it was you.
I missed the Paisley and Dunganon show this year due to family commitments. Blyth was rained out and I wasn't going to trailer a tractor all the way to nnalert.
Have plans to get out more next year. I heard they got the Paisley track's slick center ridge worked down.
Took the kids out a few times with the 110's. Totally stock 8HP K181's and they still placed middle of the class or better against the 20-30HP "stock" tractors.
The flag man had to trot or run to keep up with most tractors.A few he never even tried to keep up and just stood at the far end of the track.
 
605 heads didnt come on tractors? Have you ever even seen a 605? Every head available on a 605 was available on a tractor even the HD 605 it had 4231 or 4232 heads which were on M670 and G1000 tractors. The 800 heads are still factory produced heads and not aftermarket like the farmall and jds use.
 
Same manufacturer, same number cylinders for model of tractor, pull under a speed limit, what is the difference if its a 301 or 310 or whatever MM"s are allowed, (nobody really knows) dropped in versus a built up original block for that tractor? One costs more, one you drop in!! I have pulled against both and could care less how they make their power. Lost and won against both. This of course is not in stock classes but speed limit classes! USAP has good rules in my opinion.
 
Hi Guys
from what I can see tractor pulling is now getting like all other motor sports the guy that gets 4th place is the guy with the lesser amount of money in his rig and did the best, 1st 2nd or 3rd are usually the huge dollar outfits and if you beat one with a junk old Belarus or something dont plan on going back to that pull.


It also depends if your in the "Group" or not as to what runs or don't at a lot of pulls. I was at a local pull the 1155 Massey that runs good and won its class is too new they told the guy to stay at home in the future, The David Brown that's the same age and cant hardly move the sled no problem pull all you want in its weight class, so go figure that one.

From the other comments I see about different things on here the big money and things that happen around will kill the sport in the end. pulling is supposed to be fun and for every body and budget from antique to 6 engine modified and that funs going out of the sport fast.
Regards Robert
 
(quoted from post at 08:24:58 10/24/12) Okay, first, lets look at the guy who thinks his flat head G is legal in the stock class. If we make a rule that a late G can run a flat head then we have to adjust the rules for all colors, fair is fair. This would make it legal for farmall H and M tractors to run a propane head, allis a leroy head, and the MM tractors can run 800/605 heads. Did any of these tractors come from the factory with these heads NO, thus they are NOT STOCK. Next for the allis guy who wants to run a d17 motor in a wc. You said it was to much trouble to switch the guts from the 17 motor to the wc, a d17 motor has 1/2 inch longer stroke than a wc so that crank isnt legal in a stock wc anyway. OEM parts in the stock class. If you want to run big motors step up a class and give the guys trying to get in to the sport a chance.

Hate to break it to you but late G's that were gas and not all-fuel has flatheads on them according to an old JD tech I talked too.

With that aside, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE SWAPPING PARTS AROUND! Thats what makes tractor pulling fun, taking a stock tractor and swapping enough parts around to make it competitive. In some cases it doesn't take 10k to make a decent running engine if you know what your doing. As far as a D17 crank in a WC, can you tell if it's in there without pulling the pan? (i'm asking because I have no idea, just curious)

Look at the attendance of pure stock pulls and the attendance with some hotter stuff, it's pretty apparent what people want to watch anyway....
 
Factory farmer, I own a few G's myself. The oldest being sn.1003 the latest being a 52. so if you want to talk G john deeres with me and what they had for heads and how they were equiped from the factory ill take you on a tour of my machine shed. So what your are saying is that its okay to run a 1/2 inch crankshaft in a wc allis in the stock class as long as nobody knows it, and you cant see it from the out side??? Even if the rules say stock?? Guess its okay to cheat then as long as you dont get caught?? Might as well try a blown hemi then.
 
lklklklklklklk. Funny you should ask if I have ever even seen a 605. I just bolted an Hd800 in to a massey super 95 for my son to run and This summer I hauled an hd605 home from kansas with the idea of converting it to diesel for my gb diesel. How do you figure a farmall lp head isnt factory? there are repops out there but the 350 and 450 lp tractors had lp heads. A picture is worth a thousand words. Tell me now, do you feel a little silly asking me if I had ever seen a 605???
a87158.jpg

a87159.jpg

a87159.jpg

a87158.jpg
 
But apparently you cant read part #s Every 605 head ever used was also used on a tractor. Do you understand yet? Oh congratulations on the 800 I am sure you were the first to figure that out.
 
LKLKLKLKLKLK I can read part numbers just fine, 4229 is the one I like. The point I was trying to make was that rectangle port heads shouldent be allowed in the stock class on a U or UB ect. As you can see I like HD800s but I feel they belong in the open div5 clases. Im by no means the first to put an HD800 in a gvi or 95 I was just showing you what kind of tractors I like to pull and that mabie Im not a compleat idot when it comes to molines as you would like to think I am. I posted a couple of pictures of my projects and I would like it if you could share some photos of what you pull. I also have a single front red face U single block that I pull with that has a head casting number of KE282E small chambers and 14mm plugs. Nobody I have talked to seems to know anything about it. Your a moline casting number expert mabie you can help me out. thank you for all of your words of wisdom thus far, its always nice to share info with a fellow moline puller.
 
(quoted from post at 21:24:10 10/24/12) Factory farmer, I own a few G's myself. The oldest being sn.1003 the latest being a 52. so if you want to talk G john deeres with me and what they had for heads and how they were equiped from the factory ill take you on a tour of my machine shed. So what your are saying is that its okay to run a 1/2 inch crankshaft in a wc allis in the stock class as long as nobody knows it, and you cant see it from the out side??? Even if the rules say stock?? Guess its okay to cheat then as long as you dont get caught?? Might as well try a blown hemi then.

If you don't mind me asking where do you live? The SN 1003 rings a bell, I almost think I have visited you before. So did late gas Gs have flatheads or not? I only know what I have been told from other people and that information is not always correct.

Yes, that's pretty much how the stock class works around here. It's about the only thing I've ever known. Alot of backyard engineering goes on like that and in the end most people have fun.

Now how about this, if you have to keep the stock block and head then would the tractor still be considered stock if the face of the head (if it's not a flathead) and the back of the block were shaved off in your opinion?

I took a mostly 100% stock tractor to a pull one and will never ever do it again.
 
One way is stock RPM 1st grear long long chain 2.5 speed. What is the first thing big motor tractor ??? about . In the cubs here long chain and the tracks
are to hard.
 
Sorry, but I love true Stock pulls the best. Might be slow, lacking smoke and fire, but exciting for me.

I pull A-C tractors and have used most brands of tractors during my short lifetime. What I have used and seen in the field is not what I see on the tracks for the most part.
 

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