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oil based paints over epoxy primer

C

Cormiers Cove

Member
Has anyone used the oil based Alkyd paints over Epoxy primer and what did you do to prep the surface prior to painting?

I used AGCO paint over epoxy primer with no prep work the day after the epoxy was applied and I have mixed results. The AGCO paints use acetone for a thinner and I don't think they bite into the epoxy primer that well.

After doing some research I have determined that using Alkyd single component paints such as the AGCO paints are not recommended to use over Epoxy primer.

I guess I should have a used a urethane paint or an epoxy paint over the epoxy primer.
 
Probably the problem was the use of acetone. I've never used that paint before but I think if you had thinned it with naphtha and scuff sanded the primer it would have done fine.
 
The paint thinner AGCO sells for it paints is supposedly Naphtha. When I use epoxy primer (and even when I don't use epoxy primer) I put on a couple of coats of gray primer/sealer on before applying any paint.
 
I just don't like the idea of using acetone in an alkyd paint. It's such a hot solvent if you were to put a coat of paint on and wait until the next day to put another coat on the first coat would likely lift. You've seen rattle can paints that say something like put all the coats on within a couple hours or wait seven days, it's the acetone they put in the paint which causes this. All you gain by using acetone is a little faster drying time. It just isn't worth the headaches it can cause.
 
What is the recoat window for the primer you used? How close to that were you to the end of that? What brand of epoxy? I've used several brands of epoxy and have had no problems, but I'd suspect the recoat window they specify is approximate and I always adjust my practice based on temp. If it's colder then it should cure slower, but if really warm it may kick sooner and require sanding before topcoats.
 
The epoxy primer is Allcure 442 Grey Epoxy Primer by AllColour
The recoat time is up to 72 hours
Topcoat time within one week

We painted the tractor within 20 hours last July. It was fairly warm. I figuring it cured fast and was too hard when we painted the tractor.

I called the company and spoke to a technician and he said that Urethane paints and Epoxy paints 2 component type paints would be better as the recoat window is longer but with the Alkyd oil based single component paints that we should have painted it within a few hours of being epoxy primed.

Lesson learned I guess. Apparently reading the Technical Data Sheet and going by dry and cure times and recoat times is not an exact science with all types of paints.
 
The paint has bonding issues. It's not pealing or anything like that but while reassembling the parts to the tractor the paint was easily removed without much force if for instance you used a ratchet and the handle tapped the nearby components. The paint came off without much effort.

The photos show a few spots. I know it doesn't look like a big deal but with the paint scuffing off that easily and we took much care in reassembling, I'm not looking forward to using this tractor.

10439.jpg
 
It's all going to come off. The primer got too hard and since it wasn't scuff sanded the topcoat had nothing to get a bite on. All paints are a certain amount porous. What makes epoxy primer better is it is less porous than even a lot of the paints you put over the top. Being less porous it can make the topcoat more difficult to bond. The more dry the primer gets the less porous it gets. This is the reason for the recoat window. Every paint has it quirks and you have had to learn the hard way about this one. If you stick with that paint it will get a lot easier the next time. Some times when people run into a problem with a product they will change to a different product and then find it has it's own different problems. The application data provided by the paint companies are a good start.
 
Why the AGCO paint says to use acetone is a mystery to me (I'd like to read the side of the can), acetone is pretty good at removing grease, oil, and paint. Personally I think the acetone ruined the paint (dissolved, or thinned out any adhesion promoters in the paint) before it even came out of the spray gun. Don't feel too bad, I knew a guy who put epoxy primer on a Jeep body. The next morning he found over half of the epoxy primer laying on the floor (in sheets), the rest was easily pressure washed off. After talking to him he thought he could get away with not having any water/oil separators on his air compressor.[/url]
 
PTfarmer- i followed the can to the exact mix ratios and what to use. The Flint Metallic Grey called for a 8 to 1 ratio of paint to AGCO thinner and the red which is the newer low VOC paint called for 6 to 1 ratio of paint and acetone. So we bought the AGCO thinner for the grey and bought Acetone for the red. I measured these paints and thinners with a syringe to make sure the mix was bang on. I paid so much attention to times for a second coat that it was meticulous. The problem was the epoxy primer getting too hard before we put the paint on. Apparently cure and recoat times for this brand of epoxy primer and the air temperature playing a big factor really but a screw into things. 15 to 20 hours wait time with air temps overnight around 65 to 75 was not good. I would have had a longer recoat window under these conditions with a two component urethane paint or epoxy paint from what the technician told me the other day.
 

I followed the recoat times on the technical data sheet. I was well within the limits. The max was 72 hours and the topcoat time was 7 days. Whatever topcoat means. We epoxy coated the bare metal tractor in late afternoon and finished around 5:00pm. It was dark at 9. We painted the tractor the next day starting around noon. Evidently the primer was set up and too hard with the overnight air temps. Apparently from what the technician said, my recoat window was severely reduced because of using the alkyd paint with just acetone as a thinner and because of the air temps causing the epoxy to cure sooner. It just comes down to using a alkyd paint and lack of experience.
 
This time of year is not really the best time to paint unless you have a climate controlled paint booth. Without a paint booth you are taking a chance, I've seen some get away with it, and some who didn't. My first paint job didn't go exactly as planned (I know the feeling you have now), but I learned a lot from it.
 
Regardless it's a bummer that it happened. Its not easy to clean something like a tractor, prime it, paint it, and the paint doesn't stick like it should.
 
Yeah for sure.

The tractor looks great. The paint won't rub off or anything. You have to strike it with something to remove the paint down to the primer. We put a clear over it with hardener in it as the AGCO paint wasn't as hard as I would have liked. At least the clear bit into the paint and has a good bond. IT gives it a harder shell.

Part of this is because for some stupid reason AGCO doesn't put on their cans to use a hardener when mixing their paint and because of this the curing time is very long and really unknown from what I was told by the Valspar technician as AGCO paints are made by Valspar. But the paint application guide online by AGCO states to have a professional industrial finish to use a Renew hardener at a mix ration of 4 to 1. From the guide, it increases the curing time substantially. This really ------ me off as nobody at Massey dealer could tell us this and they had no clue of a AGCO paint application guide after I complained and found this out on a google search.

The technician at Valspar was involved after I complained to Massey about what I discovered in the paint application guide and that it even specified a certain hardener to use called Renew but it was nowhere to be found at the parts dealer or on the shelf. I would have used this for sure but I was not even made aware of it and the frigging can doesn't show it. The technician said they don't put it on the can because of the harmful chemicals in the hardener. I laughed out loud and told him that was non sense and what does AGCO expect when someone paints a tractor and they want the industrial finish. I said I wasn't painting a flower pot for F sakes.
 
We took the tractor apart and had it sandblasted before the epoxy primer. The entire project has cost my father and I a lot of money not to mention the time put into it. So when the paint wasn't 100% we are not exactly happy about the whole thing but we reassembled it and put many new parts.

new parts:

2 rear wheels and new tubes
steering wheel and chrome hardware
gauges and tachometer and cable
LED light for rear and new flasher light
shifter boots
knobs for quadrant
seals for hydraulic drain plugs
draft spring nut and plunger shaft and installed as per spec
boot for top link
fenders
seat and fabricated slider bracket
lift bars and new chains and shackles and pins
PTO seal and O ring
wire harness
lights
neutral safety switch
battery
screw on fuel filter heads and filters, your idea. Thanks
fabricated a few new fuel lines as per your instructions.
bottom chin panel
chrome carriage bolts for the bonnet door hinges
rubber trim for the instrument panel
chrome throttle leaver
light switch
rebuilt kit for fuel lift pump
o-ring kit for the hydraulic pump and filter
decals
massey Ferguson bonnet badge
grille
chrome grille fasteners
bonnet door chrome levers
oil bath clamp and O-ring for the can
gas tank bolts and springs
heater at intake manifold and fabricated new fuel line
radiator hoses and water pump hoses
stainless hose clamps
radiator cap
exhaust manifold, exhaust pipe and horizontal muffler,
thermostat and gasket
head gasket
valve cover gasket
hydraulic fluid and oil change
gaskets for hydraulic cover, dipstick side plate
gaskets for pump mounting pins
gasket for lift pump and screw on oil head
lots of new fasteners. Many were stainless except for the big stuff and we used grade 8 bolts.

We decided to have the original bonnet sandblasted and the original side panels repaired and sandblasted. The fenders and body panels were painted with base coat clear coat. We had the gas tank and radiator serviced. We torqued the head bolts before and rechecked after we ran it for a short time since we replaced the head gasket. We set the valves and rechecked. We flushed out all the antifreeze and replaced the shut offs at the radiator and engine block.

We shortened the roll bar and had it sandblasted and painted. We sandblasted the foot plates and after priming we used truck bed coating to cover them with several coats.

I set the hydraulic levers as per the 3 pound setting when we had he cover off and set the hydraulic pump lever as per the specs.

We bought all new brake hardware and new shoes but they were not needed. When we pulled off he drums everything was just like new. So now we are stuck with a few hundred bucks of brake parts. We also bought a new hydraulic valve in case we needed it when I took apart the hydraulic pump and we did not need it.

It was a long deal and very frustrating at times just dealing with the stupid crap getting bad side panels and chin piece from the UK. Nothing fit and I tried twice from the UK and twice from Massey dealers locally with Sparex parts. I got my money back but it was a headache and long drawn out process. Then having to use the old side panels and have them repaired wasn't planned for. Replacing the wheels wasn't planned either. We only discovered this after the old ones were sandblasted and epoxy primed. Then we saw the rot around the valve stem from the calcium chloride and we pulled he tires off and saw the rot it was a no brainer. Tubes were shot also. So we had to order new wheels and we got elevens for the 31 tires. They fit them better. But we had to sand them lightly and repaint them also to get the desired colour. All that extra cost just for wheels that wasn't planned for.

The radiator was another pain. It's not the original and the lower hose kept leaking because the spout was just a hair to small and after checking the measurements I wonder why that radiator outlet wasn't bigger or the new radiator hose a bit smaller. So we had to get a rubber sleeve to fit and the hose fit over it nicely.

Little things that turned into headaches such as hydraulic oil leaking after we had everything all done. Had to drain the hydraulic oil and have a new PTO seal pressed in. It wasn't leaking before we pulled the shaft out to remove the hydraulic pump and that probably caused it leak. The sealing washers under the drain plugs gave me fits until I cleaned the surface on the housing really good and turned the copper seals around and torqued them down more then the specs called for. That was after we dropped a bolt into the casing and it fell under the hydraulic pump which we just installed and put the cover on temporarily to set the lever. It was pretty much full of fluid because we ran it to make sure everything was fine before sealing the cover down. So that one bolt had to be fished out after draining the hydraulic fluid. Needless to say we were happy to finally get the cover back on and call it done.

There still are a few things that I'm going to work on. Some of the fuel lines are seeping. I bought rubber olives and will install them in the spring. I'm not 100% happy with the valve cover gasket. It's seeping and it's probably because we didn't use the right compound for the gasket. That valve cover rounded edge that bares onto the cork gasket its a horrible design in my opinion. Too much torque and the gasket squeezes out and not enough and then the valve cover is not tight. I'll probably pull off the gas tank and do the valve cover gasket over and put the rubber olives on the fuel lines in the spring.

The oil pan sump needs to be taken off and the seals all replaced as I noticed a few drops of oil leaking on the floor. I thought it was the main crank seal in the front but it's actually not.

The lights were a pain. Bought stuff on ebay from India and they were junk. They were painted shut and I could not install the bulbs they supplied. I had to basically ruin the paint getting them apart and sand them down. Used etching primer on the bare metal and painted the parts separately. I still haven't reassembled them yet. I got my money back from the bozos in India but the hassle was just not worth it. But my dad wanted black lights. Otherwise I would have bought a better quality already painted red locally.

We still don't have the bonnet all done yet. I'm getting it repainted again as I was not happy with the job. He did a good job knocking out the dents on the old side panels but should have taken a few more hours for prep work before painting.

I'm working on getting the appropriate brackets for the horizontal exhaust and getting an exhaust pipe bent as again the aftermarket Sparex one is junk. It's easier to start over with a new length of pipe. I'm going to use stainless and make a flange. A local muffler shop will do the bends.

IT just seems like so much of this was a pain in the a$$. I doubt I will ever attempt it again.

I will post pics when I get the bonnet on and the exhaust is done.
 
Don't feel bad, I'm a professional painter and furniture refinisher and it happens to me from time to time using a finish unfamiliar with me. It also makes it more difficult because the paint companies are more concerned about putting out info there about you not being exposed to lead or anything else that you might sue them over than using the paint.
 
(quoted from post at 02:10:01 02/10/18) We took the tractor apart and had it sandblasted before the epoxy primer. The entire project has cost my father and I a lot of money not to mention the time put into it. So when the paint wasn't 100% we are not exactly happy about the whole thing but we reassembled it and put many new parts.

new parts:

2 rear wheels and new tubes
steering wheel and chrome hardware
gauges and tachometer and cable
LED light for rear and new flasher light
shifter boots
knobs for quadrant
seals for hydraulic drain plugs
draft spring nut and plunger shaft and installed as per spec
boot for top link
fenders
seat and fabricated slider bracket
lift bars and new chains and shackles and pins
PTO seal and O ring
wire harness
lights
neutral safety switch
battery
screw on fuel filter heads and filters, your idea. Thanks
fabricated a few new fuel lines as per your instructions.
bottom chin panel
chrome carriage bolts for the bonnet door hinges
rubber trim for the instrument panel
chrome throttle leaver
light switch
rebuilt kit for fuel lift pump
o-ring kit for the hydraulic pump and filter
decals
massey Ferguson bonnet badge
grille
chrome grille fasteners
bonnet door chrome levers
oil bath clamp and O-ring for the can
gas tank bolts and springs
heater at intake manifold and fabricated new fuel line
radiator hoses and water pump hoses
stainless hose clamps
radiator cap
exhaust manifold, exhaust pipe and horizontal muffler,
thermostat and gasket
head gasket
valve cover gasket
hydraulic fluid and oil change
gaskets for hydraulic cover, dipstick side plate
gaskets for pump mounting pins
gasket for lift pump and screw on oil head
lots of new fasteners. Many were stainless except for the big stuff and we used grade 8 bolts.

We decided to have the original bonnet sandblasted and the original side panels repaired and sandblasted. The fenders and body panels were painted with base coat clear coat. We had the gas tank and radiator serviced. We torqued the head bolts before and rechecked after we ran it for a short time since we replaced the head gasket. We set the valves and rechecked. We flushed out all the antifreeze and replaced the shut offs at the radiator and engine block.

We shortened the roll bar and had it sandblasted and painted. We sandblasted the foot plates and after priming we used truck bed coating to cover them with several coats.

I set the hydraulic levers as per the 3 pound setting when we had he cover off and set the hydraulic pump lever as per the specs.

We bought all new brake hardware and new shoes but they were not needed. When we pulled off he drums everything was just like new. So now we are stuck with a few hundred bucks of brake parts. We also bought a new hydraulic valve in case we needed it when I took apart the hydraulic pump and we did not need it.

It was a long deal and very frustrating at times just dealing with the stupid crap getting bad side panels and chin piece from the UK. Nothing fit and I tried twice from the UK and twice from Massey dealers locally with Sparex parts. I got my money back but it was a headache and long drawn out process. Then having to use the old side panels and have them repaired wasn't planned for. Replacing the wheels wasn't planned either. We only discovered this after the old ones were sandblasted and epoxy primed. Then we saw the rot around the valve stem from the calcium chloride and we pulled he tires off and saw the rot it was a no brainer. Tubes were shot also. So we had to order new wheels and we got elevens for the 31 tires. They fit them better. But we had to sand them lightly and repaint them also to get the desired colour. All that extra cost just for wheels that wasn't planned for.

The radiator was another pain. It's not the original and the lower hose kept leaking because the spout was just a hair to small and after checking the measurements I wonder why that radiator outlet wasn't bigger or the new radiator hose a bit smaller. So we had to get a rubber sleeve to fit and the hose fit over it nicely.

Little things that turned into headaches such as hydraulic oil leaking after we had everything all done. Had to drain the hydraulic oil and have a new PTO seal pressed in. It wasn't leaking before we pulled the shaft out to remove the hydraulic pump and that probably caused it leak. The sealing washers under the drain plugs gave me fits until I cleaned the surface on the housing really good and turned the copper seals around and torqued them down more then the specs called for. That was after we dropped a bolt into the casing and it fell under the hydraulic pump which we just installed and put the cover on temporarily to set the lever. It was pretty much full of fluid because we ran it to make sure everything was fine before sealing the cover down. So that one bolt had to be fished out after draining the hydraulic fluid. Needless to say we were happy to finally get the cover back on and call it done.

There still are a few things that I'm going to work on. Some of the fuel lines are seeping. I bought rubber olives and will install them in the spring. I'm not 100% happy with the valve cover gasket. It's seeping and it's probably because we didn't use the right compound for the gasket. That valve cover rounded edge that bares onto the cork gasket its a horrible design in my opinion. Too much torque and the gasket squeezes out and not enough and then the valve cover is not tight. I'll probably pull off the gas tank and do the valve cover gasket over and put the rubber olives on the fuel lines in the spring.

The oil pan sump needs to be taken off and the seals all replaced as I noticed a few drops of oil leaking on the floor. I thought it was the main crank seal in the front but it's actually not.

The lights were a pain. Bought stuff on ebay from India and they were junk. They were painted shut and I could not install the bulbs they supplied. I had to basically ruin the paint getting them apart and sand them down. Used etching primer on the bare metal and painted the parts separately. I still haven't reassembled them yet. I got my money back from the bozos in India but the hassle was just not worth it. But my dad wanted black lights. Otherwise I would have bought a better quality already painted red locally.

We still don't have the bonnet all done yet. I'm getting it repainted again as I was not happy with the job. He did a good job knocking out the dents on the old side panels but should have taken a few more hours for prep work before painting.

I'm working on getting the appropriate brackets for the horizontal exhaust and getting an exhaust pipe bent as again the aftermarket Sparex one is junk. It's easier to start over with a new length of pipe. I'm going to use stainless and make a flange. A local muffler shop will do the bends.

IT just seems like so much of this was a pain in the a$$. I doubt I will ever attempt it again.

I will post pics when I get the bonnet on and the exhaust is done.
Click to expand...



This is project I've been working for over a year now, and I'm nowhere near finished (pretty much rebuilding the whole thing). I'm really, really, really, really not looking forward to painting it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeLI5RMfEkI
 
PTfarmer. That's a big beast. That's going to be a big paint bill just for materials. I know from doing mine it's best to disassemble everything and sandblast then epoxy prime otherwise there are areas the spray gun can't get into and you will be left with bare metal areas that will rust within hours.

I would do sections in stages and use an epoxy paint. I can't stand rust and I used stainless bolts where I could unless strength was needed. I used antiseize too except for high torque required bolts.
 
In a couple of weeks I should have it running, and driving (without the sheet metal). Had replace the crankshaft, one connecting (had a spun #1 rod bearing) so now the engine is fresh. Switched it from the 4 speed torque convertor/shuttle shift transmission to a conventional clutch with a 6 x 2 manual transmission with all new bearings, and seals. The brakes are good, new rear axle seals. If it all good when I get it running it will get painted, then I will move to the front end loader, and finally the backhoe.
 
Do the epoxy then do the paint immediate after epoxy, maybe 15 minutes. It is the easiest paint to use, just don't let it set that.
 
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