1450/1650 Interchangeability

Hello all, first time poster, long time observer here. I pulled our old 1650 out of the grass this spring for help with the extra hay we put in this year and after several hundred bales I had a pop then a squeal/whine started instantly. I was coming out of a tight corner turning the wheel fairly quickly to get lined back out and had just gotten the tires straight when it popped. I lost all hydraulics when it happened. I didn't really notice if the PTO had any change as everything got put into neutral as quickly as possible and shut down. I didn't have anything hooked into the hydraulics so I can't test the remotes but there's no steering and no 3pt activity. I'm assuming something sheered or stripped gears in the hydraulics. I had to move the tractor out of the way to hook another machine on and after sitting for several hours there was no change. Goes into gear and runs proper that way although with the engine off I pushed in the clutch by hand and turned the coupler behind the creeper gearbox, it feels rougher like there's a little extra drag. Don't know if that helps but just another possible symptom.

Now that I've described what I'm facing I'll get to the original intent of this post. On Craigslist there's a 1450 in a big "everything goes, make me an offer" type sale and if it runs I thought I'd throw a low ball offer for it if there's parts interchangeability in the hydraulics system. Idler gear, drive gear, hydraulic pump, those sorts of parts. I don't have parts books for either models to cross reference part numbers so I thought I'd come here and see if those who know these Olivers like the back of their hands could help me out on that. I don't know the serial # of the 1450 but my 1650 is 195 536-454. Model number is 365-22093 as well, if that helps. I sure appreciate any input and look forward to learning something new. Thanks.

There is no interchangability.

The 1450 is a Fiat, imported and sold by Oliver. The 1650 is all Oliver.

Sorry.


edit: I'm assuming the pop come from under the seat and it wasn't one of the steering lines?

This post was edited by scootergmc on 06/09/2023 at 11:54 am.

the air in the tires, coolant in the radiator, and fuel are interchangeable. Otherwise they are two different animals.

It's like when I was at an auction one time and there was a Super 55. Two guys were looking it over and one said it
looked awful small for a Super 55, maybe it was a 500. I had to smile and educate him a little about the 500s. But,
if you're not an Oliver guy, you don't know and you have to learn.

I believe it came from around my feet, I was focused on the baler as I was having trouble baling the grass I was in. I actually thought it popped out of gear as that was what it sounded like but then it started squealing/whining immediately after. I tinkered with it this afternoon, pulled the seat off and got the top removed but without draining the oil I couldn't see much. Tomorrow I'll bring a bucket and pull the oil out with an air siphon.

Could somebody please explain the transfer of power to the hydraulic pump. My dad dug out an old 1800-1900 parts manual but I didn't know how close the hydraulics on those models was to the 1650. The housings are different for sure, I noticed the filter location is moved to the LH side towards the back vs the 1650 being up front right between your legs.

Thank you all for the replies.

Chris Losey's videos are very informative. The 1850 is similar and visual references sure work better for me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoP2mn2YG4A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIa-bSE7fkU

With the loud pop I'd say the pump broke but what caused it to break? Dead headed pump? What's your hydraulic fluid level at?

You didn't mention the grinding and squealing in the original post, but did later. I think you stripped the splines
off the long shaft that runs the pump and PTO. I've had it happen on my 1550 and a couple of times on 1850s. You'll
have to take the cast cover off the PTO clutch and pull that long shaft that goes in the hub on the engine flywheel
all the way out. I'm betting the splines are ground off the end.

(quoted from post at 04:46:38 06/10/23) You didn't mention the grinding and squealing in the original post, but did later. I think you stripped the splines
off the long shaft that runs the pump and PTO. I've had it happen on my 1550 and a couple of times on 1850s. You'll
have to take the cast cover off the PTO clutch and pull that long shaft that goes in the hub on the engine flywheel
all the way out. I'm betting the splines are ground off the end.

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The noise was mentioned at the end of the first sentence in my original post but that's neither here nor there.

Those videos were great, sure lowered the fear level of tearing into my 1650. I did fire up the tractor for a brief minute yesterday and checked PTO engagement, it seems to be functioning properly. I don't know if that's an indicator of the long shaft like you mentioned but I figured it would help in diagnosing things. Is the long shaft independent of any gears in the transmission? The video referenced it once but I didn't see where it started.

Thanks again everyone, sounds like I've probably got a project on my hands but my confidence is growing the more I research things.

If the PTO turns at a normal speed and will take a load, it's not the long shaft. That shaft runs through a gear
that runs the pump, and that gear acts like a carrier but that's all. I don't remember if there's a gear on a short
shaft that sits above it to drive the pump or not. The 1850 has it, but I don't remember the 1650 having it.

I'm stumped without being there and seeing what's going on.

(quoted from post at 12:31:21 06/10/23) If the PTO turns at a normal speed and will take a load, it's not the long shaft. That shaft runs through a gear
that runs the pump, and that gear acts like a carrier but that's all. I don't remember if there's a gear on a short
shaft that sits above it to drive the pump or not. The 1850 has it, but I don't remember the 1650 having it.

I'm stumped without being there and seeing what's going on.

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You're referring to the idler gear that transfers power to the driven gear on the pump from the video correct? In my browsing I came across an idler gear on ebay listed for a 1650 that appears to mount on a bracket and stub shaft. Of course without a parts manual I'm just trusting the listing is correct. I already took the baler home so I have no way of putting load to the PTO, I just started the tractor for 45 seconds or so to verify nothing released after cooling off(I'm not that lucky but I always try) and to engage the PTO a couple times. No audible change in sound happened and it appeared to engage to idle speed when locked in and braked properly when taken out.

Is there anything external that should be looked at before pulling the hydraulic unit off? It really seems to be coming from the transmission/front hydraulic assembly but I'd sure hate to get a lesson in hydraulic removal if something else should be looked over first. Also, if I do remove the assembly where's a source for quality, precut gaskets. I don't know when or even if this assembly has ever been apart. The machine has been ran hard, it's an old cannery tractor that looks like it would make a better boat anchor but she runs strong and I only paid a $100 for her, farm put $5-600 on top of that in the engine. Anything to replace it will cost well over anything I've looked at in the hydraulics will cost.

I haven't watched the video, and it's been too long since I had one of those apart, but if it has that idler that
drives the pump like the 1850 has then yes, that could be the problem. It happened to my 1850 once. All that holds
it all together is a cotter pin through the gear and shaft. That pin broke in mine, the shaft slid out and it
trashed the heck out of things. There's a needle bearing in the casting at each end of the shaft. It took those out
and wallowed the casting at an angle.

I was able to weld washers in the casting and get the bearings driven in with about half the surface in the casting
still being good. I hope for the best, but there's a chance the whole transmission housing is trashed. If it is
good, those gaskets are available from your AGCO dealer.

There is one other possibility, but doubtful from the symptoms, The pump cracked in my 1850 one time. I was cutting hay, raised the haybine at the end of the field and when I went to lower it, it wouldn't go down. I had steering and the hydraulics worked a little as long as it was running full throttle, but it took those high RPMs to make enough pressure for anything to work at all. That didn't make any noise though.

Parts manuals are online on the agco website. Search by model:

https://parts.agcocorp.com/en_US/apbsearch/model

More video re: PTO long shaft, specific to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9mlO7GJ3BM

More video re: PTO long shaft not specific but will give you more an idea of how things work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB4BLiHo9O8

In the second video, at about two minutes thirty seconds in, that gear turning is the one that the shaft slid out
of in my 1850 and wreaked havoc.

Did you pull the long PTO shaft out yet to look at it? I had the same noise that you describe on my Cockshutt. Turned out to be the hub on the fly wheel that the long PTO shaft goes into. Shaft was still good, but the Hub was cleaned out. The noise must echo back thru the rear.

(quoted from post at 07:46:08 06/11/23)
Did you pull the long PTO shaft out yet to look at it? I had the same noise that you describe on my Cockshutt. Turned out to be the hub on the fly wheel that the long PTO shaft goes into. Shaft was still good, but the Hub was cleaned out. The noise must echo back thru the rear.

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I haven't gotten the tractor home yet to start on it. When yours did that was there a simple way to check it or did you just pull the shaft to check it off the list of possibilities. Also, did yours pop when it happened?

This post was edited by nefletcher on 06/11/2023 at 08:01 am.

Is it still grinding and squealing loud enough to wake the dead? Like I said, I've stripped those in my 1550 and
about three times in 1850s. The noise doesn't stop, it just keeps on sounding like the end of the world.

(quoted from post at 08:48:04 06/11/23) Is it still grinding and squealing loud enough to wake the dead? Like I said, I've stripped those in my 1550 and
about three times in 1850s. The noise doesn't stop, it just keeps on sounding like the end of the world.

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Yes sir, got it to the shop this evening with no changes to any of the symptoms. No hydraulics, steering or 3pt, screech/grind still there. I've got to spray early tomorrow and didn't have the motivation to start opening things up though. Sometime tomorrow afternoon I'll start blowing the grime off and see what sort of mess I'm looking at. I'll update this as I get into things. Thanks again.

Maybe I missed it, but what's your hydraulic fluid level?

(quoted from post at 21:59:42 06/11/23)

Maybe I missed it, but what's your hydraulic fluid level?

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About a 1/4" above the full mark, been holding steady there. It gets checked along with engine oil and coolant anytime the tractor gets started cold.

Yes. I heard the pop. I thought I broke something in the rear end.
Then the next day it didn't make any noise until after a few minutes. Then it made a big squeal and vibration again. I found a little Debre on the splines of the shaft when I pulled it out.

This post was edited by J.Wondergem on 06/13/2023 at 06:07 am.