2-105 Hydraulic Question

MinniMan

Member
As mentioned I have the tractor running engine and over/under wise and all seems to be ok.

However there was a leak from the right brake at the drain hole in the bottom of the housing. I expected to have to replace the O-Rings even though I had done it before and thought something had not sealed properly. However when I took the brake assembly off completely and sprayed it out with brake cleaner I noted that the seal was leaking around the shaft the brake disks are splined to. Hmmm not so easy a fix.

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Arrow points to the leaking seal

Also for some reason the hydraulic oil keeps dropping in the tank. I decided to check the transmission oil level by removing the upper plug. Oil shot out of this when I loosened it. It appeared thin like hydraulic oil and not 90W as I understand is supposed to be used in the transmission. I guessing this is where the hydraulic oil is going.

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Arrow points to the plug I removed to check the oil level in the transmission

Now the question. How can it get into the transmission? By the hydraulic pump if a seal is leaking or can it get from the reservoir which holds the hydraulic oil?

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Also since the oil level appears to be too high if it is supposed to be higher at this upper plug level will it still require a seal change once I drain it and find and repair the leak? If so what is the best way to replace this seal?
 
Most likely the hydraulic leak is in the PTO unit. Your first picture does not look quite right to me, but rig yourself upa puller with a sheet metal screw and a slide hammer to pull that seal. More questions?
 
Hi John

So you suspect the hydraulic leak is in the PTO area? I'll check the Ago parts book to review the assembly etc. Also the manual for the overhaul procedure.

Not sure what doesn't look right about the brake housing pic John but I crawled under the tractor an snapped one with my cell. I placed an arrow on the picture to pin point the oil seeping from the seal and running down the side of the brake housing.

I thought that it didn't look like an easy job to pull the seal. Is there any danger of driving that seal further in if a person were to drill or punch a hole for some self tapping screws to go into the seal and then be attached to a puller with a slide hammer?
 
Just thought of another question.

If I were to disconnect the hydraulic lines to the PTO valve and couple them together would that stop the hydraulic oil from leaking into the transmission if it is through the PTO piston seals?

Might be a way to check for PTO oil leakage before removing and overhauling the PTO? If the oil level remained constant in the hydraulic tank then the PTO would be at fault. If it dropped then it must be somewhere else.

It appears that it is a considerable task to remove, disassemble and reseal the PTO assembly if it isn't the problem. Also noted that a special tool is required to compress the clutch unit spring for disassembly and reassembly. Any suggestions on how this can be fabricated other than what is outlined in the repair manual?

Just a few thoughts???

The PTO starts and stops when you move the lever for the control valve, but I haven't tried using it on any equipment to see if it is slipping. It doesn't turn when not in use and the engine is running.
 
Like J. said most of the time it is the PTO that is leaking. Yes disconnect the two lines going to the valve and plug them. One is just a return to the reservoir the other is a pressure line with 200 to 400 psi. It is also possible that the seal in the trans lube pump is leaking. If plugging the PTO doesn't stop the oil transfer that is the next thing to check. That pump is located to the inside of the main hyd. pump there is no way to check it other then removing it and replacing the seal and O-rings. Yes you should still replace the Bull pinion seals. Pull them out like J. said. They can be a pain to get back in since the outside of the seal and the seal lip make contact at the same time. Be very careful that you do not roll the seal lip as it is going past the edge of the bull pinion. Once you have every thing fixed put in new 80w90 and a new rearend filter.
 
Thank you 2-stroke

Will check the the PTO leaking by disconnecting the PTO valve lines first. Hopefully that identifies the issue.

Curious about how the trans lube pump would be at fault. Does it circulate the hydraulic oil or only the transmission oil to the cooler? I checked the Agco parts page for trans lube pump and it didn't show any seals or O-Rings in the picture or parts listing.

How is it connected to the hydraulic system so that a leaking seal would permit it to pass hydraulic oil into the transmission?

Also wondered if anyone has is a change up number for the bull pinion seals from the one listed on the Agco page. I have a local bearing and seal supplier but they can't change up a part number for a replacement seal. Only try to match up with the old seal and my dealer is a 3 hour drive away.

The seal listed on Agco is:

107621A Oil Seal - Differential Bearing (Alternate 30-3302466) (S/N 255216 Thru 283497)

My tractor is in the 250000 to 280000 serial number range.

Sorry for so many questions but just want to clarify and eliminate items which are not causing the problem before needless disassembly.

I appreciate all comments and suggestions. Thank you
 
I am sorry I misspoke on my earlier post. The pump I was referring to is the hyd. oil cooler pump. This pump is built into the drive gear housing for the main hyd. pump. You remove the hyd. pump then the four bolts that hold it in the rearend housing. After removing a couple of lines it will pullout. This pump replaces the little cooler pump that was belt driven on the Oliver tractors.
 
Thanks 2-stroke.

Now it makes sense to me that Hydraulic oil could be by-passing the hydraulic oil cooler circulating pump and dumping into the transmission.

I will follow through on the suggestions in the next day or two when I have some free time. Once I have isolated the problem, and hoping it is not both the PTO and pump leaking I will report back.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. Thank you
 
I drained the oil level down to the top plug on the rear of the PTO housing first. I got 2 1/2 five gallon pails of oil out before it quite running so obviously it has been leaking and someone has been adding hydraulic oil to the reservoir. Then I removed the two hydraulic lines from the PTO control valve and coupled them together with a piece of hose and clamps.

I filled the hydraulic reservoir to the full mark and started the engine and let it run for about an hour. The hydraulics were warmed up and the oil level didn't appear to drop any. So I am assuming that John is right and the leak is in the PTO unit.

I went through the Agco book and ordered the reseal kit along with other seals and O-Rings that were not included in the kit to reseal the unite.

Correct me if I am wrong but the most likely area of a leak would be the piston seals? I do plan to replace all the O-Rings I could find listed in the diagram and the seals. So hopefully this will solve the leakage problem. It will be well into next week before the parts arrive but they are ordered.

Is there anything specific I should be watching for when overhauling the unite? I have it ready to lift out from the rear of the main frame but will wait until I have a hand as it appears it could be a heavy lift.

I understand a special tool is required to compress the clutch spring to disassemble and reassembly the PTO. Any comments or suggestions on this?

Thanks for any advice given.
 
Regarding my PTO project.

I have the PTO out of the rear main frame and found a piece of friction plate laying in the bottom of the differential housing. I don't see how the engagement clutches could end up there. So now I know I need a bit more than just to reseal the unit.

Looking into the rear end of the main frame I noted a small chain way in the back which runs on a sprocket. As near as I can tell it may drive the oil cooler or transmission lube pump. Correct me if I am wrong on this as it isn't too clear in the parts book or manual. The chain appeared very slack and the teeth on the drive sprocket (I can't see the driven sprocket) appeared to be worn away quite badly.

What all is involved in replacing the chain and drive/driven sprockets? The rest of the gears in the back end looked good and few filings were on the oil plug or laying in the differential housing.

As always thanks for your comments and replies.
 
The friction material you see is more than likely part of the PTO brake disc. The early units had a two piece brake the friction disc and the pressure plate. The new brake will have the friction disc bonded to the pressure plate. It is not uncommon to find that plate broken. When it breaks and falls out it allows the brake piston to extend to far and leak oil. You can replace the brake and clutch disc without completely disassembling the whole unit but if I was you I would take it completely apart and reseal everything. Be sure to replace the seal and washer and plunger inside the driven gear assembly. Those pieces are in there to prevent you from putting the 540 shaft in when it is shifted in the 1000 range. Be very careful when you put the gear train back in the housing it is very easy to roll the lip seals.The special tool for compressing the spring on the input hub is nice to have but it can be done without it. You just have to find a way to compress that spring to remove the snap ring. The chain driven pump you see is the trans lube pump. If it quits you will seize the low gear to the top shaft and that's an expensive and time consuming repair. If your tractor does not have it you can put a lube pressure warning light on it that way you will know if it quits. To replace that chain and sprocket you will have to remove the hyd. housing from the rear end of the tractor. Once you do that you will see how to get it apart. If it is that bad you better replace it.
 
(quoted from post at 10:47:59 08/06/17) The friction material you see is more than likely part of the PTO brake disc. The early units had a two piece brake the friction disc and the pressure plate. The new brake will have the friction disc bonded to the pressure plate. It is not uncommon to find that plate broken. When it breaks and falls out it allows the brake piston to extend to far and leak oil. You can replace the brake and clutch disc without completely disassembling the whole unit but if I was you I would take it completely apart and reseal everything. Be sure to replace the seal and washer and plunger inside the driven gear assembly. Those pieces are in there to prevent you from putting the 540 shaft in when it is shifted in the 1000 range. Be very careful when you put the gear train back in the housing it is very easy to roll the lip seals.The special tool for compressing the spring on the input hub is nice to have but it can be done without it. You just have to find a way to compress that spring to remove the snap ring. The chain driven pump you see is the trans lube pump. If it quits you will seize the low gear to the top shaft and that's an expensive and time consuming repair. If your tractor does not have it you can put a lube pressure warning light on it that way you will know if it quits. To replace that chain and sprocket you will have to remove the hyd. housing from the rear end of the tractor. Once you do that you will see how to get it apart. If it is that bad you better replace it.

Fantastic response to my questions and concerns 2-stroke.

I had a look at the tool to compress the spring and thought it looked too complex to manufacture and would require two people to compress the spring and remove the snap ring. So I made up a sleeve from a piece of pipe with two holes drilled into the thick wall pipe. I pressed and then welded two pieces of 3/8 inch rod into the pipe sleeve. It is just big enough to slip over a 1/2 inch piece of threaded ready rod. With a large washer on the one end and jam nuts I passed the rod through the PTO unit and then slide the pipe sleeve with the two tabs onto the ready rod and compressed the spring using a nut and washer on the top end of the ready rod. Simple to make and safe for one person to use.

Pictures of the simple device I made

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Piece of pipe 3/4 X 6" with two 2" metal rods attached

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Passed the 36" ready rod through the PTO assembly with a heavy washer on the back end and double nuts

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Tightened the nut to compress the spring and remove the snap ring.

I continued to disassemble the PTO unit. The brake disk you mentioned and which had pieces laying in the differential housing was missing from where is was supposed to be. The rivets in the back of the clutch housing were worn away as well.

I will have to check with the parts department to see if the disk and rivets are still available or if there has been a change up and I have to replace the reaction plate with bonded material. Not sure if that will work with the old clutch housing with rivet holes or if it has to be changed to the newer style also.

I removed the clutch disks and separator plates. They measured within spec although the disks did not appear to be the same. Clutch disks were 0.062 to 0.082. Some measured thicker than the manual calls for at 0.060 to 0.075. Made me wonder if some had been replaced at some point. Not sure if I should replace them all with new ones or not as they are not cheap ($57 ea). Will keep disassembling to see how the rest looks before I make that decision.

I will exercise caution when resembling not to damage the seals as I understand what you mean by rolling the seal lip back and it won't seal.

I am concerned after reading your comments about the transmission lube pump 2-stroke. Near as I can tell from looking into the differential housing the teeth on the small sprocket look almost worn away and the tiny chain has a lot of slack in it. My tractor does have the transmission light although I am not sure it is working as it should light when the ignition key is turned on and remain lite until the engine starts and the pump builds pressure so I expect it isn't operational at present.

To take the hydraulic housing off and the plate on top of the differential housing it looks like the cab will have to be lifted a fair bit if not removed to be able to access the sprockets and chain assembly. Another big job!

Thank you again for the detailed information 2-strok it is very much appreciated and may also prove helpful to others.
 
Just an update.

I managed to get a couple of pics of the drive chain and sprockets for the transmission lube pump. Looking closer at the pics the sprockets don't look as bad as I thought. It was hard to tell by the naked eye from outside of the rear end of the tractor.

The chain isn't tight and looked kind of loose though. How tight are they supposed to be?

Sorry for the sideways view but I was holding my phone at full arms length to try to get a close up and couldn't turn it sideways to get the pics at the angle they should be
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From the pictures the chain does look loose but even when they are new they are not very tight. I would definitely make sure the warning light works and remember to change the trans.lube filter on the left side of the rearend housing.
 
Thank you 2-stroke

I will make certain the warning light is functional and I have a new oil filter on hand for the transmission lubrication system. Just haven't installed it until I have the PTO overhaul completed and refilled with 80-90 transmission oil. I will also make sure to drain all the trans compartments of oil.

Thank you for your advice.
 
I was looking at the PTO clutch housing closely and noted that it appears to have a brake plate attached to it with 6 rivets. The plate has worn down to the point the rivet heads are also wearing from rubbing against the reaction brake plate. The friction disk of course was broken and laying in the bottom of the differential.

I note in the Agco parts book it lists these rivets and brake plate for the earlier version of the 2-105. If these parts are still available does someone have some advice on removing and replacing the disk and rivets so they will be tight? Also what keeps the friction disk in alignment with the reaction plate and clutch housing? The actuator?

I noticed in the Agco parts book for the newer 105's SN 290000 and up, is a bonded friction disk and it would appear a different clutch housing minus the rivet holes.

My clutch housing showing the rivets holding the brake plate and how it is worn down to the rivet heads.

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Reaction plate with a piece of the brake friction disk laying on top. This plate has scoring from the rivets but could probably be cleaned up in the lathe.

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Thanks for any comments
 
Well gosh darn! I ordered all the parts I figured I would need to rebuild the PTO. New seals, O-rings, quad-seals, clutch disks, brake friction disk, rivets and brake plate. They finally arrived and so I went for a 3 hour drive to pick them up.

When I got home and went to the shop the first order of business was to fit the brake plate to the clutch housing. It is held on with 6 rivets. I had removed the old plate from the housing and found at some point in time the rivets must have sheared off as it had actually been spinning against the clutch housing and the rivet holes were worn a bit oval on one or two of them. But not too much damage to the clutch housing rivet holes or the housing itself.

When I placed the new brake plate on the housing and was going to fit the rivets into the holes I found that 3 of the 6 counter sunk holes didn't line up with the ones in the clutch housing. They had been drilled closer together on the new brake plate than on the old one.

I called the parts person and she was as surprised as I was. She checked and it is the only brake plate available and is supposed to fit my serial numbered tractor. So she asked me to send her a picture, which I did and she was going to contact the company to see if they had a different plate or what the problem was. So I guess it will be another week or so before I find out the cause of this.

Also the reaction disk has the brake friction disk bonded to it rather than the friction disk being separate like the old one. However it looks like it should fit ok.

Just wondered has anyone else ran into this problem? Is there a change up which isn't listed in the parts book or the dealer computer? Maybe the plate which fits my tractor is no longer available?

Here is a picture to illustrate what I am describing. (New brake plate on bottom - old one on top in pic) Note one of the pair of holes lines up but the second hole is much closer on the new plate compared to the old plate. It is the same for the other two sets of holes around the brake plate.

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Any comments or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
 
I have replaced all the seals and O-Rings in the PTO unite. In particular the seal around the pinion was totally cooked and hard. It would spin on the shaft so obviously it wasn't sealing the brake piston.

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Over heated seal on pinion shaft.

The original clutch housing had the brake plate riveted to it with 6 rivets. When I disassembled the unite it was still riveted to the housing but when I removed it the damage was obvious. At some point the rivets had let go and it spun on the clutch housing but had been re-riveted.

As shown previously the new brake plate I ordered would not fit due to the holes being in the wrong place. I haven't had an explanation from Agco as to why this would be.

After speaking with a retired White mechanic, he indicated that the only way to assure the rebuild would be successful was to replace the clutch housing with the new updated one. Also a new reaction plate and bonded friction disk. He said the PTO brake piston can only move a little before the quad rings will move past the bore in the inner PTO support and they will leak hydraulic oil. So I replaced the clutch housing and reaction disk with the bonded friction disk and returned the brake plate and rivets.

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Old clutch housing showing damage by the brake plate spinning on the housing.

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New updated clutch housing which doesn't require the brake plate.

He also suggested that when shutting the PTO off with a machine still turning such as mix mill, tub grinder or bale shredder and applying the PTO brake, it could damage to the PTO brake. So better to not apply the brake right away. He said some owners put a bolt in the slot the PTO control lever moves in to prevent it from applying the brake.

My concern however is this could pose a danger by having the PTO turning on the tractor all the time. So perhaps not the safest way to modify the unite.

Hopefully this information and pics will be helpful to others who encounter similar problems.

Thank you to those who shared their valuable advice. It is always appreciated.
 

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