1975 White 2-105 pulling sleeves help

MinniMan

Member
I built this sleeve puller and have tightened the nut as tight as possible with the 1 1/2 inch wrench and pounded on the end of the puller rod but the sleeve won't move.

I'm using a 1 inch course thread puller rod.

Puller frame
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Puller rod and puck
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I reversed the puck just to make certain it was not binding on the cylinder wall which it isn't. That's why you can see the grove in the picture, which fits into the sleeve.

What is my next option? I don't want to damage the block!
 
This is total hearsay, never actually tried
this myself. Thought someone here said to
run beads of weld on the inside of the
sleeves to shrink them down some to make
removal easier.
 
Well you have the right idea, BUT I don't think you can apply enough force with a course threaded rod. I pulled a set one time out of a 354 with an OTC manual pulley. That was about a 1 inch fine threaded rod and I had a handle about 3 feet long to make them move. Send me an e-mail. J.
 
Kevin, I also have read about running a bead down the inside of the sleeve to help contract the sleeve. This sounds like a scary job to me as I would be terrified I might weld the sleeve to the block. Maybe if you moved the welding rod quickly but???

I also read about packing the sleeve with dry ice with the puller installed and under pressure to shrink the sleeve. What affect would dry ice have on the strength of the puller rod?

I have read and watched a utube video about chipping the top of the sleeve and using an acetylene torch to soften the sleeve while tapping a small screw driver between the sleeve and block to peel a section of the sleeve. My concern would be damaging the lands at the top of the block for the recess of the new sleeve.

John I sent you a personal email as you asked me to. I can try getting a one inch fine thread rod and nuts if you think it will help. What about the pressure on the block though? My pictures show my puller's base is spread over a fairly large area at the outter edges of the block. I tried using wood between the puller and the block but it crushed the wood.

Thanks guys please keep the suggestions coming they are appreciated.
 
When you get the fine thread rod get grade 8 nuts and hardened washers. Use grease on the threads faces of the washers and nut. They tend to gall under those loads.
 
Be careful with dry ice as it can cause severe damage to unprotected hands and skin.
I have used dry ice contained in a cloth bag dropped into the sleeve alongside the threaded rod. Two or three minutes after dropping in the dry ice bag, the sleeve popped up 3/8 inch, and we pulled it the rest of the way w/o problems.
 
Thank you for the suggestions and comments.

I will go to town tomorrow and get a length of fine threaded rod and grade 8 nuts if they have them.

I will also try to track down some dry ice and give the sleeve a treatment with the puller attached and torqued down good and tight as it is now.

I will reserve the welder treatment as a last resort if nothing else works I guess.

I have been thinking when it comes time to install the new sleeves icing them before trying to install them would be the proper way to go and then hopefully lightly tap them in with a block of wood. I would clean up the bores first.

What would be advised to use as a lubricant for installation? I think I read somewhere brake cleaner to simply clean the bores was suggested. I suppose you want to make metal to metal contact for heat dissipation purposes and don't want an oily lube between the liner and cylinder wall?

I hope if this liner removal is successful this thread may be helpful to someone else attempting the same task.

Thank you everyone for your help.
 
I'd be real afraid of getting splatter on the crank no matter how hard I tried to prevent it.
 
I found a drift and abig hammer and went under the tractor and had some one on top with a wrench. They came out ok but hard.
 
Update on sleeve pulling.

It is not for the faint of heart or someone with little patience!

I went to town and picked up a length of 1 inch fine thread grade 8 rod and nuts. Not cheap as I suspected the gold plating indicated.

Then I got a bag of dry ice. I replaced the course threat rod with the fine thread and got everything lined up in place. I packed the sleeve with dry ice and left it for a few minutes then tried the wrench on the nut. Nothing moved! I hit the end of the rod a few good whacks with a heavy hammer and still nothing. After trying this for a while I decided that maybe the block was cooling with the dry ice along with the sleeve. So using the heating torch I was able to warm the block for cylinder number 1 through the opening where the water pump circulates the water. After hitting it again a few times LOW it moved a tiny bit.

I hit and turned the nut for a good half an hour and had it out about 3 inches. Not willing to be beaten I switched things around and used a 4 foot swing bar on a socket. It's now out about 7 inches and still as tight as ever. But with the long handled swing bar I can at least wrench it out a faction at a time.

The sleeve looks kind of rusty in spots, not sure if this is a good sign but it is coming out SLOWLY. Hate to think there are 5 more to do.

I'm not sure if the dry ice really helped a whole lot but I do think heating the block did. The problem being, I don't see anyway to heat the rest of the cylinders. So guess I will see what happens when I get to them.

I thought maybe the puller was overbuilt with 3/4 inch material and 6 inch channel iron for legs with a 1 inch puller rod. But it isn't. Anything less would have collapsed.

I can't imagine trying to pull these sleeves with the block in the tractor.

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I hope these pics will help someone else if they decide to pull the sleeves on a 2-105 white Perkins 354T. Maybe take it to a shop???
 
The weld bead(s) trick is the usual, unless you have access to a hydraulic press. Fitting new ones will need a press, I would think. There would be no chance of welding slag or
spatter getting on the crank if a plug (like the current 'press')' was employed? No need to weld anywhere near through the liner - the contraction of the weld, on cooling, will shrink
the liner.
 
My dad told used to tell 2hen he worked at for CD dealer they would use a co2 fire extinguisher to rapidly
cool the sleeves. It took 2 guys one would hold a heavy rag on the bottom the other would shoot the
cylinder full then while wearing a leather glove reach in and make a fist and jerk those tin can sleeves
out. Also made us swear we would never buy on of those infernal 8n or 9ns. Don't know if this will help or
not. I do know that welding a bead inside a bearing race will shrink it enough to just drop out. Did this
on countless round baler rollers
 
The main difference I see between your homemade puller and mine is you need a thrust type ball bearing under your nut. It would make more difference than you could believe.
 
Slow progress pulling sleeves but they are coming out.

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bore after sleeve was removed.

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cleaned up bore

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I have found that the only way to pull these sleeves that works is to have my son pound the end of the puller rod while I tighten the puller nut with a wrench or impact. But they are stubborn right to the last 1/2 inch.

I have tried dry ice with limited success. Hopefully it will work better for installation

I also tried running 5 or 6 beads inside the sleeve after a practise run on one that was removed. It did help but was still mighty tight.

As for the new ones going in I left one in the freezer over night but it would only slip in past the bevel lip on the bottom before it tightened up.

I suspect that it will require a press to push them back in and careful measurement to keep the 0.030 - 0.035 protrusion of the sleeve firewall above the block. I measured the difference between the cylinder bore and outer sleeve diameter and it indicated the sleeve is 0.002 larger than the bore which is the same as the old ones that came out.

Just wondering would using the puck I used to pull them out be ok to push them back in without damaging the fire stop of the new sleeves? Also what size press would be needed? For example would a 20 tonne press be heavy enough? What would be recommended for lube before installing the sleeves? Would it be ok to lightly hone the cylinder walls before sleeve installation?

Thank you for all advice and suggestions
 
Finally got all six sleeves out!

The crankcase after it had the sleeves all removed and has been cleaned of all welding and cleaning debris.

40487.jpg


I had to use the welding technique on the last two sleeves as they were extremely tight. I found that if you keep the amperage low just enough to run a bead with a 6013 rod there isn't too much danger of burning through the sleeve. As mentioned I practiced on one I had already removed to test for this first. Note that the puck has to slip inside of the sleeve at the bottom so don't weld right to the bottom of the sleeve or you will have to grind the welding away so it will fit in. I learned this the hard way.

I did find that you end up with slag and bits and pieces of the welding process everywhere in the crankcase. Also if using sand paper to clean the bores it leaves lots of grit. Since I had to grind away some of the welding it also left metal shavings inside of the crankcase.

All this posed a real problem to clean out. So I moved the block to where I could use hot water and a pressure washer to thoroughly clean the interior of the block then quickly dried it with compressed air and wiped it down with a silicon lubricant to prevent rust forming. Not sure if this was the best idea but that debris had to come out of the block before reassembly started. Make sure to completely blow the water out of every stud bolt hole too with compressed air.

The next step will be inserting the new sleeves. I have a 20 ton hydraulic press in the shop so will try that first. I am hoping that will work ok. If not then I will try dry ice and warming the crankcase with a kerosene heater.

I am leaning towards lubricating the bores with silicon spray lubricant to ease reassembly. But if others have better suggestions or advice please comment. The only concern I have with this is, will it affect the conductivity of heat between the sleeves and cylinder walls?

Hopefully this thread will be helpful to someone else replacing sleeves in a dry sleeved engine.

Thank you for all previous comments and I look forward to hearing more.
 
Before you put them in, measure the bores and the sleeve O.D. Do you have a rigid hone or can borrow one. You want about 0.0015 to 0.0002 interference fit?
 
Thanks for the tip.

Guess I best either invest in an internal and external micrometer and maybe a Ridgid hone or visit a machine shop.
 
Update on Sleeve installation

Just in case anyone else happens to be replacing sleeves I thought an update might be helpful. I know I would have been thrilled to have read this information along with pictures.

I tried the setup first using an old sleeve to make sure I had clearance with the press, puck and pusher rod. I had to do the installation in two steps by adjusting the nuts on the 1 inch pusher rod to bottom the sleeve. Also to make sure I could level the block with the anvil of the press so the sleeves would go in straight, I used a small square to align the sleeve with the crankcase block on both sides moving it so it was vertical by gently tapping the sleeve with a rubber hammer. Before installation I compared the OD measurements of the old sleeves and the new ones and they were the same diameter.

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Once I was satisfied everything looked straight I used the press to install the new sleeve. They were a firm push but not overly tight. The puck I had made worked perfectly to push the sleeve in without damaging the firewall protrusion.

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I raised the block using the engine hoist just enough so I could slid the press forward to install the next sleeve. I installed #1 #3 #5 and then the even number sleeves. I also measured the firewall height above the block after each sleeve was installed to make sure they were all the same height. Don't over push the sleeves once they bottom in the recess in the block. It would be possible to break the flange at the top of the sleeve and you would have to get another sleeve and repeat the installation for the damaged one. I was careful about this and all went well.

Engine lift to raise the block.

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A sleeve almost installed. Note the sleeve flange as it entered the recessed portion of the crankcase. Just as it was about to enter the recess I stopped and even though I had cleaned and polished this recess I gave it a final blow out with compressed air to make sure nothing had dropped in that would prevent the sleeve from bottoming in the recess.

40791.jpg


With the cylinder bores cleaned very well and lubricated a 20 ton press easily pushed the new sleeves into place.

Next I removed the camshaft and tappets, cleaned them and checked the lobs and tappets for signs of wear or breaking down of the hardened surfaces. All appeared serviceable including the cam bearings so I reassembled the tappets in their respective bores as well the cam shaft. Be careful when pulling or installing the camshaft not to damage the cam bearings with the sharp edges of the lobes.

I used assembly lube on the tappets and cam bearings to provide lubrication upon engine start up. I also used the same lube on the main bearings and torqued them to spec. I did the torque in a step process rather than to the final torque and alternated each main bearing bolt. I did the rear, center and front mains then worked back and forth on the intermediate mains to evenly torque the crankshaft. Once done it turned freely but the assembly lube being thick does make it a little stickier than when it was original with just normal engine oil.

I didn't platiguage the main bearings as the crank was standard size as are the new bearings. Maybe are error! I HOPE not but the crank seems to turn smoothly.

I had new connecting rod bushings installed at a machine shop to fit the new wrist pins as the bushing require reaming to very close tolerances. There was some wear in the old bushings so best to replace them.

Next step will be to fit the pistons to the rods taking care to install the snap rings completely into the groves in the pistons and of course lube the wristpin bushing as they are assembled. Then to fit the rings into the sleeve bores to check for end clearance and stall them on the pistons.

Sorry some of the pictures are sideways but I don't always remember to turn my cell sideways to take a picture so it turns out the right way on the pc.

Hopefully this setup and information will be helpful to someone else sometime.

Thank you to everyone who messaged me and for the advice and suggestions. I appreciate it very much. In future I will need more I am sure. I hope you find this thread interesting on this rebuild I am happy to continue it with pictures if it can help someone else.
 

Thanks for your comment J Wondergem. If you or anyone else ever have to do this I hope you find this thread helpful.

I have changed dry sleeves before on a Hercules in my 2-135 and they were much easier to get out and put in than on the Perkins in the 2-105. I think next time I would try using a press with the crankcase inverted and a pusher rod and puck. I really don't like welding the sleeves as it makes a mess to clean up inside the crankcase with splatter. But welding does help loosen the sleeve, just be careful to keep the amperage low and use a soft rod. Don't weld right to the bottom end of the sleeve or the puck won't fit inside the sleeve and you will have to grind away the welding. Not fun!

Installing a new rear oil seal on my 2-105

Seal retainer, original seal and filler block behind with two long bolts showing.

40820.jpg


Pay close attention to the aluminum filler block (pictured with the two bolts showing) to make sure it is flush with the bottom of the crankcase so when the oil pan goes back on it will seal properly. Mine appeared fine as it was but you could shim it up to raise it flush with the crankcase using paper shims if needed. It's also important to make sure the little rubber seals on the ends of the filler block seal properly. I used a good grade of gasket maker in the cavities and all around the metal contact area of the filler block. Then inserted the rubber blocks. For some reason the new lower gasket set didn't include these little blocks. Lucky I saved the old ones which still seemed pliable. I tightened the two Philips screws with a screwdriver and then used an impact screwdriver to get then snug.


When I had the crankshaft out I noticed there were signs of wear (this is a 4800 hour engine) at the contact point of the rear oil seal. Although no oil was dripping from the clutch housing when the tractor was running there was some oil inside the housing which meant it was likely seeping past the old seal. The manual stated you could press a new seal 1/8 - 1/4 inch further into the seal housing so it would contact on an unused portion of the crankshaft hub.

Note the wear mark on the crankshaft hub where the original oil seal contacted it.

40819.jpg


The old seal was flush with the exposed side of the seal retainer so I pressed the new seal in 1/4 inch further. Only issue I found was to keep the new seal an equal depth in the retainer. I used a digital caliper to double check to make sure it was even all the way around. To check the seal contact area after installation I smeared a little grease in several places around the hub and then slipped the retainer and seal on the crankshaft hub. When I removed it I could see exactly where the seal was contacting the new area on the hub.

When I installed the seal and retainer, I used gasket sealer on both sides of the new gasket between the retained and cylinder block. I tightened the bolts alternating from side to side until they were all tight. The top two bolts you need to use an allan wrench to tighten.

This should make the rear crankshaft oil seal assembly leak proof, I hope.

Comments and suggestions are always appreciated.
 
if you just run the beads of weld down the sleeve they will pop right out I've done this my self it works great and take an old welding coat and put over the crank should be just fine. When you go to put your sleeve back in take a space heater to the block and warm it up as long as you can then have your sleeves in dry ice or in a deep freezer they will fall right in. When you get the sleeve in put weight on in to make sure it stays down while it warms up
 
Hi 2150man

You are right that welding the sleeves does loosen them although in my experience they were still a hard pull but nothing like they were without welding them. I had the crank out so it wasn't a problem with welding splatter damaging the journals. But it did leave junk in the crankcase.

As to putting the new ones in with the press shown in the above pics it worked like a charm. They went in nice and smooth and were a perfect fit. No need to weight them down once installed. But perhaps on a different engine that would be necessary.

I will get more pictures of the progress I have made installing the pistons and rings. I checked the gap clearance on each ring and although they varied from ring to ring they were still within spec.

Thanks for you suggestions. I am sure it will help someone else doing a similar dry sleeve replacement.
 

Progress update

Have been busy with other fall jobs so only a little progress and now the weather is getting colder which doesn't help either.

The flywheel has been resurfaced and the broken cap screw removed.

41596.jpg



The exhaust manifold had four studs, that mount the turbo charger. These studs had badly damaged threads so I wanted to replace them with new ones. Fortunately I was able to heat the manifold with a torch and using the stud extractor get all four out.


41597.jpg


I ran a 3/8 inch FT tap in all the holes in the manifold for both the turbo and the mounting bracket for the exhaust pipe. I cleaned up the mounting surfaces on the manifold to the cylinder head so they would seal better.

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I will also clean up the mounting surface for the turbo as well. It has some roughness and groves where the steel gaskets have embedded into the manifold. Otherwise it looks ok, no sign of cracks.

41598.jpg
 
Progress update

Slowly it's coming together.

Head on and torqued and valve train installed. I found it necessary to remove the engine side cover panels to make sure the push rods were seated in the tappets properly. Also important to use a new rubber grommet on the rocker arm lubrication tube which pushes into the open oil gallery in the head. It's the brass fitting with short pipe between cylinders 1 and 2 on the right side of the picture between the rocker arms. Then set the valve clearances.

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Valve cover temporarily in position.
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Still more parts to install, fuel pump, oil filter base and intake and exhaust manifolds. I am waiting for the water pump kit so I can rebuild it with new seals and bearings and four new studs that mount the turbo on the exhaust manifold.
 
Update TIP: Be careful removing the exhaust studs and manifold!

If you have to replace the exhaust manifold studs they are no longer available from the dealer or Perkins. Apparently the exhaust manifold for the early engines isn't available either. Not sure about some of the later ones.

Fortunately my manifold is still good but I would like to replace the 7 rusted and corroded studs. Only ones I have found as replacements so far are with fine thread on one end and course on the other and will have to be shortened.

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Rusty and corroded studs

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Progress on engine assembly.

If anyone knows of a source for these 3/8 studs please add a post.
 
6-354T Perkins Engine Progress Update

I haven't progressed too much further with the engine since colder weather has come. Rather I have completed overhauling the Over/Under Drive and have it filled with oil ready to go. Now they are predicting up to 10 inches of snow and -20C temps and blizzard conditions .

Today, Dec 4 sounding like our last half decent day, I decided that since the engine will probably sit in the unheated shop till spring I should try to make sure it is well lubricated. I used assembly oil when putting it together but still was a little concerned if it has to over winter without proper oil in the system.

I filled the crankcase with oil and attached the starter and hooked up a battery. It cranked over very easily as I haven't installed the injectors. I just plugged the openings. After several tries at cranking, oil began showing up at the rocker arms so I feel confident it will have some lubrication throughout most of the engine.

Hopefully we will get a warm spell around Christmas break when I am off work for a couple weeks and can attach the Over/Under drive and slip the engine back into the tractor frame but who knows. Warm weather is not too likely in this part of the country. My goal is to have the 2-105 purring ready for haying season next summer.

In the mean time if I don't have any more updates on my engine project, Seasons Greetings to everyone and all the Best for the New Year. I hope some of you have found this post, although very long, helpful in some way if you have similar engine issues.
 

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