New to forum, New 8N owner, Oil pressure gauge inoperative

Throggy · Jan 19, 2017

I just recently bought a 1950 Ford 8N. It was not running at time of purchase, although previous owner swore it would run. (I tried many attempts on existing plugs, wires, etc, to no avail.)
Anyway. I got it running after replacing spark plugs, setting the timing (initial not running timing 4 degrees btdc), new carb, new ignition switch.
However the oil pressure gauge shows 0, not moving, as well as the ammeter for the alternator is not moving. This 8N was converted to 12 volts before I got it.

After the engine ran for about 1 minute I shut it down due to concerns of no oil moving in engine. Also checked dipstick and oil looked undisturbed and still on the full mark.
Is there a simple way to tell if the oil pump is working or not without the gauge working?

I tried to search this forum for similar problem, but no idea HOW to search this forum. Help?

Bruce (VA) · Jan 19, 2017

Remove the oil line at the T on the bell housing. Turn the engine over with the key off. Look for oil. If you don't see any, remove the large nut below the water pump ( don't lose the spring) and pump some 90w gear oil in there to prime the pump.
75 Tips

Throggy · Jan 19, 2017

Thank you for the suggestions Bruce. BTW, I have printed off a set of your 75 tips. Thank you for doing those!

Bruce (VA) · Jan 19, 2017

You're welcome. Glad you found the tips helpful.

Here's a pic of the large nut that you need to remove to get oil in the pump.

75 Tips

Throggy · Jan 19, 2017

Bruce, no oil came out of T after I loosened the line going to the gauge.
I can not seem to find the "nut" you mentioned below the water pump. I have a set of manuals ordered for this but not here yet. Sort of working off what I can locate on the internet for now to get some issues resolved.

Throggy · Jan 19, 2017

Bruce, that large silver part, hex? Looks more like a large bolt. A tight squeeze in there from what I'm looking at on mine, if that's it.

Bruce (VA) · Jan 19, 2017

Yea, the large silver nut. Be careful, it has a spring behind it.
75 Tips

Throggy · Jan 19, 2017

Hmm. So I pour in gear lube in there to prime the pump, how does the pump get primed? Do I race to start the engine before all the gear lube drains down into the pan? I also have the alternator and fan and radiator on. I'm looking at oil change vids on youtube for 8n and so far nothing about priming pump.

rossow (mn) · Jan 19, 2017

One of my 8Ns loses its prime if it sits for a few weeks without being run. The large nut Bruce mentions and shows in photo comes off using a 15/16" open-end or combination wrench. Once you locate the nut (you may have to clear crud off of it to find it) it's not too hard to get to it by sight and feel. (May need a flashlight or trouble light.) Slip a snug piece of plastic tubing over the nozzle of a pump-type oil can and sort of feel its way into the hole after the nut is removed. A half dozen or so pumps of gear lube always brings my prime back. But if you do this trick and the oil gauge doesn't react in 10 seconds or so of run time, I wouldn't let it run much longer. Best of luck.

Bruce (VA) · Jan 19, 2017

" I'm looking at oil change vids on youtube for 8n and so far nothing about priming pump."

I know it might be hard to believe, but some of what you will see here hasn't made it to YouTube. And some of what has made it to YouTube is BS.

" So I pour in gear lube in there to prime the pump, how does the pump get primed? Do I race to start the engine before all the gear lube drains down into the pan?"

The nut covers the oil pressure relief spring. The line from there runs directly to the oil pump, not the oil pan. You use 90w oil so that it's plenty thick and won't leak out of the pump before you can spin the engine over.
75 Tips

Throggy · Jan 20, 2017

Understandable on the youtube comments Bruce. I do thank you for your time in helping me out and am grateful. I found more info to coincide with what you were telling me here about 3/4 of the way down the page:
http://www.oldfordtractors.com/rep.htm

Am up at it early to see what I can do with this beast.

Throggy · Jan 20, 2017

Priming did not work. Got about 1/8th of a quart of oil into the hole, closed back up with the Plug/bolt/spring/plunger. (It ain't a nut, lol.) Cranked engine pretty quickly after plugged and fan belt back on tightish. Even cranked engine, then ran engine briefly with the line off the joint at bell housing and no oil.
Next I drained the oil out of the pan. Oil pick up tube is in it's proper place.

At a loss what to do next.
Removing the oil pan is no small job as the front end is attached to it!

Bruce (VA) · Jan 20, 2017

" Oil pick up tube is in it's proper place."

Any movement?

" Priming did not work. Got about 1/8th of a quart of oil into the hole,"

Try again because plan B isn't cheap or easy. Try & get more oil in it.
75 Tips

Throggy · Jan 20, 2017

No movement, pickup tube is firmly in place. Waiting for a new oil filter which had ordered anyway, so will be monday before I know more.

Thanks again Bruce, hope you have a good weekend.

Ken(Ark) · Jan 20, 2017

One of my 8Ns loses its prime if it sits for a few weeks without being run.......

I had one that would lose the oil prime overnight . It would start knocking after 10 - 15 seconds . I installed an air valve stem where the 1/8" NPT drain plug is on the oil filter . Before I would start it , I would give it a shot of air and back feed the oil passages and prime the pump . I ran it for a mowing season that way .

I have also primed pumps by removing the oil drain plug and slipping a hose over the end of the pick up tube while using a funnel held high . I would start it until my funnel was empty ( 1/2 qt ? ) , replace the drain plug and top off with oil .

I am sure there are a dozen other ways too .

Bob · Jan 20, 2017

Before tearing things apart, here's something to try...

A new, clean $15.00 pump-up garden sprayer with a couple of quarts of engine oil in it adapted to connect to the oil gauge port will fill the complete internal oiling system, prime the oil pump, and pre-lube the bearings.

<img src = "http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u125/27Grainfield/N%20Ford/OilPrimer.jpg">

(IGNORE the SBC engine, and envision yours in it's place.)

Throggy · Jan 20, 2017

Thank you also to Bob, Ken, Rossow whose messages JUST showed up. Weird.

Bob said "A new, clean $15.00 pump-up garden sprayer with a couple of quarts of engine oil in it adapted to connect to the oil gauge port will fill the complete internal oiling system, prime the oil pump, and pre-lube the bearings. "
I like that idea. Not sure exactly if I could pull that off. Maybe....

Currently the engine is sitting dry of oil as I drained it to check the pick up tube. I should be able to give a few things a try and pray that one works.

Thanks all again.

Bruce (VA) · Jan 20, 2017

You need to get more oil in the pump. Bob's suggestion will work fine.

If you get pressure & start it, watch the gauge. And be sure to check it every time on start up. Maybe you'll get lucky & this was a one time occurrence.
75 Tips

Throggy · Jan 21, 2017

Up early, (3:00 am) tornado watches and warnings around Mississippi. Praying that storm weakens.
Tractor update:
Did a retry of priming engine minus oil filter and only oil in engine. Even had better fit into pressure relief hole with a sprayer like another showed to do (Bob?).

No oil seems to be moving in any lines. I took the oil line off and checked at governor, at T block on bell housing, nothing.

Bruce (VA) · Jan 21, 2017

" No oil seems to be moving in any lines."

It's unlikely but possible that you have a blockage. Start by looking for kinks. Then blow out the lines w/ air.
75 Tips

HFJ · Jan 21, 2017

when i needed to prime mine, i was told to be sure to get the oil past the second hole behind the first, by about an inch or so.

i was told that if i didn't, but just got it thru the outside hole, i would simply be pouring oil on the timing gears (i think?) and that oil would then just drip down into the oil pan.

i used a jug of 90W and a piece of fuel line, got the fuel line in thru both holes, squeezed in about 5 ounces, and the pump primed on the first try.

Throggy · Jan 21, 2017

Blew the lines out with compressed air (90+ psi) and oil flowed, no kinks or blockages. Reprimed...and still no oil flow. So now, somehow, I have to get the oil pan off. I have never worked on anything so big. Well, have worked on cars, but....
Anyway sort of intimidated by this. Lots of big iron iron here that can hurt, crush, or kill. Still trying to find pictures with more detail on the option of leaving the front end on.

Bruce (VA) · Jan 21, 2017

" Still trying to find pictures with more detail on the option of leaving the front end on. "

Good luck with that.

" Anyway sort of intimidated by this."

Get the I&T FO4 manual (tip # 39) some cribbing, jack stands and an engine crane and it's safe & easy. Trying to do it w/o the proper equipment is what will get you hurt.
Anyway sort of intimidated by this.

HFJ · Jan 21, 2017

[b:b07672796a]" Still trying to find pictures with more detail on the option of leaving the front end on. "[/b:b07672796a]

[b:b07672796a][i:b07672796a]"Good luck with that."[/i:b07672796a][/b:b07672796a]

i've done it. at the time, i was unaware it was not possible, and so i didn't think of taking pictures.

:shrug:

i supported the radius rods at the rear with jack stands, and the transmission with cribbing. there was some cursing involved, but nothing out of the ordinary. i am not saying this way is better - but it's certainly doable. i wish i could remember more detail, but, again, i didn't think i needed to pay that much attention. if i had realized it was the wrong way, i wouldn't have tried it to begin with :lol:

floor jack under the pan is good, no matter what u do with the front end.

HFJ · Jan 21, 2017

ps: i won't swear to this, but it seems to me i never directly supported the front end until the last bolts were out of the pan.

Throggy · Jan 22, 2017

Not sure what "cribbing" is. Of course jack stands, support items, anti crush devices, and safety precautions are a Must.

Bruce (VA) · Jan 22, 2017

" Not sure what "cribbing" is."

Wooden blocks to support the tractor. Safer than jack stands. As long as you don't touch the tractor, jack stands work ok. Here are some pics:

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1280075&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=cribbing&start=0
75 Tips

Bruce (VA) · Jan 22, 2017

Yea, I've pulled car engines with out a crane or block and tackle. Big iron pipe, rope & 4 boys. There are difficult ways to do simple stuff if you don't have the tools!

I also discovered that jacks are simply temporary holding devices. Leaving an engine supported by a crane at the end of the day will usually result in it being on the floor by morning. Slowly of course. And as it slowly falls, it will slowly crush the oil fill tube, distributor or whatever else it slowly falls on!

Throggy · Jan 25, 2017

Update:
Hood is off
Radiator is off
Front end of tractor is off (axle, tires)
Oil pan is off
Oil pump is off

The pipe to the pump weld is broke. Also after I took pump apart I noticed some of the gasket was actually missing. A big hmm moment there. Even though weld is broke, there seemed to be a tight-ish fit, but with part of gasket on pump body missing, that combo could be enough not to get the suction/prime needed.
The bearings/bushings on crankshaft end cap/oil pump look good. No unusual wear. I can feel no slop in any connecting rods. The piston cylinders look good/shiny. No scratches.
Ordered the parts needed from this site (oil pump tube, oil pan gasket set, etc) earlier and hope this is a good safe and wise choice. Don't let me/us down.
Also there was oil residue over all moving parts, so nothing was ruined from friction as far as I can tell.

Bruce (VA) · Jan 27, 2017

Post back with an update when you get it running.

Throggy · Feb 3, 2017

Parts arrived finally. Not the 3-5 days advertised however. Maybe a notice that many parts come from the West coast and delivery will take longer, more like a week to 10 days would be appropriate. The replacement oil pick up tube I bought had to be cleared out, obstruction was in tube. Not good.

Throggy · Feb 3, 2017

Oil pump with now cleared out pickup tube is now back in engine. However, with oil pan still Off, I tried to prime the pump/check the oil flow by shooting oil in through a hose where the oil relief valve plug is. I noticed oil flowing off one of the bolts, plus down the front of the oil pump drive gear. No oil went through the pump or through the pick up tube.

Also the drive gear can be wiggled just a little, a touch of slop, but did not observe any oil coming out of where the drive gear shaft is. Although the oil is cold and thick. Not sure what to do. Something is gnawing at me that something just is not right and this pick up tube replacement is not enough to get oil pressure.

Bruce (VA) · Feb 3, 2017

As HFJ said earlier: "be sure to get the oil past the second hole behind the first, by about an inch or so. i was told that if i didn't, but just got it thru the outside hole, i would simply be pouring oil on the timing gears "

Most folks prime the pump by putting assembly lube in it. But.......you won't know if you indeed have another problem until you button it back up.

" Also the drive gear can be wiggled just a little, a touch of slop"

Some one more familiar with oil pumps than I am needs to comment on that. IIRC, that's a no-go.

TheOldHokie · Feb 3, 2017

(quoted from post at 11:41:13 02/03/17)

" Also the drive gear can be wiggled just a little, a touch of slop"

Some one more familiar with oil pumps than I am needs to comment on that. IIRC, that's a no-go.

There should be virtually no radial play in the drive gear shaft to bushing fit - new it should be about .0005/.0010 running fit. The "wiggled just a little" description is one of those subjective observations that is really hard to evaluate. But inability to make and hold prime combined with a "wobbly" shaft makes you wonder about the condition of the pump. Now would be a good opportunity to remove and inspect if not renew it...

TOH

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