Starting Question

Biffer5

Member
Now that I've found this web site it's hard not to post questions I've had for years. (In all the years I've owned my 8n I've only known one other person with one (my mechanic now deceased).

Here is a question that pops up for me every winter. How much to choke...? First off, every winter I seem to have the same starting problems. (BTW, my 8n is a 1948 6 volt with front facing distributor). First snow storm hits... I go to start the tractor (my plow) and the battery is dead. I charge the battery. Then crank and crank the tractor (Rosie). Gas starts pouring out of the bottom of the carb so I take off choke. I assume she's flooded so wait. Crank again with no choke. Nothing. Choke again and eventually get a spark. But still won't start. I take out the plugs and clean them. Better. But then I eventually end up going to the store and buying new plugs as the old ones just seem pretty fouled. Finally... she starts. But my real question here is choking. I feel like the motor wants to be choked but gas is also pouring out of the carb. When that happens does that automatically mean she's flooded?

I know all this begs the question.. Why don't you get all that done before the first storm? the answer is just that I'm a forgetful space cadet that has always taken his 8n for granted. I've always assumed she will outlast me so will just keep running no matter what. So it's always this big surprise when she fails me. (When in fact It was I that failed her...)
 
(quoted from post at 09:33:11 12/18/16) .....But still won't start. I take out the plugs and clean them. Better. But then I eventually end up going to the store and buying new plugs as the old ones just seem pretty fouled. Finally... she starts. But my real question here is choking. I feel like the motor wants to be choked but gas is also pouring out of the carb. When that happens does that automatically mean she's flooded?

)

With mine ('51 8N) both when I had a tired out motor and now with a fresh rebuild it always just has taken about one second of cranking (literally) with the choke closed, then keep cranking with choke open, then maybe another try just close it and open in one movement while cranking if it does not fire. Seems very easy to flood like you are seeing if you leave the choke closed while cranking.
 
My starting procedure is as follows;
Turn gas on.
Move throttle lever open about a third of the way.
Verify transmission in neutral.
Turn ignition switch on.
Depress starter button with left hand, and as the engine turns over quickly pull the choke out with my right hand. Push the choke right back in.
When engine catches pull choke out about halfway, slowly move it back in as engine warms and smooths out.

My hand never leaves the choke knob until the engine is running smoothly. Every engine is a little different in starting, and it takes a bit of
practice.
Good luck, and Merry Christmas.
Jerry
 
There are a few things you need to do to get the tractor ready for winter.

No matter what else you do, the battery must be fully charged. A float charger is helpful; not a trickle charger, but a float charger. A battery charger, even a "trickle" charger, left unattended will eventually boil out a battery. I use float chargers for two reasons: battery longevity and a sure start. Battery sulfation occurs at a specific rate at "X" temperature. Over time, sulfation reduces battery performance and eventually its effects are irreversible. Sulfation of batteries starts when specific gravity falls below 1.225 or voltage measures less than 12.4 for a 12v battery, or 6.2 for a 6 volt battery. Sulfation hardens on the battery plates reducing and eventually destroying the ability of the battery to generate current. Using a float charger significantly reduces sulfation. Your battery loses 33 percent of its power when the temperature dips below freezing, and over 50 percent of its power when the temperature falls below zero. A fully charged battery will not freeze until -76?F; however, a fully discharged battery can start to freeze at 32?F. So??keep the battery fully charged! The oldest battery on the place was purchased new September 2008. I fully expect to get 10 years out of it.

I use Deltran battery tenders on all the tractors, the golf cart & 29 Ford. Pricey, but they work & have in-lines fuses. All are hard wired to the vehicles. (*see below)

If you need to jump it, see tip # 43. No, it doesn?t need to be 12v. Plenty of N?s start just fine on 6v in below 0* temps. (** see below)

Clean grounds & battery terminals are always important. Don?t forget to loosen the starter from the block (see tip # 36) and polish the block & all starter mating surfaces w/ sandpaper to insure a good electrical ground.

If you can?t remember the last time you replaced the battery cables, it?s time to do it. Just because the terminals are clean doesn?t mean there is no corrosion under the insulation. And, this is another case where size matters (see tip # 41)

A charged battery, clean grounds & new cables aren?t going to mean much if the tractor needs a tune-up. At a minimum, every fall, remove the cap, check the points for pitting or burning, re-gap them & put a dab of lube on the cam. (BTW?..if you?ve wondered why some folks get years of use out of a set of points??.this is one of the reasons).

Things that aren?t all that important in warm weather become serious when it gets cold?like timing. A few degrees of timing either way at 60 or 70* isn?t likely to result in a ?no-start? situation. Well, it can at 10 or 20*. Check the timing!

Distributor gaskets are important on a sidemount & critical on a frontmount. As is the gasket under the coil. Just like with the battery cables?.if you can?t remember when you replaced the gaskets, do it this year.

Push the clutch in when you start the engine (tip # 29)

Oil viscosity can make a difference. If the tractor is going to be consistently operated below 20* F, switch to SAE 10w30; at 0* go to SAE 5w30.

Pull the air cleaner cup & check for ice.

Use a fuel stabilizer. I?ve used Marine Sta-Bil for years, but recently switched to Star Tron because Sta-Bil has a 1 year shelf life.

This tip won?t make it start easier, but it will make it run better: turn the main jet out ? to 1 full turn for cold weather operating. Cold air is denser so you need a richer mixture.

While each N has its own starting sequence, none of them will start well by just yanking out the choke rod & holding it out for 5 or 10 seconds while the engine cranks. This is a gravity fuel system on a low compression engine; it is easily flooded by too much choke.

Try this:

Key on, gas on 2 full turns, clutch in, 3/4 throttle, press the starter button. Let it crank for at least 3 - 4 seconds before you pull the choke rod. Then, don't hold it out for more than 2 or 3 seconds.

If you find out it will not start w/o excessive choking, you have problems.

If you flood it, the plugs are fouled & it will be it next to impossible to start. Replace the plugs. You don't need to toss them; heat the tips for a few seconds w/ a propane torch to burn off the invisible spark-robbing deposits from today's additive filled gasoline........or wash them in lacquer thinner.

Folks who live in places a lot colder than I do here in VA will argue about battery blankets or magnetic oil pan heaters as compared to lower radiator hose heaters or dipstick heaters. While the consensus leans toward lower radiator hose heaters, I can?t offer a personal observation; the only thing I?ve ever used to heat an engine was a 100w light bulb laid against the intake manifold. Freeze plug heaters are difficult to find for N?s because of the limited space in the water jacket. Magnetic oil pan heaters on the intake manifold will help as well.

While water in gas today is unusual because of all the ethanol, it?s not unheard of. The problem stems from what?s called ?phase separation? in the gasoline. The alcohol binds to the water & it settles in the bottom of your tank. The way to mitigate that is to keep the tank FULL. Less air means less moisture in the tank for the alcohol to absorb. If you?re lucky enough to live in a state where you can buy ethanol free gas (and it does not require a bank loan to do it) then add alcohol to the gasoline. (e.g., ?HEET?) Otherwise, the 10% ethanol in the gas is more than enough to deal w/ the water.

* Battery Tender website: http://www.batterytender.com/

** This is one of my favorite quotes regarding cold weather starts:

"kilroy

07-25-2009 19:19:52
72.13.217.35
724129 <http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=nboard&th=724129>

my 48 8n is 6v with points in a front mount, and at -30 it fires right up, no block heater, just have to tend the choke for a minute. Have run in the rain and snow and have never had to dry the disributer, just used all the little gaskets and guess it sealed up. I like the points because if they do get wet, dry them, they work again, dont know if the electronics are that way but they cost alot more to replace than points I'm sure"
75 Tips
 

Good stuff.

Questions:

A few of you mention for your starting sequence "Turn gas on two full turns". Does this mean when you are not running the tractor you turn your gas off? If so, why?

Can you jump start a 6v with a 12 volt battery? I thought that might burn out the electronics?

Good to know about the plugs. I regularly flood my engine (but now I won't!) and that explains why my plugs are getting so fouled.

Bruce, not sure how to "turn the main jet out". Is that a screw on the carb?

It's just too darned cold and wet right now in Maine to mess with the distributor and timing matters... that will just have to wait.
 
A few of you mention for your starting sequence "Turn gas on two full turns". Does this mean when you are not running the tractor you turn your gas off? If so, why? See tip # 21. Yes, turn the gas off when you aren't using the tractor; see tip # 9.

Can you jump start a 6v with a 12 volt battery? I thought that might burn out the electronics? Yes, if you do it wrong, you can create problems. That's why I said to see tip # 43.

Bruce, not sure how to "turn the main jet out". Is that a screw on the carb? Yes, the big screw. (see tip # 39)

It's just too darned cold and wet right now in Maine. Where in Maine?
75 Tips
 
Yep, just off 295 near Bath. I've got kin in Lincoln & Millinocket. My mothers family is from Millbridge & Lamoine.
 
I have five gas tractors. They are all different on the amount of
choke they need to start.

8n will start easier in cold weather if you disengage the PTO so
the hydraulic pump is not trying to pump the cold stiff oil. I
have a clothes pin in the tool box. After my 9n starts I put the
clothes pin on the choke rod to hold the choke part way open till
the tractor warms up enough to run on it's own without any choke.
 
(quoted from post at 14:11:45 12/18/16) I have five gas tractors. They are all different on the amount of
choke they need to start.

8n will start easier in cold weather if you disengage the PTO so
the hydraulic pump is not trying to pump the cold stiff oil. I
have a clothes pin in the tool box. After my 9n starts I put the
clothes pin on the choke rod to hold the choke part way open till
the tractor warms up enough to run on it's own without any choke.
I do turn the PTO off. Definitely helps. That clothes pin sounds like a good idea.
 
A tip that I'm not seeing in this thread is to always depress the clutch when starting. Especially important when the temps are under 30*F. There's a lot of drag when cold, even when the transmission is in neutral.

Colin, MN
 
(quoted from post at 20:01:51 12/18/16) A tip that I'm not seeing in this thread is to always depress the clutch when starting. Especially important when the temps are under 30*F. There's a lot of drag when cold, even when the transmission is in neutral.

Colin, MN

Tip #29. :)
 
(quoted from post at 12:24:08 12/18/16)

Can you jump start a 6v with a 12 volt battery? I thought that might burn out the electronics?

as bruce pointed out, if you do it incorrectly, you can.

however, starting a 6v N using a 12v "donor" works fine. make absolutely certain the tractor is in neutral, and the key is "on". just don't connect the jumper cables from the 12v donor to the 6v battery in the tractor. instead, connect one cable to the lug on the tractor's starter, and the other to a good ground point (not battery) on the tractor (engine block, radius rod, etc) [doesn't matter which cable goes to the lug or to the ground, as you are not "joining" batteries]. as soon as you make the "ground" connection, the starter should whir to life. unhook the ground connection to "stop" the starter.

don't let the starter "run" for very long. just a few seconds at a time, and if the tractor doesn't start, wait a bit before trying again.

wally
 
(quoted from post at 12:24:08 12/18/16)

Can you jump start a 6v with a 12 volt battery? I thought that might burn out the electronics?

as bruce pointed out, if you do it incorrectly, you can.

however, starting a 6v N using a 12v "donor" works fine. make absolutely certain the tractor is in neutral, and the key is "on". just don't connect the jumper cables from the 12v donor to the 6v battery in the tractor. instead, connect one cable to the lug on the tractor's starter, and the other to a good ground point (not battery) on the tractor (engine block, radius rod, etc) [doesn't matter which cable goes to the lug or to the ground, as you are not "joining" batteries]. as soon as you make the "ground" connection, the starter should whir to life. unhook the ground connection to "stop" the starter.

don't let the starter "run" for very long. just a few seconds at a time, and if the tractor doesn't start, wait a bit before trying again.

i've done this a few times, when the 6v battery in my 8n was poor (i've since replaced it).

wally
 

Bruce, what do you mean that your battery tenders are hard wired into the vehicles? I just went onto the site and bought the 6 volt junior. But it just looks like alligator clips to me.
 
Biffer,

If gas is pouring out . . .

My '54 International truck, if i haven't started it in a long while,
overflows it's bowl on startup as well.

It's either the needle valve stuck open or the floats dragging in the float bowl causing the bowl to overflow.

Whichever . . . I rap the bowl once with a wooden mallet. Instant end of the problem every time and all subsequent starts after that are OK.

Next summer I'll take the air horn off and see which of those two possibilities it is.

T
 

[i:f702e95130][b:f702e95130]"It's either the needle valve stuck open or the floats dragging in the float bowl causing the bowl to overflow."[/b:f702e95130][/i:f702e95130]

in my pre-N days, i'd have agreed with this. now, to me, gas pouring out just = too much choke.
 
Well the carb tap sure holds true with my Corn binder, and the tap has worked for me also through all my 40 year long love of '47 to '53 Chev truck carbs -- all I ever drove on this island were Chev trucks . . .but those weren't updrafts so you're probably right.
I've dealt with many old carbs
and their needles &amp; floats
and varnish in the bowl

So I won't hold the choke open,
crank it with the coil wire pulled
to see if gas runs out the snout.
:D

Nah, I'll just take your word for it,
don't want to be swampin' the Red Tiger with gasoline.

That's why Propane engines last so long,
no more raw fuel on occasions like this, flooding the cylinder walls, washing away precious [b:39b3ab2fdb]oil[/b:39b3ab2fdb]. . . . or when simply running too rich or when choked for startup .

So 150, 000 miles on a properly treated propane engine
A barely perceptible cylinder wall ridge
A dry homogenous mix
nothing washing down the walls anymore.

The culprit of cylinder wall wear . . . the dreaded wet mix

The only other Marvel Carb I've had before putting a kit in this Jube one was on my old Oliver crawler; crawler was great for ripping out roots, using this rusty old rake, now a drag, on the hydraulic front end of Oliver. It's made out of miniature railway rails.

I'd rip in reverse
a ziggin' and a zaggin'

I sold it totally needing a rebuilt engine
It was so bad it smoked and knocked !!
but times like this I wish I still had it
but with the engine fully rebuilt
So it was up to it's great potential.

Merry Christmas everyone:D

Terry

43369.jpg
:)
 

[i:4ba7b08609][b:4ba7b08609]"So I won't hold the choke open,
crank it with the coil wire pulled
to see if gas runs out the snout.
:D "[/b:4ba7b08609][/i:4ba7b08609]

:lol: don't get me wrong, i smack carbs too, wood handled hammer, or random chunks of lumber if they're closer.

i didn't learn the choke thing right away, so i smacked the N carb a time or three before i got my mind right ;)
 
Maybe I screwed up the float "drop" and after the gas evaporates
the floats stick to the bottom after several months.

That's my theory and I'm not stickin' to it! :D

Warning: thread highjacking

Beggin' your pardon Biffer
thread not about
Holley and the Cornbinder.
However romantic that might sound.
 

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