Buffaloed with Oddball Run Issue

Help and ideas needed! Posted a few weeks ago with what was then considered to be a leaking carb float problem. This 601 had started the first couple of revs with just a brief touch of choke and ran strong all summer, mowing two pastures in the NC mountains with a lot of hills; it was like my 8N's were on steroids! Prior to acquiring it last Spring with a small farm purchase, it had sat outside for a couple of years under a ragged tarp, but a new battery and cables, purged fuel system, new plugs, and cleaning the points had it up and running great. Three weeks after being shut down after normal use, it started with clouds of black smoke and very rough running, and shortly would cut off. Nothing else had changed; all indications were a leaking float (or so I thought). After a professional rebuild by Royce (and a beautiful job of course), it started with the same clouds of black smoke and would run rough for only a few seconds before cutting off.

Since then, the air intake and exhaust have been checked for obstructions, proper alignment and connection to choke and throttle linkages has been confirmed, excellent fuel flow with 1/4" spark, 1243 firing order confirmed, a new coil, new ignition wires, rotor, cap, and dust plate replaced with YT parts, a second set of new plugs, shaft of distributor checked for looseness (tight in one direction, a few degrees of movement in the other), checked to see if distributor had moved (no indication that it has moved from the looks of the paint on the hold down bracket and bolt, and distributor was tight as a tick in its mounting), and yet the problem remains; in fact, now worse, it will not even start with a fully charged battery.

We're baffled; I'm sure some you of have faced a similar run problem and I am seeking your experience and ideas. The tractor is four hours away and I only get there every coupled of weeks to try new things. I would like to get it up and going again..., thanks in advance.
 
(quoted from post at 08:31:56 12/05/16) Help and ideas needed! Posted a few weeks ago with what was then considered to be a leaking carb float problem. This 601 had started the first couple of revs with just a brief touch of choke and ran strong all summer, mowing two pastures in the NC mountains with a lot of hills; it was like my 8N's were on steroids! Prior to acquiring it last Spring with a small farm purchase, it had sat outside for a couple of years under a ragged tarp, but a new battery and cables, purged fuel system, new plugs, and cleaning the points had it up and running great. Three weeks after being shut down after normal use, it started with clouds of black smoke and very rough running, and shortly would cut off. Nothing else had changed; all indications were a leaking float (or so I thought). After a professional rebuild by Royce (and a beautiful job of course), it started with the same clouds of black smoke and would run rough for only a few seconds before cutting off.

Since then, the air intake and exhaust have been checked for obstructions, proper alignment and connection to choke and throttle linkages has been confirmed, excellent fuel flow with 1/4" spark, 1243 firing order confirmed, a new coil, new ignition wires, rotor, cap, and dust plate replaced with YT parts, a second set of new plugs, shaft of distributor checked for looseness (tight in one direction, a few degrees of movement in the other), checked to see if distributor had moved (no indication that it has moved from the looks of the paint on the hold down bracket and bolt, and distributor was tight as a tick in its mounting), and yet the problem remains; in fact, now worse, it will not even start with a fully charged battery.

We're baffled; I'm sure some you of have faced a similar run problem and I am seeking your experience and ideas. The tractor is four hours away and I only get there every coupled of weeks to try new things. I would like to get it up and going again..., thanks in advance.

You would have to check with Royce but still sounds like a carb or air issue. Was just talking to a local tractor mechanic last week. He was complaining about the quality of the kits for carbs. Gaskets that don't fit right or fail to seal, needle and seats that don't seal according to him are a huge problem. And I know he tries to buy quality parts. No TSC parts through his shop.

You say you checked the air cleaner for obstructions. How about the inlet for the air cleaner. Years ago my dad had a diesel that worked fine but was blowing excessive amounts of black smoke. Air filter was serviced and dad was about to send the pump in when he had the entire air cleaner assembly off. He looked through the inlet tube and it was about half blocked with dirt.

Rick
 
Royse tested the carb on his and it was fine; I'm sure he uses the best kits available. I tried to run it with the air intake hose disconnected and the symptoms were the same; no indication of obstruction and no raw fuel leaking into the intake.
 
Shouldn't happen with a fresh carb but did you check the adjustment screws? The tension springs may be bad or broken.

From your description it sure sounds like a fuel issue but just on an off chance have you checked the timing? From what I gather you had the distributer out? Almost a thing of the past but it might be time to see if you can't find a used timing light on evilbay.

Rick
 
The carb is in perfect condition and ran well on a similar tractor; after all, it was a Royse project and his work is tops. I have not checked the timing other than confirming the ignition wire order is correct, because how could timing change when it was running fine, shut down, and no one touched the tractor until I tried to start it next time the pastures needed mowing. I considered a vandal turned the distributor, but that would have left telltale marks where it is attached to the block, and there is no mark or indication of mischief. I agree that it sounds/looks like a mis-timed engine, and will ensure next visit that the rotor orientation is right for #1 TDC; but those things don't happen without external forces or something breaking inside the engine..., and the distributor shaft is tight one direction and moves a few degrees the other as the centrifugal advance picks up. But I like your thinking! Keep on!
a244667.jpg
 
Clouds of black smoke is too much fuel from someplace. You didn't put diesel in it, by chance?

Take the intake hose off the carb before you start it. See if the choke plate is opening correctly before starting
 
I agree with over choking. Is it possible that one of the hoses connecting the air filter tube to the air cleaner and to the carb has a loose inner liner being sucked down when running and flipping back when the engine stops?
You said "air intake..." has been checked for obstructions. Does that mean you removed the air cleaner assembly, removed the screens and cleaned them?
In my mind, something is blocking air flow, period. Good luck and please, let us know.
 
(quoted from post at 11:44:39 12/05/16) The carb is in perfect condition and ran well on a similar tractor; after all, it was a Royse project and his work is tops. I have not checked the timing other than confirming the ignition wire order is correct, because how could timing change when it was running fine, shut down, and no one touched the tractor until I tried to start it next time the pastures needed mowing. I considered a vandal turned the distributor, but that would have left telltale marks where it is attached to the block, and there is no mark or indication of mischief. I agree that it sounds/looks like a mis-timed engine, and will ensure next visit that the rotor orientation is right for #1 TDC; but those things don't happen without external forces or something breaking inside the engine..., and the distributor shaft is tight one direction and moves a few degrees the other as the centrifugal advance picks up. But I like your thinking! Keep on!
a244667.jpg

I worked on a JD 4020 gasser, much larger than an N for a friend that had starting issues. Centrifugal advance was shot. He was turning the dizzy to start it then rotating it to get it to run at rated PTO RPMs.

Rick
 
Only use non-ethanol gasoline in my old tractors. Yes, tried to start it with intake air removed; choke was operating normally and no evidence of raw fuel.
 
I serviced the air filter system at the beginning of the season. It was in good condition with no baffle problems. Air intake hose on or off doesn't affect the symptoms.
 
That is the next thing I will be doing. Even though the missing (when it would run several seconds) was random, not rhythmic as one cylinder would seem to cause, I will be checking compression next time out there.
 
I realize about anything can break, but the distributor shaft feels right and it had been running strong, with good throttle response throughout the quadrant at all RPM's, so that seemed unlikely with the tractor just sitting waiting for the next use. Do you know a way to check this without engine disassembly?
 
"You would have to check with Royce but still sounds like a carb or air issue. Was just talking to a local tractor mechanic last week. He was complaining about the quality of the kits for carbs. Gaskets that don't fit right or fail to seal, needle and seats that don't seal according to him are a huge problem. And I know he tries to buy quality parts. No TSC parts through his shop."

I'd say that's a fair assessment at first glance Rick.
Every part in that carb is new except the butterflies.
Springs, floats, needle and seat, et al.
As Jim mentioned, it ran fine on my tractor and was adjusted
for him like all of them I rebuild. Yet, his tractor has trouble.
Rough handling in shipping could be a culprit.
Although these are the same symptoms it had before the rebuild.

It certainly seems to be getting far too much fuel.
He has tried starting it with the fuel shut off too.
Then it started with black smoke and began to backfire IIRC.
 
Further thought. By chance is the choke butterfly connected upside down; pushing in choke rod closes choke rather than open? It has to be too much gas, not enough air. We are all NOT "seeing" something here.
 
My 801 did something similar this summer, turned out the distributor shaft got bent, have no idea how, replaced then shaft, and the oil pump connected to it, and all is well.pull the dist cap off, and turn over, watch the shaft, is it spinning, or wobbling?
 
That has been my thought all along that something simple has gone awry. My two 8N's start great, one is 12 volt EI negative ground and the other is 6 volt positive ground, and if they don't start right away, simple troubleshooting gets to the problem in just a few minutes. This one just has kicked my behind and hasn't had the one thing "click" yet.
 
Maybe you didn't put in diesel, but maybe they did at the gas station. BLACK SMOKE is too much fuel. Just gotta find where it is coming from. Do you have access to another carb from another tractor?
 
Drain the fuel and put in some fresh, not from supply left with tractor. Still think someone put diesel or something else in the fuel.
 
That would sure do it..., and it is easy to try this. The tractor was covered with a tarp and didn't appear to have been molested. I could have gotten a slug of diesel in my 5 gallon can at the fuel depot without noticing, even though I only use their non-ethanol pump. Thank you.
 
I do appreciate your thoughts on this. Thinking back, after the last use and when the engine cooled, I filled it up with my 5 gallon container that had been filled up at the fuel depot the day before since I knew I would be mowing. The depot is not a service station per se, but a local fuel dealership that has the only non-ethanol pump in this little nearby town. It has fuel oil, kerosene, and gasoline tanks and pumps, some for ag and off road use, so it could have been an error made there by them, or by me. After filling the tractor and covering it with the tarp, the tractor wasn't used for three weeks and the problem began at the next attempt to start it. All that has happened would fit this scenario, including that there is usually a strong wind on this ridgeline mountain property, so I would not have noticed the different smell when I was filling it. I am anxious to get back to the mountains to check this..., thanks Sherlock!
 
(quoted from post at 07:05:03 12/06/16) "You would have to check with Royce but still sounds like a carb or air issue. Was just talking to a local tractor mechanic last week. He was complaining about the quality of the kits for carbs. Gaskets that don't fit right or fail to seal, needle and seats that don't seal according to him are a huge problem. And I know he tries to buy quality parts. No TSC parts through his shop."

I'd say that's a fair assessment at first glance Rick.
Every part in that carb is new except the butterflies.
Springs, floats, needle and seat, et al.
As Jim mentioned, it ran fine on my tractor and was adjusted
for him like all of them I rebuild. Yet, his tractor has trouble.
Rough handling in shipping could be a culprit.
Although these are the same symptoms it had before the rebuild.

It certainly seems to be getting far too much fuel.
He has tried starting it with the fuel shut off too.
Then it started with black smoke and began to backfire IIRC.

"It certainly seems to be getting far too much fuel.
He has tried starting it with the fuel shut off too.
Then it started with black smoke and began to backfire"

Dat is your lead rich mixtures do not back fire.
Instead of to much fuel it maybe Incomplete combustion.
Chew on that awhile I gotta go back to work :(

If it were not a updraft carb you could look in the throat and tell if the carb was inducing to much fuel... :twisted:
 
[b:14781d35ad][i:14781d35ad]
"
Dat is your lead rich mixtures do not back fire.
Instead of to much fuel it maybe Incomplete combustion."

Royse did a complete carb overhaul and fix. Then he tested that carb on his NAA.
I don't think that there is a carb problem.....I think what Hobo said about an incomplete combustion is the problem!!
Possible broken drive gear on the bottom of the distrib. shaft, OR, the wire going from the coil to/thru the distrib body, is shorting on the distrib. case?????

I helped A member here some time ago,(DYoungan, by name) with those same symptoms. Ended up being a distrib. gear, installed out of time .....ONE TOOTH off can/will cause the whole firing system to be out of time!!!
Sure does soot-up the sparkplugs!!!! QUICK TWO!!!

Gary[/i:14781d35ad][/b:14781d35ad]
 
"Dat is your lead rich mixtures do not back fire."

Exactly. Jim and I discussed that on the phone.
Thing is, it shouldn't backfire even then.
As many as I put on and off the tractor, I shut
the gas off and run them out of fuel all the time
so they're not such a mess to take apart or ship back.
They don't backfire, they just quit.
 
Distributors, like women, I've had few experiences in number, but the distributor is tight in one direction (CCW, if I remember correctly), and it moves a few degrees (CW) in the other and I can feel what I assume is the advance mechanism taking up. That seems nominal to me of limited experience. It couldn't be an installation problem since it has not been apart, but it could have sheared the pin holding the gear as Royse had once suggested. But doesn't the movement described above negate that? Is there a way to check that? I will check to see if the coil wire is shorting out; I had inspected the wire for frays and it looked normal, but I did not put the meter on it yet.
 

They do backfire with a stuck valve or two. I would do a compression check, if the fuel checks out.
 
(quoted from post at 04:35:30 12/07/16) Distributors, like women, I've had few experiences in number, but the distributor is tight in one direction (CCW, if I remember correctly), and it moves a few degrees (CW) in the other and I can feel what I assume is the advance mechanism taking up. That seems nominal to me of limited experience. It couldn't be an installation problem since it has not been apart, but it could have sheared the pin holding the gear as Royse had once suggested. But doesn't the movement described above negate that? Is there a way to check that? I will check to see if the coil wire is shorting out; I had inspected the wire for frays and it looked normal, but I did not put the meter on it yet.

Static timing could be confirmed EZ'nuff... I am not leaning toward that being the problem tho...

Google, how to test static timing with a light bulb.

As EZ as it is to do I would pull the reins back and confirm the basics. I would take a few min and do a compression check even it it checks I may look at the valve adjustment. I just don't like some little basic issue beat me up...

Another little overlooked basic issue is fuel quality... I would take a sample in a clear jar... (of course I would pull out my $5 ethanol tester to check fuel quality. Its one of my cheap tools that I trust.
 

I hit the Wong fudgen button...

Have you tried replacing the spark plugs...

Nutter question for Royce did you see a issue with the carb...

Spark plugs NO MATTER what you have read striking a match to'em and wiping them off will not get'er done..

Worst case exit US1 south Sanford, then exit 70a,,, then exit 148 take a right at the stop sign, 3rd drive on the left drop it off I can fix it...
 
"Nutter question for Royce did you see a issue with the carb..."

As I told Jim, no, nothing jumped out at me that was out of the
ordinary for a used carb. Nothing obviously gummed up or
mechanically binding. I cleaned it thoroughly, all passages, then
put it back together and tested it on my tractor. Carb is good.

There's something else amiss here and I'm trying to help him
find it. Simple as that. I suggested he run a compression test
and make sure when #1 piston is on TDC that the rotor is pointed
at the tower the #1 plug wire is attached to, where ever that is.
He said he will when he gets back up there. It's a ways away.
Am I wasting his time with those suggestions?
 
As GB said, the plugs get sooted really quick in this condition, so they have been changed twice with new 437's I had in my parts inventory as I tried different things. It did not result in any change. I will be checking fuel next, then compression. You did an axle and brake replacement on my first 8N many years ago, and I left you taking a blue cultivator with me; so I know where you are. This tractor is way up in the NC mountains, and no way to get it on a trailer until I figure out what is wrong and get it started, then I guess it will be fixed!
 
(quoted from post at 09:31:39 12/07/16) "Nutter question for Royce did you see a issue with the carb..."

As I told Jim, no, nothing jumped out at me that was out of the
ordinary for a used carb. Nothing obviously gummed up or
mechanically binding. I cleaned it thoroughly, all passages, then
put it back together and tested it on my tractor. Carb is good.

There's something else amiss here and I'm trying to help him
find it. Simple as that. I suggested he run a compression test
and make sure when #1 piston is on TDC that the rotor is pointed
at the tower the #1 plug wire is attached to, where ever that is.
He said he will when he gets back up there. It's a ways away.
Am I wasting his time with those suggestions?

Royse its not the carb... One lead in the post it back fires its not possible for a over rich condition that originates from the carb to cause a back fire. If it did everytime you apply the choke you would get a back fire :wink: If it did a engine would run well below a 13.1 mixture. I was just curious as to the health of the carb when it was put in your hands...

Question is every plug fuel fouled...
 
Every plug is fouled evenly. The spark jumps just over 1/4." When it would run for a few seconds (at first), there was no rhythm in the miss as you get with a fouled plug or problem with one cylinder, it was just random misses and very rough. My leading thing to check at this point is contaminated fuel; while I purchased fuel from the non-ethanol pump at the local depot (verified with receipt), there is always a screw-up waiting to happen..., and it would explain everything. The place I buy from sells heating oil and kerosene so Murphy's law is ever-present. Also will check compression, and will check again the timing, and will go again with new plugs cleaned with propane torch.
 
[b:d1fd40a202][i:d1fd40a202]
" My leading thing to check at this point is contaminated fuel; while I purchased fuel from the non-ethanol pump at the local depot (verified with receipt), there is always a screw-up waiting to happen..., and it would explain everything. The place I buy from sells heating oil and kerosene so Murphy's law is ever-present"

Good place to start with!!!!! I'll bet you have just hit on the problem. They prob. sold you a can of 'heating oil', instead of gas!!!
If that is the case.......take extra gas with you to flush out the tank , fuel line and the Carb.
AND.......Make the 'depot', make the 'mistake' right for you!!!!
:twisted:

GB[/i:d1fd40a202][/b:d1fd40a202]
 
"Royse its not the carb..."

Unless something drastic happened in shipping, I'd bet money
on that. It was tested too thoroughly for it to be the root cause.

Looking at the picture though, the sediment bowl does look a
bit cloudy. I know some are yellow-ish plastic, but still.
I'm leaning toward contaminated fuel too. I'd at least check it.
Maybe drain some into a glass jar to inspect and smell.
 

My nose would tell me if its anything other than water but I have seen it get by some folks.

My partner in crime took in a driveability problem from a truck shop. I had all I could do and fighting one that had my number. My motto " I have my own problems I can not fix they come first I am not gonna fix someone elses problems first ".

The other shops wife called me ALL the TIME I told her to come get her chit are leave it and quit calling I will fix it when I fix the problems I already had... She flew off the bat I wonder why :lol:

After the call I went for a drive the DIESEL smell was obvious to me but not to them they are a Diesel shop... I told her when she picked it up before they put anymore puters on it are othe chit it did not need they mite drain the diesel out and put some gas in the tank...

If its loaded with water it drives it lean a lean mix will backfire Your fuel ratio will exceed 16.1.1

:wink:

If it will smutt the plugs I dunno.

Rich Symptoms:

Poor power output
Starts too easily when cold – requiring little or no choke. Responds readily to the throttle when cold. Runs worse as it warms up
Hard starting when hot
Ragged idle…due to “loading up” of unburnt fuel
Idle that tends toward lower rpms than expected based on the setting of the curb idle screw
Easily settles to idle, but has tendency to dip below set idle speed then recover…sometimes stalls
Strong pungent odor of unburned fuel
Buildup of black, dry, sooty carbon deposits on spark plugs. Bad cases of this buildup will foul the plug completely and kill that cylinder.
Excessive buildup of dry sooty deposits in the exhaust system
Responds to throttle, but sluggish
When fully warmed up, runs much worse when choke is applied.
Poor fuel mileage
Black “puffy” smoke during hard acceleration
Temporarily removing air filter element makes the engine run better.
Runs worse as you climb to higher elevations
Fresh engine oil quickly turns black from excess fuel dilution
Lean Symptoms:

Poor power output
Hard to start when cold – requires excessive choking.
Lengthy warm-up required.
Runs better (but not good as it warms up)
Spark plugs overly clean..with no deposits or slight glazed appearance
Rough, erratic idle that drifts toward higher rpms than expected based on the setting of the curb idle screw. Sometimes a lean condition will cause a “hanging” idle that is slow to settle down to set idle speed.
Backfiring
Sluggish…hesitates when the throttle is opened, then recovers (often accompanied by a slight backfire)
Vague throttle response
Surging at steady throttle cruise operation
When fully warmed up, runs better when choke is applied.
Engine runs hotter than normal. Headers can turn cherry red in extreme cases!
Temporarily removing air filter element makes the engine run worse.
Unusual “sucking” noises in the intake area.
Runs better as you climb to higher elevations
Slight back-firing on deceleration. This normal tendency is controlled by the air cut-off valve(s) operation. If the air cutoff valve(s) is working properly and you still have backfiring on deceleration, something is causing a lean condition.

Link I agree with his assessment.

http://www.randakksblog.com/lean-vs-rich/

If you want to look deeper google

lean fuel mixture effects

Pick and chose what patterns your issue...
 
The density of gasoline is about 45 pounds per cubit foot, kerosene about 50, and the fuel oils around 55. Is this enough to separate or do they dissolve into each other?
 
Good tips Hobo. Those will help a lot of people. Thanks!

"Surging at steady throttle cruise operation"
To this one I'd add that it will happen sitting still too.
Particularly noticeable following a cold (engine) start.
Governor doing it's job. Partially pulling the choke will help.
May smooth right out after warm up and run fine.
I'm talking strictly about MS carbs on Ford tractors here.
It has been especially evident on Jubilee/NAA tractors for me.
 
(quoted from post at 23:53:34 12/07/16) The density of gasoline is about 45 pounds per cubit foot, kerosene about 50, and the fuel oils around 55. Is this enough to separate or do they dissolve into each other?
I can't answer that question Jim, but in my experience, if I discovered
there was contamination in the tank, I drained it, clean it and replaced
the fuel with new. It has always worked out better for me.

Once it is running well if you want to put some of the old stuff
in and try burning it mixed in, that might work. Quart per tank
or so probably wouldn't hurt depending on what the contamination
is. Home heating fuel? Might work. MMO/ATF does.

Dad always drained all the gas out of his lawnmowers in the
winter up here. Being a child of the great depression, he never
threw anything away. He just dumped it into the tank on the
old John Deere 2 cylinder a little at a time and away we went.
 
(quoted from post at 10:12:53 12/08/16)
(quoted from post at 23:53:34 12/07/16) The density of gasoline is about 45 pounds per cubit foot, kerosene about 50, and the fuel oils around 55. Is this enough to separate or do they dissolve into each other?
I can't answer that question Jim, but in my experience, if I discovered
there was contamination in the tank, I drained it, clean it and replaced
the fuel with new. It has always worked out better for me.

Once it is running well if you want to put some of the old stuff
in and try burning it mixed in, that might work. Quart per tank
or so probably wouldn't hurt depending on what the contamination
is. Home heating fuel? Might work. MMO/ATF does.

Dad always drained all the gas out of his lawnmowers in the
winter up here. Being a child of the great depression, he never
threw anything away. He just dumped it into the tank on the
old John Deere 2 cylinder a little at a time and away we went.

I burnt a valve shortly after burning stale fuel I had drained out of a customers car in my gas hog tow truck. A ford 400 is not friendly to valves to start off with it broke form do'N DAT I now burn it off in a can.... :wink:

MY TIP BOOK

The good tips :Key words and google:

The bad Tips :You have to have basic knowledge to weed out the BS you will come across in your search:

I am sure Y'all can research it deeper It was late I was done for the day. Take what fits his issue build a battle plan ( to eliminate the enemy)

Cause and effect

List the complaint pick the effect and list it lets hash it out from there and weed out the BS...
 
Absolutely will drain it all, I was just wondering if I could confirm anything by seeing the separation of layers. I had topped off the fuel tank as I customarily do after the last use, so 12 or 13 gallons are on board.
 
(quoted from post at 20:47:29 12/08/16) Absolutely will drain it all, I was just wondering if I could confirm anything by seeing the separation of layers. I had topped off the fuel tank as I customarily do after the last use, so 12 or 13 gallons are on board.

If its loaded with water yes. Shine a flashlight in the tank water goes to the bottom... If you drain it any water that can get to the drain will come out first, Stop when you see no more water.
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top