Hydraulic Fluid

Is TSC's Traveler UTF suitable for the 8N? What do most of you guys use?

My suggestions are in tip # 3. I've used all
them and they all work fine for me here in
VA
75 Tips

I use Traveler UTF. Not the 303 stuff they sell.
It is marked on the back to meet Ford spec M2C-134D.
Walmart sells an oil that meets that spec too, but locally,
the oil is more expensive at Walmart than it is at TSC.

I found this info right here on Yesterday's Tractor.

The transmission fluid in an “N”:-series tractor lubricates the transmission, differential, rear wheel bearings, PTO and hydraulic pump drive, and it also cats as the working fluid for the hydraulic lift. In 9N/2N models, it also lubricates the steering sector and shaft system.

The owner’s manual for the 9N and 2N models specified the use of only two fluids. They were STRAIGHT MINERAL OIL SAE 90 (above freezing) and STRAIGHT MINERAL OIL SAE 80 (below freezing). Caps in original. By the time 1950 rolled around, and the 8N was the only Ford tractor, oil technology had advanced a bit, and Ford specified the use of “Mild EP GEAR OIL conforming to Ford specs M4864A (SAE 80) (below freezing) or B (SAE 90) (above freezing)” . Caps in original.

Today, if asked, Ford-New Holland will specify the use of a combined hydraulic/transmission fluid which conforms to their specification M2C134D in all “N” series models.

The original specification for STRAIGHT MINERAL OIL would conform to the present-day API gear oil designation of GL1. Although less normal today, this can still be had – it is still used in non-synchromesh truck transmissions, for example.

Ford M4864 “mild EP GEAR OIL” would conform to the present-day API gear oil designation of GL3. It contains some Extreme Pressure additives (sulphur and phosphorus compounds) which make it a better lubricant for transmissions and for bevel-gear final drives where there is high-pressure sliding contact. It should be noted that the EP designation refers to contact pressure between moving parts – it has nothing to do with hydraulic pressure.

Combined hydraulic/transmission fluid is a compromise product. It contains many additives to make it work reasonably well as a hydraulic power transmission fluid, as a hydrostatic power transmission fluid and as a gear lubricant. It is not typically specified by SAE viscosity number (or “weight”) although it may be.

The Ford M2C134D fluid, for example, is not specified by SAE “weight” although its viscosity is defined by maximum numbers on various scales at various temperatures. Its viscosity on the SAE scale, based on those numbers, would be between 40 and 50.

True hydraulic fluids – fluids intended only for hydraulic and/or hydrostatic power transmission - are also typically not specified by SAE viscosity number. The ATF familiar to every driver with an automatic transmission, for example, carries no SAE viscosity number – instead, it is specified by a whole range of performance requirements, of which its viscosity is just one part. True hydraulic or hydrostatic fluids are typically of the order of 10 to 20 on the SAE viscosity scale. So there is no such thing as "SAE 80 Mild EP hydraulic fluid", for example.

If we go shopping at TSC, for example, we will find two types of fluid for our “N”-series transmission/hydraulic application on sale. One is marked “Ford Tractor Transmission Fluid – High quality oil for use in older Ford tractors”. This is the original stuff, almost. It has an SAE viscosity number of 80W90. It is not “straight mineral oil”. The sniff test tells us that it has sulphur additives, so it is at least an API GL3 gear oil. Most likely, it is an API GL5 gear oil, because that’s the universal automobile standard for gear oil these days. It is exactly the same type of oil that would be used in a conventional automobile or truck differential, although it may not be up to the latest standard. Our other choice is “Universal Tractor Hydraulic Fluid”. This is a pig of a different grunt. It is a 10W20 oil (much thinner, and multigrade) which is “recommended” for use in place of the Ford M2C134D, as well as a whole list of other manufacturers specifications. Note that it does NOT say “Meets Ford M2C134D specification” – it can’t do that, just based on the stated viscosity alone. This oil does have an additive package which is intended to make it work reasonably well as both a gear lubricant and a hydraulic fluid. We may also see “Hydraulic fluid” on sale. This is something else again. It is not intended for use in transmissions or final drive applications, and indeed it says so in big letters on the jug. This is for hydraulic systems ONLY. As it happens, it is marked with an “equivalent” SAE viscosity number of 20. It should be noted that there are no such designations as “EP” or “mild EP” for hydraulic fluid, and indeed, API and SAE don’t really get into specifying hydraulic fluids at all – some of their tests and standards are sometimes used for hydraulic fluid, but the full specifications are typically originated by the makers of hydraulic equipment. To use this in an N transmission would be quick and sure death for the transmission and differential - it simply lacks both the viscosity and the additives required to do that work. The hydraulics would probably work quite well using this, though. TSC is not the only game in town, but broadly the same choices are available at your local ag supply store. The “universal” transmission/hydraulic fluid is perhaps the least best choice. It attempts to meet fifty different manufacturers specifications in one fluid. Some of those specifications are mutually exclusive – as will be seen in the example of viscosity noted above. It would, however, be a good hydraulic fluid for a hydraulic lift system in good working order. The originally-specified 80 or 90 weight gear oil is probably a better transmission and final-drive lubricant – the downside is that it is not so good as a hydraulic fluid, especially in cold weather. For those reasons, a combination transmission/hydraulic fluid which does conform to the Ford M2C134D spec is probably a better compromise between hydraulic system performance and gear lubrication.

(quoted from post at 20:32:34 09/25/16)
I found this info right here on Yesterday's Tractor.


[color=red:379075484f][b:379075484f]The Ford M2C134D fluid, for example, is not specified by SAE “weight” although its viscosity is defined by maximum numbers on various scales at various temperatures. Its viscosity on the SAE scale, based on those numbers, would be between 40 and 50.[/b:379075484f][/color:379075484f]
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Our other choice is “Universal Tractor Hydraulic Fluid”. This is a pig of a different grunt. [color=red:379075484f][b:379075484f][u:379075484f]It is a 10W20 oil (much thinner, and multigrade) which is “recommended” for use in place of the Ford M2C134D, as well as a whole list of other manufacturers specifications. Note that it does NOT say “Meets Ford M2C134D specification” – it can’t do that, just based on the stated viscosity alone.[/u:379075484f][/b:379075484f][/color:379075484f]

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LLAMAS got it mostly right but he is dead wrong in one regard. UTF is not a "pig of a different grunt". The TSC Premium Universal Tractor Transmission Fluid (and most any of the other generic UTF's) is the same viscosity as "M2C-134D". I don't know where he got his viscosity numbers but according to Technical Support from the current manufacturer the viscosity specifications for CNH Ambra Multi-G 134 (aka M2C-134D) are"

Kinematic viscosity of 60 cSt @ 40C
Kinematic viscosity of 9.4 cSt @ 100C
Viscosity index of 136

That is in line with the specifications for most generic UTF and if you want to try and do as llamas did and put an SAE engine/gear oil grade on it they would be:

Monograde gear oil SAE 80
Multigrade gear oil SAE 75W80
Monograde engine oil SAE 30
Multigrade engine oil SAE 10w30

In other words for all practical intents and purposes Ford M2C-134D is nothing more than an OEM name brand specification for industry standard UTF. Just like Ford engine oil specifications M2C913A/B/C are essentially the same as the corresponding industry standard API engine oil specifications.

In an N-series you won't know the difference between Traveler UTF and Ambra Multi-G 134 (M2C-134D). In fact you will be hard pressed to find any evidence of a difference in ANY tractor that uses that type of fluid. Same goes for similar products like Kubota UDT or JD Hy-Gard.

TOH

I use to use the New Holland (now CNH)Ambri Ford Spec stuff til it got too expensive. I've been using the TSC Traveller SAE90 Oil made exclusively for old Ford Tractors and have had no issues. Note that the N's transmission and hydraulics share the same sump/reservoir.



Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

(quoted from post at 14:52:29 09/26/16) I use to use the New Holland (now CNH)Ambri Ford Spec stuff til it got too expensive. I've been using the TSC Traveller SAE90 Oil made exclusively for old Ford Tractors and have had no issues. Note that the N's transmission and hydraulics share the same sump/reservoir.

<center><img src="http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/ploughNman/TSC13402.jpg"></center>

<center><img src="http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/ploughNman/TSC13404.jpg"></center>

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

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That's what I purchased for the refill after repairs..

(quoted from post at 17:52:29 09/26/16) I use to use the New Holland (now CNH)Ambri Ford Spec stuff til it got too expensive. I've been using the TSC Traveller SAE90 Oil made exclusively for old Ford Tractors and have had no issues. Note that the N's transmission and hydraulics share the same sump/reservoir.

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

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More like [b:ce37658844][i:ce37658844]labeled[/i:ce37658844][/b:ce37658844] for Ford tractor owners ;-) It's just ordinary gear oil without the EP additives....

TOH

(quoted from post at 15:04:49 09/26/16)

(quoted from post at 17:52:29 09/26/16) I use to use the New Holland (now CNH)Ambri Ford Spec stuff til it got too expensive. I've been using the TSC Traveller SAE90 Oil made exclusively for old Ford Tractors and have had no issues. Note that the N's transmission and hydraulics share the same sump/reservoir.

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

Click to expand...

More like [b:fe25e0e35e][i:fe25e0e35e]labeled[/i:fe25e0e35e][/b:fe25e0e35e] for Ford tractor owners ;-) It's just ordinary gear oil without the EP additives....

TOH

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Does an 8N need extreme pressure additives?

Ok, slight tangent, but while you are here.........in the non-thactor brands, (Hy-Gard, M2C134, Permatran3, etc.) what should I look for to be sure it is compatible with wet brakes?

(quoted from post at 18:17:04 09/26/16)

(quoted from post at 15:04:49 09/26/16)

(quoted from post at 17:52:29 09/26/16) I use to use the New Holland (now CNH)Ambri Ford Spec stuff til it got too expensive. I've been using the TSC Traveller SAE90 Oil made exclusively for old Ford Tractors and have had no issues. Note that the N's transmission and hydraulics share the same sump/reservoir.

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

Click to expand...

More like [b:8c6845b366][i:8c6845b366]labeled[/i:8c6845b366][/b:8c6845b366] for Ford tractor owners ;-) It's just ordinary gear oil without the EP additives....

TOH

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Does an 8N need extreme pressure additives?

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Yes and even Ford thought so. The original "straight mineral oil" recommendation was quickly replaced by a recommendation for M4864A/B mild EP gear oil. Just like M2C-134A/B/C/D that is a Ford specification for an industry standard product.

GL-1 is an obsolete specification. In a spiral bevel final drive it can't compete with EP gear oils and offers absolutely no advantage. You will get better performance from a modern GL-4/5 gear oil - period. The stuff at the bottom is straight from the API handbook.

TOH

PS> Most UTF has a GL-4 level of performance

[b:8c6845b366]
3 Service Designations in Current Use

3.1 API GL-4[/b:8c6845b366]

The designation API GL-4 denotes lubricants [color=red:8c6845b366][u:8c6845b366]intended for axles with spiral bevel gears operating under moderate to severe conditions of speed and load, or axles with hypoid gears operating under moderate conditions of speed
and load.[/u:8c6845b366][/color:8c6845b366] Axles equipped with limited-slip differentials have additional frictional requirements that are normally defined by the axle manufacturer.

[b:8c6845b366]4 Service Designations not in Current Use

4.1 API GL-1[/b:8c6845b366]

The designation API GL-1 denotes lubricants intended for [u:8c6845b366][color=red:8c6845b366]manual transmissions operating under such mild
conditions[/u:8c6845b366][/color:8c6845b366] that straight petroleum or refined petroleum oil may be used satisfactorily. Oxidation and rust inhibitors,
defoamers, and pour depressants may be added to improve the characteristics of these lubricants. Friction
modifiers and extreme pressure additives shall not be used.

(quoted from post at 18:24:17 09/26/16) Ok, slight tangent, but while you are here.........in the non-thactor brands, (Hy-Gard, M2C134, Permatran3, etc.) what should I look for to be sure it is compatible with wet brakes?

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In general most UTF's are designed to work in wet brake and clutch systems. But that's a quirky world. Wet brake/clutch system design is very much like synchro-mesh manual transmissions and limited slip differentials. They rely on very specific frictional performance characteristics of the oil so it's not nearly as easy to generalize. Due to their power and weight larger machines are typically more prone to exhibit problems with generics. AFAIK it's a try and see what you get experiment. When that involves 30-40 gallons of oil that can be an expensive experiment if it doesn't work out....

TOH

way too much "palaver" about oil for 60 year old machines.