So I watched a video this morning on Youtube about how to time the points on the 9N distributor. It's pretty cool that you do this at the bench. I've always read these front distributors were a pain to work on and I envisioned trying to stick one's hands in the front of the tractor with it running trying to not get killed while adjusting the timing. The on the bench work seems very straight forward. What is the pain part of the front distributor?
- Thread starter martyh
- Start date
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Is this the only tractor you've ever had?
If so, then that front mount is what it is and you deal with it.
Have you ever had another tractor?
Maybe a Case, Allis, JD, MM, Cockshutt, Farmall, Ferguson, Massey Ferguson, Oliver or a later Ford with side mount distributer - all of which were easy to change points on?
Then you know what a dumb idea it was to put the distributer in the front like that where you have to get down on your knees and worship it like it is a mechanical deity or some rediculous thing.
If so, then that front mount is what it is and you deal with it.
Have you ever had another tractor?
Maybe a Case, Allis, JD, MM, Cockshutt, Farmall, Ferguson, Massey Ferguson, Oliver or a later Ford with side mount distributer - all of which were easy to change points on?
Then you know what a dumb idea it was to put the distributer in the front like that where you have to get down on your knees and worship it like it is a mechanical deity or some rediculous thing.
No, I have a Ford 640 tractor with a side distributor. I've also worked on other things with distributors and points (2 litre Ford Pinto engine in a racing hydroplane!, Continental forklift engine, 2180CC VW in an aircraft!). At 5'6" I'm probably bending in rather than on my knees to reach that front mount distributor. Lol. But, as these tractors were way before my time (I'm 53), I do sort of worship these machines. I've always said I was born way too late. I really wish I'd had been part of the WWII generation. At one time I owned a 1946 Cessna 120 but my wife talked me into selling it. I love this old stuff! So what it boils down to, relative to machines with easier access to points, the front mount distributors are a pain. Otherwise there's nothing that crazy going on?
tracto-man
Member
People like to complain about taking them on and off. And I can certainly see why. I personally though don't really mind unhooking the 2 bolts and some wires and taking it inside where it's warm in the winter or something. That being said I have done much more work on front mount fords then anything else.
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
Yes, people do enjoy bad mouthing them, especially people who do NOT own one. However, it is nearly impossible to re-install one wrong and the side mount can be installed about 10 wrong ways and as many as 20 wrong ways in a fella finds the wrong TDC. Maybe let some fella that has found all those 20 wrong-ways and has also installed a front mount say what he thinks.
I don't know what it means because I don't understand the consistent negative comments about front mount distributors. I'm not challenging them. I haven't removed on yet. My comments are simply that it doesn't seem too crazy of a process so as long as there is not something I'm missing. I'm not dreading pulling mine out for service.
As for "aligning the dogs", I'm talking about the two offset "dogs" or "tangs" if you prefer that drive the distributor by way of the camshaft. The thing can only go on one way so other than getting them lined up, I don't see a problem unless once again I'm missing something. I'll find out soon enough as I'm going to pull mine out to do a tune up which is what prompted my question to begin with.
As for "aligning the dogs", I'm talking about the two offset "dogs" or "tangs" if you prefer that drive the distributor by way of the camshaft. The thing can only go on one way so other than getting them lined up, I don't see a problem unless once again I'm missing something. I'll find out soon enough as I'm going to pull mine out to do a tune up which is what prompted my question to begin with.
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
[i:654c4848f0]"especially people who do NOT own one"
[/i:654c4848f0]
Some people don't own them because the don't
like that distributer - among other reasons.
[i:654c4848f0]"the side mount can be installed about 10
wrong ways and as many as 20 wrong ways in a
fella finds the wrong TDC."[/i:654c4848f0]
Realistically, how often do you need to
remove distributer on a side mount?
[/i:654c4848f0]
Some people don't own them because the don't
like that distributer - among other reasons.
[i:654c4848f0]"the side mount can be installed about 10
wrong ways and as many as 20 wrong ways in a
fella finds the wrong TDC."[/i:654c4848f0]
Realistically, how often do you need to
remove distributer on a side mount?
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
OK, tnx for the clarification.
What you where saying was " removing THE DISTRIBUTOR and aligning the dogs (tabs)"
I've got 5 8N's, 4 of them w/ front distributors. No complaints from me.
The front distributor was designed to come off of the tractor to replace/adjust the points. To do this, remove the wire on the coil, remove the coil bail, remove the distributor cap & take the two bolts off. The base of the distributor has an offset tang & can only go back one way unless you really force it on.
The first thing you need to check is bushing wear. If the shaft has any sideways movement AT ALL, the bushings must be replaced. (see below)
Next, look at how the points & condenser are set in the distributor before you start pulling it down! Turn the tang & observe how the points open & close. If this is your first time doing it, draw a sketch! Make sure you are using quality points. I use only Wells, Blue Streak or Echlin brand points (* see below). Be careful not to ground the tip of the condenser wire to the body of the distributor when you replace the points. Do not break the little copper strip that go to the points. (If you do, make another out of the old set of points). Also, make sure the condenser wire does not go through the same opening in the distributor as the coil pig tail. The condenser wire goes through the opening on the top right.
Look at the old points; are they burned, pitted or misaligned? Check the point gap, .015 on all four lobes. Make sure the blade is at a perfect right angle to the points. You want to feel just the slightest bit of drag when you pull the blade through the points. Set the points on the high side of the cam and ensure they align correctly. Make sure you have the star washers under the screws on the points. If you need to replace the 8-32 X .19 fillister head screws, ensure that the new screws do not interfere with the advance weights. Dress the points by running a piece of card stock or a brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. And, don?t forget to lube the rubbing block w/ cam lube; not Vaseline, not bearing grease, but cam lube (** see below).
If you are using quality points and cannot get the gap to open to .015, chances are you need to replace the bushings.
Now, set the timing.
Get a meter or test light, a 21/64? drill bit (*** see below) & a metal straight edge. Put the distributor face down w/ the condenser on the left & the timing plate lock screw on the bottom. Look at the end of the shaft: it has a narrow side & a wide side. Make sure you can tell the difference. Now, place the drill bit in the bottom mounting hole (this will be your reference point for measuring). Next, place a straight edge on the wide side of the tang on the shaft as shown in fig. FO83 in the picture. Rotate the shaft CCW (as viewed from rotor side OR CW as viewed from back/tang side) until the straight edge is ?" beyond the outside edge of the drill bit you stuck in the distributor mounting hole. At this distance, the distributor points should start to open (get your meter/light out now & check). If not, loosen the timing plate lock screw and turn to advance or retard the timing (move the plate down to advance timing, up to retard). Remember, each one of those little hash marks represents about 4? of timing. Keep adjusting until you get the proper ?" setting. (if the plate won?t move, you might need to remove the big C clip to loosen it a bit) As you?re adjusting, eliminate backlash by turning the shaft backwards (CW as viewed from the front) and bring the shaft forward (CCW as viewed from the front) to measure your setting. This ?" setting will get you static timing at top dead center.
As you can see from the picture, this particular distributor needed to have the timing advanced by about 8? (two hash marks) to achieve the ?? measurement.
After you set the points & timing, do a continuity check before you put the distributor back on the tractor.
Before you start, make sure your meter/light works.
With the distributor still off the tractor, follow these steps:
1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.
2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.
3. Put the coil on the distributor, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!
4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!
At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit. The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil misaligned trying to put it back together, one piece at a time. The result is something gets broken or you get a ?no spark? problem.
It's possible to put it back on wrong & break it. Look at the slot on the end of the cam shaft. Whatever angle it happens to be, turn the distributor tang to match it. Make sure you can tell the wide side from the narrow side on both the cam & distributor! (close counts). Place the distributor on the front of the engine, gently push it in place & slowly turn the distributor body until you feel the tang slip into the slot. Rotate the distributor body until the bolt holes line up. Hand tighten the two bolts until the distributor body is flush with the timing gear cover.
Double-check your firing order & plug wires. It?s 1-2-4-3, counterclockwise. It?s very easy to cross 3 & 4.
And finally, do not forget to remove the distributor on an annual basis (more often, depending on use) to check the point gap and re-lube the cam.
* NAPA part numbers:
? Points: FD-6769X
? Condenser: FD-71
? Rotor: FD-104
? Cap: FD-126
** Distributor cam lube:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Result.aspx?Ntt=ECH+ML1&Ntk=Keyword&Nty=1&Dn=0&D=ECH+ML1&Dk=1&Dp=3&N=0
** Distributor cam lube
http://www.carquest.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subcategory__10151_-1_10651_11340
*** Rather than the drill bit, a jig made by Dan Allen (The Old Hokie) will make this task quicker & more accurate. http://windyridgefarm.us/
**** Unscrew the plate hold down screw & remove the C clip to get the plate out. Remove the shaft & weights. The weights should freely move.
There are three ways to replace the bushings in a front distributor:
1. Buy new bushings (part numbers 9N12120 front & 18-12132 rear). Press out the old ones, press in the new ones and ream to fit. CAUTION: do not try this unless you have a press & know how to use it. If you break the base, a new one costs $130. If you bend the tower which holds the front bushing, a new plate will cost you $30.
2. Take the new bushings and distributor to your local machine shop.
3. Send the distributor out for bushing replacement if you do not have a local machine shop.
Make sure your distributor isn?t worn out; check the wear parts with a micrometer and compare what you have to the factory specs (below).
Factory Specs:
Shaft top .4367 / .4370
Shaft Bottom .8625 / .8630
Cam Flats .789 / .791
Cam Lobes .869 / .871
Base Tang .177 / .178
75 Tips
What you where saying was " removing THE DISTRIBUTOR and aligning the dogs (tabs)"
I've got 5 8N's, 4 of them w/ front distributors. No complaints from me.
The front distributor was designed to come off of the tractor to replace/adjust the points. To do this, remove the wire on the coil, remove the coil bail, remove the distributor cap & take the two bolts off. The base of the distributor has an offset tang & can only go back one way unless you really force it on.
The first thing you need to check is bushing wear. If the shaft has any sideways movement AT ALL, the bushings must be replaced. (see below)
Next, look at how the points & condenser are set in the distributor before you start pulling it down! Turn the tang & observe how the points open & close. If this is your first time doing it, draw a sketch! Make sure you are using quality points. I use only Wells, Blue Streak or Echlin brand points (* see below). Be careful not to ground the tip of the condenser wire to the body of the distributor when you replace the points. Do not break the little copper strip that go to the points. (If you do, make another out of the old set of points). Also, make sure the condenser wire does not go through the same opening in the distributor as the coil pig tail. The condenser wire goes through the opening on the top right.
Look at the old points; are they burned, pitted or misaligned? Check the point gap, .015 on all four lobes. Make sure the blade is at a perfect right angle to the points. You want to feel just the slightest bit of drag when you pull the blade through the points. Set the points on the high side of the cam and ensure they align correctly. Make sure you have the star washers under the screws on the points. If you need to replace the 8-32 X .19 fillister head screws, ensure that the new screws do not interfere with the advance weights. Dress the points by running a piece of card stock or a brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. And, don?t forget to lube the rubbing block w/ cam lube; not Vaseline, not bearing grease, but cam lube (** see below).
If you are using quality points and cannot get the gap to open to .015, chances are you need to replace the bushings.
Now, set the timing.
Get a meter or test light, a 21/64? drill bit (*** see below) & a metal straight edge. Put the distributor face down w/ the condenser on the left & the timing plate lock screw on the bottom. Look at the end of the shaft: it has a narrow side & a wide side. Make sure you can tell the difference. Now, place the drill bit in the bottom mounting hole (this will be your reference point for measuring). Next, place a straight edge on the wide side of the tang on the shaft as shown in fig. FO83 in the picture. Rotate the shaft CCW (as viewed from rotor side OR CW as viewed from back/tang side) until the straight edge is ?" beyond the outside edge of the drill bit you stuck in the distributor mounting hole. At this distance, the distributor points should start to open (get your meter/light out now & check). If not, loosen the timing plate lock screw and turn to advance or retard the timing (move the plate down to advance timing, up to retard). Remember, each one of those little hash marks represents about 4? of timing. Keep adjusting until you get the proper ?" setting. (if the plate won?t move, you might need to remove the big C clip to loosen it a bit) As you?re adjusting, eliminate backlash by turning the shaft backwards (CW as viewed from the front) and bring the shaft forward (CCW as viewed from the front) to measure your setting. This ?" setting will get you static timing at top dead center.
As you can see from the picture, this particular distributor needed to have the timing advanced by about 8? (two hash marks) to achieve the ?? measurement.
After you set the points & timing, do a continuity check before you put the distributor back on the tractor.
Before you start, make sure your meter/light works.
With the distributor still off the tractor, follow these steps:
1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.
2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.
3. Put the coil on the distributor, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!
4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!
At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit. The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil misaligned trying to put it back together, one piece at a time. The result is something gets broken or you get a ?no spark? problem.
It's possible to put it back on wrong & break it. Look at the slot on the end of the cam shaft. Whatever angle it happens to be, turn the distributor tang to match it. Make sure you can tell the wide side from the narrow side on both the cam & distributor! (close counts). Place the distributor on the front of the engine, gently push it in place & slowly turn the distributor body until you feel the tang slip into the slot. Rotate the distributor body until the bolt holes line up. Hand tighten the two bolts until the distributor body is flush with the timing gear cover.
Double-check your firing order & plug wires. It?s 1-2-4-3, counterclockwise. It?s very easy to cross 3 & 4.
And finally, do not forget to remove the distributor on an annual basis (more often, depending on use) to check the point gap and re-lube the cam.
* NAPA part numbers:
? Points: FD-6769X
? Condenser: FD-71
? Rotor: FD-104
? Cap: FD-126
** Distributor cam lube:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Result.aspx?Ntt=ECH+ML1&Ntk=Keyword&Nty=1&Dn=0&D=ECH+ML1&Dk=1&Dp=3&N=0
** Distributor cam lube
http://www.carquest.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subcategory__10151_-1_10651_11340
*** Rather than the drill bit, a jig made by Dan Allen (The Old Hokie) will make this task quicker & more accurate. http://windyridgefarm.us/
**** Unscrew the plate hold down screw & remove the C clip to get the plate out. Remove the shaft & weights. The weights should freely move.
There are three ways to replace the bushings in a front distributor:
1. Buy new bushings (part numbers 9N12120 front & 18-12132 rear). Press out the old ones, press in the new ones and ream to fit. CAUTION: do not try this unless you have a press & know how to use it. If you break the base, a new one costs $130. If you bend the tower which holds the front bushing, a new plate will cost you $30.
2. Take the new bushings and distributor to your local machine shop.
3. Send the distributor out for bushing replacement if you do not have a local machine shop.
Make sure your distributor isn?t worn out; check the wear parts with a micrometer and compare what you have to the factory specs (below).
Factory Specs:
Shaft top .4367 / .4370
Shaft Bottom .8625 / .8630
Cam Flats .789 / .791
Cam Lobes .869 / .871
Base Tang .177 / .178
75 Tips
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Ps,
And even with new gaskets in one they love to short out your sparkies if you're plowing snow. Fine snow sifts through the radiator and melts onto the hot engine.
And in damp climates, when you have to wipe the "invisible corrosion" out of your points, a simple task becomes far more involved than on a side mount.
And even with new gaskets in one they love to short out your sparkies if you're plowing snow. Fine snow sifts through the radiator and melts onto the hot engine.
And in damp climates, when you have to wipe the "invisible corrosion" out of your points, a simple task becomes far more involved than on a side mount.
NoNewParts
Member
typed up a long response...then deleted it.
easier just to say.....
You now own both styles. Put both tractors to work, and come back next year at this time, and tell us which ignition design is better..........
easier just to say.....
You now own both styles. Put both tractors to work, and come back next year at this time, and tell us which ignition design is better..........
Lol. Yep, you can remind me of this conversation if I come back in a few weeks bemoaning the front distributor. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment however as I'm going to rewire the tractor and go back to a 6V system for authenticity. In the short term I'm changing the fluids, doing a little service work and planning to run it for a bit to see what else crops up that needs attention before I get too deep into elective work.
do have both styles of 8Ns & no need to wait a year, just report on the previous several years where I haven't needed to mess with the distributors or points on either one.....they just start & run, mowing, grading, drilling post holes, plowing, discing, etc. If all I needed to do was points, sure I would rather do it on the later one, but if I needed to work on the advance or bushings, it is hands down easier on the older front distributor. Neither trouble some of us.
Like Bruce, I have both front and side distributor Fords. I find that with regular use either are dependable. I have several tractors that sit for long periods of time and with those corrosion of points is a problem. As far as removing the distributor, it can be done in a few minutes. Noting which way the rotor is pointing before you remove it makes lining up the tangs for installing it much easier.
tractorguy2
Well-known Member
Back in the 40's and 50's dad and grandpa farmed with Fords. They had a used 46 2n and a brand new 52 8n. Dad has said many times the front mount on the 2n caused much less trouble than the side mount on the 8n.
People don't like front mounts because they think it is too much trouble to remove the distributor to service it.
I have a 1940 9n. I bought in 99. First thing I did to it was pressure wash it. Afterwards I started it and it ran for a second and died. After it dried out it started and ran fine. I replaced the wires,points,condenser,rotor, and installed a new gasket set. Never had a problem again. Not even after pressure washing it. I did not touch that distributor again for 13 years when I replaced the points and the gaskets. It was still starting and running fine. I just thought after 13 years I got my money's worth.
Dad has a 641 and a 62 4000 RC. A friend has a 51 8n that I service. I prefer the front mount over the side mount.
I also own tractors with magnetos. It is not any more difficult to remove a front mount than it is to remove a magneto.If anything the front mount is easier because it only goes on one way unless you really force it!
People don't like front mounts because they think it is too much trouble to remove the distributor to service it.
I have a 1940 9n. I bought in 99. First thing I did to it was pressure wash it. Afterwards I started it and it ran for a second and died. After it dried out it started and ran fine. I replaced the wires,points,condenser,rotor, and installed a new gasket set. Never had a problem again. Not even after pressure washing it. I did not touch that distributor again for 13 years when I replaced the points and the gaskets. It was still starting and running fine. I just thought after 13 years I got my money's worth.
Dad has a 641 and a 62 4000 RC. A friend has a 51 8n that I service. I prefer the front mount over the side mount.
I also own tractors with magnetos. It is not any more difficult to remove a front mount than it is to remove a magneto.If anything the front mount is easier because it only goes on one way unless you really force it!
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Some interesting replies here.
Thinking about this thread over night I have to accept something about human nature.
People don't like it when you criticize an icon.
I guess if you are emotionally and financially invested in a thing you don't like someone pointing out it's shortcomings, even if the criticism is deserved.
So I'll just admit that I was wrong and concede that front mounts are the best distributer design to ever have been invented.
And every day is a holiday and every meal a banquet.
Wink
Thinking about this thread over night I have to accept something about human nature.
People don't like it when you criticize an icon.
I guess if you are emotionally and financially invested in a thing you don't like someone pointing out it's shortcomings, even if the criticism is deserved.
So I'll just admit that I was wrong and concede that front mounts are the best distributer design to ever have been invented.
And every day is a holiday and every meal a banquet.
Wink
....and maybe you don't like your criticism being criticized. Lol. I am going to be pulling my front mount out for service in the next couple weeks so I'll know first hand then how I feel about that design. Based on our conversation here, I think it's going to be fine. I had it in my head that somehow one was expected to reach in there while the engine was running to time the distributor. I'd be all over that bad idea. Lol.
flembo
Well-known Member
As good ole Dell always say's it's a 15 min 2 bolt job just unsnaple the caple an letter dangle. Although I have never been able to do it in 15 min. and I prefer to remove the entire thing, but it is pretty simple. I think if I ever buy another 8n I would look for a later model though, I had a 52 8n and I liked it, probably because all other vehicles I ever worked on had similar distributers. That said front mounts are ok, nothing to be worried about.
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