More 2N Teardown Photos. Took the Head Off

So, I already know that the intake valve on the #2 Cylinder had its keepers fall out of the spring. I figure that it should at least have new valves and hardware. So, I took the head off to see how the pistons/sleeves look. The sleeves look smooth. The only thing that I can see are a couple of tiny pits in the #1 sleeve, but they're so far up towards the top, that I think they're above where the rings travel. I don't know how they got there, but I'm thinking that they don't affect anything. Anybody care to look at the various deposits and tell me if they tell you anything? There were massive grayish-white deposits around the valves in cylinders 3 and 4. Piston #3 had a thick layer of black crud crusted on top of it.

I thought that I detected an ever so slight hint of antifreeze around the valves on #1. I did drain the radiator before working on the tractor, and the upper radiator hose was dry, but maybe it's just a little bit that was sitting there and leaked when I removed the head. Not sure.

Head gasket looked OK. I didn't see any gaps in it.

On another note, removing the head bolts/nuts was sort of like Russian roulette. The nuts came off of some cleanly. With others, the nut had more friction than the stud in the block, and the stud came out instead. Is this common?

Some experienced (or even inexperienced ...) opinions would be welcomed. Thanks for taking a look.

Chris

Way too much carbon deposits. I would remove pistons and mike the bores and pistons. Re ring at the least. Mission creep has set in.

Mission creep is a fact of life

So, educate me. The carbon deposits gave you a clue that....what? Oil is getting by the rings and baking onto the top of the piston?

If micrometer readings pan out, and it's strictly a ring issue, what do I use to clean off the pistons? Oven cleaner?

Are the carbon deposits on the pistons related to the white/gray deposits near the valves...same pollutant...just different baking temperature due to difference in distance from the spark plug?

It's not running clean, that's for sure. If you are
feeling good about those sleeves use a ball hone on
the cylinders and rering it.

I can say that I've never just done rings in an
engine. If I am that far I just do it all.

I agree with that philosophy overall. It's usually more expensive to get to these "deep" parts, than to buy them.

I am, however, modifying that a little with this tractor. It seems to me that, even though I'm taking my sweet time with this, due to other distractions, it's not all that hard to get to the core of these little engines.

I need to sit down and look at part prices, though...so I have some better information to weigh time vs money.

(quoted from post at 09:02:59 05/31/16)
Mission creep is a fact of life

So, educate me. The carbon deposits gave you a clue that....what? Oil is getting by the rings and baking onto the top of the piston?

Click to expand...

That much carbon build up is a sign that the oil rings are bad or the cylinder is worn oversize. cylinders will wear egg shaped and be of different diameter from top to bottom. FO4 talks about checking them. Oven cleaner would probably work but the lst ones i did i used a putty knife. Pistons will also wear and might need to be replaced.

I would be looking at how much ring ridge
you have at the top of your bores. Depending
on how much there is you might get by with
reaming the ridge and new rings.
A micrometer and snap gauge will tell you a
lot about the bores if you know how to use
them accurately. I use an angle grinder with
a wire wheel to remove all the carbon
deposits - valves, deck, head, head, etc.
Works good - fast and easy.
I also use the same grinder/wire wheel to
remove glued on gaskets.
If you don't mind... I'll offer a bit of
unsolicited advice here.
This crowd has no qualms about leading you
down the path of a full rebuild on that
engine. I have seen it at least a thousand
times here. A guy gets ahold of an old N
that smokes a little or has a bad valve like
yours and the next thing he has the head off
of it and is asking for advice here.
Next thing you know it's in the machine shop
for pistons, sleeves, valves, crank grind,
line bore and deck the block, plus whatever
else they can hook you for.
And he gets it back (along with a $1500
bill) and is real proud of himself.
Then as they say, mission creep takes over
and the next thing you know he's off
restoring it and $2500 lighter in the
pocket.
Add to that the price he paid originally and
he has what?
A tractor with no live hydraulics, no live
pto, no power steering and on a 8/2N not
even position control or a real drawbar -
that is worth about $2500 - maybe.
Of course he justifies it by saying it's the
only tractor he'll ever need and he's
keeping it forever and handing if off to the
Grand kids when he's gone.
Which is all well and good of course, except
he could have used and handed off a Jubilee
or 600, 800 or 2000, 3000, 4000 (with lots
more features) to the kids instead - for
about the same "investment" he has in that
N.
Most of these tractors don't get used but
100 hours a year or less. And a set of
rings, rod bearings and a valve lap will buy
you a dozen years of use out of the tractor.
And you won't be into it for so much that
you can't sell it off for a better model
which you would love as much as that N.
But this is getting a bit wordy. Sorry.
It's your money of course but I suggest you
Think long hard before you go down this
primrose path of a full rebuild. Because
pound for pound it is Not money well spent.

Ultradog, I appreciate your point of view.

There is a balancing act going on in my mind. People that know me know that I'm not averse to a little cowboy engineering that will just make something work.

I have solid proof (a set of keepers laying in the engine) that the valve hardware is worn. The only reason that I wouldn't just put another set of keepers on and run it is that there must be a reason the keepers squeezed out...and all new valve hardware is cheap.

The pistons and sleeves don't look that bad, except for those deposits.

There are many reasons for those deposits that don't have to do with the actual pistons and sleeves. One of those reasons could be the spoons full of ATF that I put in the cylinders last fall to try to loosen up the valves.

The rings could also have taken a set from sitting around too much before I got the tractor.

I'm not looking to make an heirloom, but just having a machine that can pull a rake or a wagon with a simple, wide open operating platform is useful.

Things run just a little more smoothly on our little farm when the 2N is going, and I bought it for what the sales tax would be on a new tractor with a similar working weight and horsepower.

New tractors need repairs too. Just had a friend put $1600 into front wheel drive gears for his John Deere 850....I won't have that much into purchase and repair of my entire tractor.

It's worth a little bit of time and money to get it running 90% vs...say 75%...

If getting that last 10% of performance costs a fortune, sure, I'm willing to let it ride.

http://www.motorcycleinfo.co.uk/res...FAQs/electrics/check_spark_plug_condition.jpg

I like your thinking.
The part about it not costing as much as the
sales tax on a new one is very apt.
How was the oil pressure in the engine?
One new valve and a set of keepers, lap the
valves, rings, rod bearings and gaskets
wouldn't cost much.
Just offering my point of view.
They are great, fun, little machines that
will still do a lot of useful work.

(quoted from post at 13:06:17 05/31/16)
http://www.motorcycleinfo.co.uk/res...FAQs/electrics/check_spark_plug_condition.jpg

Click to expand...

Thanks,

Sadly, new plugs were one of the first things that I did to the tractor. They're quick and cheap. I had an extra set around for flooding.

I do remember that #3 looked maybe a little oily way back when I pulled the plugs out that came with the tractor.

Oil pressure wasn't terrible. I did a compression test last fall. #3 had nothing (nada...zero), until I wet tested it. #3 came way, way up...well over 100PSI after a few cranks wet. I figure that it may have had a couple of issues, a stuck valve and maybe setup rings. I put a lot of ATF into that spark plug hole and turned it over a lot with just my thumb in the hole. When it started acting better, I let it ride for the winter.

It was already running a little sub par all winter, but the keepers popping on #2's intake valve probably put the nail in the coffin.

I'm also wondering if the pistons can wear asymmetrically. Perhaps, depending on measurements and observations, I'll find that #3 is indeed just way more crappy than the rest.

Does not matter you can go by the deposits on the valves... If it were ATF why is it not oily in all cylinders... No doubt its using a considerable amount of oil how you go about your repair is your call... You needed the valves anyways all you are losing is a head gasket if you decide to go for the kill later...

I agree with snap gauge and mic (unless you have a bore gauge) and only replace what's not right.
My mission creep went from replacing a dropped sleeve with a broke 4 groove piston/rings to all sleeves and 3 groove pistons/rings.
Upon removing rod from crank the bearing was shot as crank was grooved (explained low oil pressure!) thus need to turn crank.
Removal of timing cover to remove crank showed a chunk of the cover was gone.
Rod nuts looked like someone removed them with pliers at some point and threads were buggered up so replace them.
Wire wheeled valves and seats and lapped them back in.
Cleaned it out with oven cleaner and final cleaning with windex.
Went from a $100 repair to over $800.

Close. The chalky appearance on the exhaust valves is from the exhaust valves burning the carbon at a higher temperature due to hot exhaust valves "cooking" the carbon. Exhaust valves run significantly hotter due to exhaust heat flowing past them when open. If it were me, and compression numbers were reasonable,(The really low number could have been a stuck valve) and oil pressure was good I would be leaning towards honing the cylinders at BDC with a bead hone, cleaning them out, oiling them up and find a place to work it pretty good. Fresh oil before the workout. In my opinion, if you're going to get serious get it done right.

Pull one piston and remove a top ring . reinstall that piston and rotate the motor until the piston is all the way down . put the ring you removed in the cylinder and move it all of the way down until it is sitting flat on top of the piston . rotate the motor to move that piston up about 1/4" then back to the bottom . now take your feeler gauge index and measure the gap on the ring . repeat this process moving up the cylinder wall about every half inch and be careful of the ridge on the top of the cylinder snagging the ring . repeat on all of the cylinders making sure the ring stays square . this will give you an idea on how worn your sleeves really are if you do not have access to more expensive tools .

Hobo. Good question. If it was the ATF, there would be a good reason for why only cylinders 3 and 4...especially 3. They were the only two cylinders that didn't compression test well.

Cylinders 1 and 2 tested fine, so I didn't put any ATF in those
cylinders.

That's a nifty way to check for wear....I like it.