Working on 2N over the phone today

Tom N MS

Well-known Member
ad's 2N won't spin over with the starter--New battery checks 6 volts-says he cleaned battery cable ends real good before connecting to new battery--only connection he has not removed and cleaned is the ground(braided cable--will do that tomorrow morning when I go to see if I can get it going..He decided to replace the starter cable so in doing so he has cleaned and made sure the cable connection at the starter is good..I'm beginning to think that the starter drive may be hung in the flywheel gear or broken connection inside the starter-Oh and he decided to replace the starter switch today too..What am I missing..Going to loosen the starter and wiggle it around to try to free the drive in case it is stuck and will ckean the mating surfaces where the starter bolts up...any other thoughts? Thanks
 
(quoted from post at 20:30:40 05/13/16) ad's 2N won't spin over with the starter--New battery checks 6 volts-says he cleaned battery cable ends real good before connecting to new battery--only connection he has not removed and cleaned is the ground(braided cable--will do that tomorrow morning when I go to see if I can get it going..He decided to replace the starter cable so in doing so he has cleaned and made sure the cable connection at the starter is good..I'm beginning to think that the starter drive may be hung in the flywheel gear or broken connection inside the starter-Oh and he decided to replace the starter switch today too..What am I missing..Going to loosen the starter and wiggle it around to try to free the drive in case it is stuck and will ckean the mating surfaces where the starter bolts up...any other thoughts? Thanks

Tom;
Have him remove the starter, and clean the mating sufaces of all paint and rust. Must be clean, and shiny!!!!!
That is the major ground from starter to engine block!!!!!

Just thinkin', outloud!!
:lol:

Gary
 

Why waist the time unless it makes you look smart... Voltage drop test the system... Well you will need a good battery and that's the FIRST damm place to start confirm battery condition...
 
(quoted from post at 20:22:20 05/13/16)
Why waist the time unless it makes you look smart... Voltage drop test the system... Well you will need a good battery and that's the FIRST damm place to start confirm battery condition...

I wonder how many on here know what the heck a Voltage drop test is. LOL
 
Can the old one be checked with a meter--I doubt that the old one is bad but once he has started changing parts new questions are introduced..
 
Typical run of the mill solenoids energize the starter when voltage is supplied by the starter switch. The correct solenoid energizes the starter when the start terminal is grounded by the starter switch.
 
Meant to sat typical solenoid energizes when voltage applied to start terminal on solenoid. Correct solenoid energizes when starter switch grounds.
 
(quoted from post at 22:30:40 05/13/16) I'm beginning to think that the starter drive may be hung in the flywheel gear

i'm guessing i don't need to suggest rocking the tractor in gear with the rear tire and then trying to start it again, right? :)
 
Tried but with bushhog on tractor could not budge it..Loosened the starter and jiggled it
around---Drive was not stuck..Cleaned all connections--removed new starter switch and
tested with meter-checked good. Took new battery back to AZ and under load it tested
bad..They will have another one available for pick up today..tried to do the motoring test
on the starter and no spin--it will go to the shop Monday..
 
Actually the 2N has no solenoid-just has the starter push button switch that is mechanically pushed when u push the start button by the shift lever..
 
The 2N has no solenoid as such-has just the starter switch which is mechanically pushed
when the starter button by the shift lever is pushed..
 

"Tried but with bushhog on tractor could not budge it"

ah, i never think of this scenario. i hooked my bush hog up to the N - once. it's an ancient howse, it's made out of like half inch plate of a lead-steel alloy. it picked the nose of the N up off the ground, and that was enough of a hint for me. it now is used with the tractor whose brand i've learned should never be mentioned here ;)

i've always been able to rock the tractor with the finish mower on it.
 

Bad bat whoo'da thunk it... A voltmeter sure would have come in handy... Reminds me of how useless a in dash factor amp meter izz...
 
Had checked it with a meter and had checked it-showedless than 6 volts so that's why I
wanted it load tested..anybody who has ever tested a battery with a meter knows you can be
showing good voltage and still have a bad battery--had same thing on a motorcycle battery
last week.
 
Bushhog front is on the ground-aint gonna strain my guts out trying to rock itDad said he
had tried and couldn't-that was good enough for me-anyway starter wasn't stuck.
 
Now gotta work on mine-went to start it a little while ago just to let it run a little and
it never hit a lick--still kick myself Daily for not buying a new Kubota several yrs ago
before they jacked up the prices ridiculously...
 

anybody who has ever tested a battery with a meter knows you can be
showing good voltage and still have a bad battery--had same thing on a motorcycle battery
last week.

Not true at all... But keep rubbing on it you mite get lucky...
 

When you load test a bat a Voltmeter is used its part of the deal...
I am gonna make a WAG (not that I need to) you are checking state of charge in a static mode... What you are seeing is a surface charge...

Surface Charge

Lead acid batteries are sluggish and cannot convert lead sulfate to lead and lead dioxide quickly during charge. This delayed action causes most of the charge activities to occur on the plate surfaces, resulting in an elevated state-of-charge (SoC) on the outside.

A battery with surface charge has a slightly elevated voltage and gives a false voltage-based SoC reading. To normalize the condition, switch on electrical loads to remove about 1 percent of the battery’s capacity or allow the battery to rest for a few hours. Turning on the headlights for a few minutes will do this. Surface charge is not a battery defect but a reversible condition.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/water_loss_acid_stratification_and_surface_charge

Lets go here.

https://www.pacificpowerbatteries.com/aboutbatts/Car Battery FAQ/carfaq4.html

Notice near the bottom of the page

4.4. MEASURE THE STATE-OF-CHARGE Do you see a voltage reading Woo'da thunk it...

Drop down to

4.5.2. Disable the ignition and turn the engine over for 15 seconds with the starter motor.

Most don't have a load tester but they do but don't know it... Use the starter motor and all the other loads you can apply (headlights blower on hi etc) Crank the engine if it stays above 9.6V you have a good bat if it falls below 9.6 to 9V you have a undercharged bat are a border line bat...

IF it FALLS below 9V and is fully charged call the family in its dying...

This red neck shadtree as it gets but will catch a bad bat but will pass a borderline bat... This mainly because you do not have the ability to load the bat enoufh to bring it to its knees...

You tell me what the 6V numbers should be...
 
Thanks Hobo-lots of info-will have to study it more to understand some of it..Sounds like
exactly what I have seen several times over the years-had no idea it was reversible..thanks
again..
 


I understand its hard to get a handle on when the only time you are confronted with this situation it won't crank are is a slow to crank.

You are anyone else can start building a data base and practice on a good one. A DVOM with a Min/Max function will come in handy...

It would be interesting to see what folks would gather and post to build a data base. When I am confronted with a issue and the bat does not pass I STOP there I am not going to chase my tail till the bat issue is taken care of..

One I worked on last week...

I have seen this twice both times on a late 90's Chrysler and it did no damage to the wiring are associated electrical system... The first time was about 8 years ago the second time was today. A gal drives up for a appointment and tells me it may not start she has been jumping it off. Of course this is not the original complaint she tells me to repair the turn signals, look at the HVAC controls the lights are blinking and look at why it eats a belt up ever 30 days. I pull it up to the door shut it off and sure as ell the bat is grave yard dead. I tell her I have to have a good battery in it and its has to start are I am not gonna work on it. I am standing there look'n and see the cables are crossed :shock: She tells me she put the bat in but could not get the cable ends to tighten up and it did make a BIG SPARK :lol:

Long story short I tell her to go get a bat I would not install one of mine and would not touch it with my equipment till a new bat was installed. She drops off a bat I install it and nuttin is damaged all is well...

The moral of the story is you can not efficiently work around a bad are undercharged bat. Learn how to diagnosis it confirm it. Life will be good you will save yourself a lot of headaches...

That's one reason I try not to participate in NO starts won't crank are charging system issues you can not gather needed information from the poster. The folks that are trying to help throw curve balls at them and overlook the starting charging system when it should be the first question resolved... When I work on either system they BOTH get diagnosed it becomes second nature and confirms a KILL....

That is one reason I am a die-hard killer of amp meters and replace them with a voltmeter. A voltmeter offers info I can use when faced with a no start no crank condition its info I can see. I dunno about anyone else but when the system talks to me I believe it till I can prove it wrong...
 
Here is what happened--battery was bad so he started swapping parts..Cable to starter did need replaced but he replaced it with a smaller cable..starter checked good--starter man made him a big diameter cable and it is now cranking and running again..
 

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