Hose sizes for live hydraulic setup?

Any suggestions on hose sizes for a DIY live hydraulic setup? I'd like to keep them as small as possible so they are not too conspicuous. I've looked it up in a few charts and nomograms and they don't seem to agree.

Oh, its a basic 2 gpm@2000 rpm pump.
 
"2 gpm@2000 rpm pump"

You've left out some important info... at what speed will you be running it?

If at only 2000 RPM, the 2 GPM you get won't do much.

And, at the same time, @ 2 GPM's I'm pretty sure you could get by with 1/2 suction and 1/4" discharge.
 

Kyle;

The detailed calcs require the following:

GPM and Pressure - what is the pressure at the pump?

I am assuming that MAX Rpm will be 2250? (Redline for the Motor?)

So your GPM is 2 * 2250/2000 or are you putting on smaller / larger pulleys?

But for round #'s using 1500 PSI and 2 GPM, I think the guys are right, 1/2 suction and 1/4 output are about the smallest you can go. 1/2 is probably gonna cavitate, but 1/4" output should be fine, at least if your just planning on deadheading it to a cylinder (lift or otherwise.) if your gonna try and run somethign (any kind of motor) not so much.
 
(quoted from post at 15:53:36 02/10/16) Any suggestions on hose sizes for a DIY live hydraulic setup? I'd like to keep them as small as possible so they are not too conspicuous. I've looked it up in a few charts and nomograms and they don't seem to agree.

Oh, its a basic 2 gpm@2000 rpm pump.

What Bob and Mark said. I use 1/2" suction and 1/4" pressure on my systems and that is more than adequate.

TOH
 
Glad I asked - both are one notch smaller than I was inclining towards using going by the charts. And I even have a piece of 1/2" hose somewhere.

Oh and it took about 7 minutes to get an answer to my question, almost instantaneous.
 
(quoted from post at 16:22:52 02/10/16)
Kyle;

The detailed calcs require the following:

GPM and Pressure - what is the pressure at the pump?

I am assuming that MAX Rpm will be 2250? (Redline for the Motor?)

So your GPM is 2 * 2250/2000 or are you putting on smaller / larger pulleys?

But for round #'s using 1500 PSI and 2 GPM, I think the guys are right, 1/2 suction and 1/4 output are about the smallest you can go. 1/2 is probably gonna cavitate, but 1/4" output should be fine, at least if your just planning on deadheading it to a cylinder (lift or otherwise.) if your gonna try and run somethign (any kind of motor) not so much.

The pump is being used for a live hydraulics conversion and is feeding the 3pt lift circuit on the tractor. In that application well over 90% of the operation is at a system pressure close to zero. Maximum pressure is controlled by the internal over pressure relief which is 1500-1600 PSI. Working pressure is short duration (2-3 seconds) and varies depending on the amount of weight on the 3pt but is typically much lower than 1500 PSI.

I have built dozens of these conversions so I am speaking from experience not guessing. A quarter inch pressure hose is more than adequate. If you use UTF there won't be any cavitation problems with a 1/2" suction line. If you insist on sticking with SAE 90 gear oil there will most definitely be a problem at just about any size when the oil is cold.

TOH
 

I'm deferring to Hokie. He's forgotten more about this stuff than I've learned.

I'm used to doing the calcs on hydraulics controls equipment, thus the questions...
 
(quoted from post at 01:53:36 02/11/16) Any suggestions on hose sizes for a DIY live hydraulic setup? I'd like to keep them as small as possible so they are not too conspicuous. I've looked it up in a few charts and nomograms and they don't seem to agree.

Oh, its a basic 2 gpm@2000 rpm pump.

I built one and used 3/8" for the pressure. Add a check valve while you are at it to keep the lift from leaking back thru the pump when it not running :wink:
 
(quoted from post at 20:53:36 02/10/16) Any suggestions on hose sizes for a DIY live hydraulic setup? I'd like to keep them as small as possible so they are not too conspicuous. I've looked it up in a few charts and nomograms and they don't seem to agree.

Oh, its a basic 2 gpm@2000 rpm pump.

I have 3/4" suction and 1/2" pressure hoses on both of my N-Tractors, using synthetic M2C134D fluid. Both of my belt-driven pumps will squeal at anything above slow idle when the fluid temp is below freezing. My pumps are 0.129 and 0.194 cu.in. Barnes/Haldex. I've tried different suction strainers or none at all with some improvement. Moving my suction line fitting further forward (shorter hose and drawing fluid from the same place the return ends up) would probably help more than anything else.
KL
 
(quoted from post at 13:43:32 02/11/16)
(quoted from post at 20:53:36 02/10/16) Any suggestions on hose sizes for a DIY live hydraulic setup? I'd like to keep them as small as possible so they are not too conspicuous. I've looked it up in a few charts and nomograms and they don't seem to agree.

Oh, its a basic 2 gpm@2000 rpm pump.

I have 3/4" suction and 1/2" pressure hoses on both of my N-Tractors, using synthetic M2C134D fluid. Both of my belt-driven pumps will squeal at anything above slow idle when the fluid temp is below freezing. My pumps are 0.129 and 0.194 cu.in. Barnes/Haldex. I've tried different suction strainers or none at all with some improvement. Moving my suction line fitting further forward (shorter hose and drawing fluid from the same place the return ends up) would probably help more than anything else.
KL

With that combination it's surely not hose size or oil related. My guess would be squeal from the fan belt slipping. When I first started thinking about how to drive the pump slip under load was one of the prime complaints I heard from folks with fan belt driven pumps. The other was leakdown through the external pump when the tractor engine was stopped. I think a synchronous drive belt and a pressure side check valve took care of both of them ;-)

TOH
 
I do have check valves on both tractors, and the belts are tight. I agree completely, at this flow rate, this isn't a hose size problem. The 3/4" hose is already oversize. I believe the most likely cause is sucking fluid from the rear pumpkin faster than it can flow back there from the pump housing. One of your special fittings for the pump drain plug would be the best fix for that. Wish I could get inside and watch what it is really happening in there. The pump noise goes away completely at any RPM as soon as there is any warmth in the fluid.
KL
 
(quoted from post at 16:27:55 02/11/16) I do have check valves on both tractors, and the belts are tight. I agree completely, at this flow rate, this isn't a hose size problem. The 3/4" hose is already oversize. I believe the most likely cause is sucking fluid from the rear pumpkin faster than it can flow back there from the pump housing. One of your special fittings for the pump drain plug would be the best fix for that. Wish I could get inside and watch what it is really happening in there. The pump noise goes away completely at any RPM as soon as there is any warmth in the fluid.
KL

That answers one of my unasked questions - you are using the differential drain plug for the oil supply port.

I suppose it could be a flow imbalance problem but I have never heard anyone else using that port talk about it. I went and looked at the pictures on your website and you have excellent belt geometry with plenty of wrap on the pump pulley which should solve the slippage problem others have had. I have plenty of the pump drain adapters and they aren't expensive ;-)

TOH
 
I'll send you an email later to get two of the pump drain adapters on the way. It's something I've wanted to do for a long time, just been alternating between busy and lazy. The belt geometry with my side distributor bracket is nearly square. I'm a little less happy with my pump location on the front distributor engines, especially with the nearly random mix of alternator adapters out there. If the alternator gets too high, it's darn near impossible not to lose grip on the water pump pulley.
KL
 
(quoted from post at 17:45:09 02/11/16) I It's something I've wanted to do for a long time, just been alternating between busy and lazy.
KL

Now that situation I know well ;-)

Just FYI when I decided to add a remote circuit and return excess flow via the transmission I realized there was a real problem with fluid imbalance. The sumps are common but not closely connected and it takea while for the oil to move between them. That's why I have pickups on both the transmission and pump drains and I tee them together externally. It keeps the two sumps at the same oil level. You may well be sucking the differential dry if the oil is too thick to migrate fast enough to keep up with the pump.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 02:44:14 02/12/16)
(quoted from post at 16:27:55 02/11/16) I do have check valves on both tractors, and the belts are tight. I agree completely, at this flow rate, this isn't a hose size problem. The 3/4" hose is already oversize. I believe the most likely cause is sucking fluid from the rear pumpkin faster than it can flow back there from the pump housing. One of your special fittings for the pump drain plug would be the best fix for that. Wish I could get inside and watch what it is really happening in there. The pump noise goes away completely at any RPM as soon as there is any warmth in the fluid.
KL

That answers one of my unasked questions - you are using the differential drain plug for the oil supply port.

I suppose it could be a flow imbalance problem but I have never heard anyone else using that port talk about it. I went and looked at the pictures on your website and you have excellent belt geometry with plenty of wrap on the pump pulley which should solve the slippage problem others have had. I have plenty of the pump drain adapters and they aren't expensive ;-)

TOH

I have not seen his pix his slippage may not be at the pump. I batted slippage issues with Zane's set up it was not a issue at the pump. I had to change the belt out every few years and keep it tight. The guy I sold it to added a idler to the belt set up on the right side that improved belt contact around the crank pulley a little more it helped it allot... He needs to add another idler on the left side I think that will whoop that issue.

Those Green belts from napa worked the best.
http://www.napabeltshose.com/belt-drive-systems/farm-and-ag-belts
 
Hobo I have one of the first live hydraulic units on my 52 8N. That has been about 10 or 12 years by my guessing. The same belt is on it that I put on
it when I first came up with the idea for live hydraulics. I probably don't put may hours on it though since I have a 660 that I do most of my tractor
work with. Used to use the 8n a lot with a finish mower but not anymore. I bought a Zero turn Cub Cadet that I do my grass cutting with now and the 8N
just mostly sits there looking pretty.

Zane
 
(quoted from post at 07:57:11 02/13/16) Hobo I have one of the first live hydraulic units on my 52 8N. That has been about 10 or 12 years by my guessing. The same belt is on it that I put on
it when I first came up with the idea for live hydraulics. I probably don't put may hours on it though since I have a 660 that I do most of my tractor
work with. Used to use the 8n a lot with a finish mower but not anymore. I bought a Zero turn Cub Cadet that I do my grass cutting with now and the 8N
just mostly sits there looking pretty.

Zane

My issue was not with the pump are your set up that you made for a side mount distributor to use with the original generator. I trash all 6V systems and install a alternator that your set up is not friendly to on a side mount with a alternator....

On a front mount gen are alt it would not make a difference but a side mount with a alt is a different story.
 
That's odd. I just braved the cold temps and looked at my front and side distributor tractors. The 52 has a generator, but I've test-fit alternators on that engine many times. None of the alternator adapters I've made for front or side distributor engines move the alternator pulley far enough to even have to use a different length belt. Adding a hydraulic pump above the generator or alternator on the side distributor engine does not move the alternator or generator from the original location. Adding a hyd pump on the front dist engine is most likely going to put the pump within an inch or two of where the alternator / generator is on the 52. There really isn't any place else it can be. There are no crank pulley geometry issues on these setups that don't already exist on the original engines.
KL
 

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