OT --I'm not an electrician

Tom N MS

Well-known Member
110v feeding pump house with freezer in it--had to disconnect wires on fascia board to re-
attach insulator to fascia----with help of 50 coats of paint when re attaching the wires I
connected the ground to the white or black wire(not sure which) --- did not kick breaker
when turned back on but did immediately blow the light bulb in the pump house..Light was on
on the freezer as if all was ok--BUT knew I had a problrm because of the bulb
blowing...disconnected the wires-straightened out ny booboo and all was fine--now two weeks
later the freezer goes out00was it due to my mistake--might have stayed connected wrong 2-3
minutes..inside walls of freezer are pretty cool like it is working Some...any hope for
this thing other than a minnow tank?? Thanks for any thoughts..
 
i'm not an electrician either, but i do play one on TV ;)

this is confusing to me. if u hook white and ground together, there should be no serious consequences, as, somewhere, white (neutral) and ground end up being tied together anyway. the only thing that should have a problem with this would be a GFCI, which should trip immediately.

if u hook black to ground, u should absolutely trip the breaker. if not, it should start a fire, especially after 2 or 3 minutes.

my best guess is that it's a coincidence that your freezer stopped working, but don't quote me on that.
 
to elaborate, black is (or SHOULD be) the hot wire. connecting hot directly to ground with no load has drastic consequences, which should be stopped by the circuit breaker tripping.
 
I think it was the white wire from the pump house that I by mistake connected to the ground
on the house--not sure but I think this is the way it was....
 
in which case, i'd guess that both the light bulb and the freezer had nothing to do with the wiring issue. light bulbs often fail when first turned on - if it was that bulb's time, it was gonna blow, even with perfect wiring.

there should be no serious issues with neutral and ground being connected together. somewhere, they already are.
 
Actually I replaced the bulb and blew another one before I said to myself "yea self you did
mess up something" so the bulb definitely blew because I had wires crossed...
 
Not an electrician either, so I can't say for sure if your hookup
caused the freezer to die.
However, neutral and ground are two different things.
Neutral carries working current.
The ground wire only carries current during a fault condition.

Blowing light bulbs that way? Hmmmm.
We have electricians and electrical engineers here on the forum.
Let's see what they say.
 
Thinking makes it hard for us to guess what you did.

Unless you can tell us exactly what wires connected where, and how the outbuilding us wired, all bets are off.

Sub panel?

Bonded neutral?

120v feed? Not 240?
 
However, neutral and ground are two different things.
Neutral carries working current.
The ground wire only carries current during a fault condition.

yes, that's the plan ;)

u don't want working current in the ground wire because the ground wire is not insulated, and is also usually a smaller gauge. but unless your home is different than mine, you'll see that there is continuity between them. somewhere, they are tied together. in my case, they are bonded outside, at my service entrance. in some cases, they are bonded together in the breaker box. i chose to remove the bonding bar that came installed in the square D box i put in the basement.

i certainly wouldn't advocate swapping them around indiscriminately - but i'm at a loss to understand how a brief swapping could cause these issues. always happy to learn, tho :)
 
110V fed from 110 panel inside the house(1955 installed) Three wire romex thru attic-out thru fascia board and on to the outhouse 20 ft away--no panel in there --so how is it split for one light and 2 receptacles? I do not know...no telling...anyway I am near certain I had the ground going to the white instead of ground to ground and white to white--black to b;ack I did not cross up..anyway switched the wires--no more blown bulbs--freezer dead-likely coincidental--originally disconnected so I could screw the wire support insulator back into the fascia board where it got hit by a falling limb yrs ago and got pulled out of the FBd --just for kicks will take meter and ck voltage at the receptacles when I go down that way tomorrow,,Thanks
 
If your feed is only 110V I do not know any condition that would blow light. However, if the white wire and black were each carrying 110v you would have 220 across them so one side feeds lights and other side feeds outlets (freezer) Some folks in older days used romex for 220v and the ground would be return neutral. Not exactly code. If you did wire as described it would blow bulb because 220v would be sitting across it; so I would put AC meter across black and white and see what you have. Please let us know.
 
(quoted from post at 22:51:34 01/30/16) If your feed is only 110V I do not know any condition that would blow light. However, if the white wire and black were each carrying 110v you would have 220 across them so one side feeds lights and other side feeds outlets (freezer) Some folks in older days used romex for 220v and the ground would be return neutral. Not exactly code. If you did wire as described it would blow bulb because 220v would be sitting across it; so I would put AC meter across black and white and see what you have. Please let us know.

I was thinking along the same lines but mostly because of the reference to a pump house. Well pumps are usually 220V. 220 will blow a bulb in a heartbeat and would be pretty tough on a freezer compressor motor. Should be a 2 pole breaker though if it's wired that way but I suppose it could be done with two single pole breakers.
 
Will get more info.tHIS IS AT MY dAD'S PLACE 30 MILES AWAY-BE GOING THERE TOMORROW-HOPE TO
HAVE TIME TO GET MORE INFO tomorrow Small red indicator light on the front of the freezer
did not blow-looks like it would have been the first thing to blow if 220 was even
momentarily wired to the freezer--anyway will definitely make time to check receptacle
voltage tomorrow--and hopefully get time to check another thing or two- Thanks
 
The little light on freezer is just a neon bulb and will not blow on 220 so it will be still lit.. Forgot about pump so it will be 220V for sure. Pretty sure you will find that is what happened. Probably no ground rod at pump house or neutral is not grounded so it makes for a somewhat dangerous setup so be careful. Bill
 
Thanks--light is working-going to verify 110 at receptacles and if that is good, I will be leaving well enough alone for now..Was an old jet pump-has been discontinued yrs ago so curb is capped with no pump--being a jet i thought it was 110--nevertheless it is not there anymore..only concerned about the light and receptacles--will check receptacle voltage tomorrow..Tks again
 

ya, a white wire with 110 volts would explain all.

check voltage between black and white where u originally disconnected it (no need to disconnect if u can get your meter's leads on it as is). 220 explains everything, 110 = big mystery :)
 
Since you switched the wires back everything probably is ok for now. If you find that the romex is carrying split 220 you could spare the next poor guy a jolt by wrapping the white wire with black electrical tape at both ends to signify that it's hot. If you find it's routed through two single pole breakers I'd fix it with a two pole breaker since it would otherwise leave a hot wire in the pump room box even when you thought the power was off.
 
If you find that the romex is carrying split 220 you could spare the next poor guy a jolt by wrapping the white wire with black electrical tape at both ends to signify that it's hot. If you find it's routed through two single pole breakers I'd fix it with a two pole breaker since it would otherwise leave a hot wire in the pump room box even when you thought the power was off.

lol, so true. i'm not a fan of neutrals that aren't.
 
Rather than guessing, why not disconnect what you reconnected and measure the incoming voltage of the conduit line with a meter? Put one lead on the black and the other on the white (again, not connected to any outlet, etc.).

If you read 220-240 volts then your freezer or other equipment may be wired for that. You can install a different pattern plug outlet and plug on the equipment so that you don't forget in the future (I do). I also write the voltage on the cover plate. Why? I already ruined one sander by mistakenly plugging in to 220 volts.

If you don't read 220-240 volts you should read 110-120 volts. As stated before, in a 110 volt system the white and ground should be separate. BUT, many times you find them tied together at your breaker or fuse box. You CAN put the white and ground together...but I don't think it is code. I'm not an electrician, but in the 110 volt system I like to install a ground rod and connect the grounds from the supply (home?) and the outlet to that. It's pretty easy. 4' ground rods are cheap and easy to pound in the ground.

Many times you find three part wire (white, black and naked ground) that folks wired for 220 volt. If done properly, there should be 4 wires for 220 volt, but it is more expensive and most times folks have cheated and used 3-wire romex (usually flat wire you find at Home Depot, etc.). Again, that is not code.

By the way, most cell phone cube chargers can be used on 220 volts. Get a magnifying glass and read the cube. Most say the "input" can be 110-220 volts.

I'm sure a real electrician and I am sure one will post to correct what I have said.
 
(quoted from post at 10:17:50 01/31/16) Rather than guessing, why not disconnect what you reconnected and measure the incoming voltage of the conduit line with a meter? Put one lead on the black and the other on the white (again, not connected to any outlet, etc.).

If you read 220-240 volts then your freezer or other equipment may be wired for that. You can install a different pattern plug outlet and plug on the equipment so that you don't forget in the future (I do). I also write the voltage on the cover plate. Why? I already ruined one sander by mistakenly plugging in to 220 volts.

If you don't read 220-240 volts you should read 110-120 volts. As stated before, in a 110 volt system the white and ground should be separate. BUT, many times you find them tied together at your breaker or fuse box. You CAN put the white and ground together...but I don't think it is code. I'm not an electrician, but in the 110 volt system I like to install a ground rod and connect the grounds from the supply (home?) and the outlet to that. It's pretty easy. 4' ground rods are cheap and easy to pound in the ground.

Many times you find three part wire (white, black and naked ground) that folks wired for 220 volt. If done properly, there should be 4 wires for 220 volt, but it is more expensive and most times folks have cheated and used 3-wire romex (usually flat wire you find at Home Depot, etc.). Again, that is not code.

By the way, most cell phone cube chargers can be used on 220 volts. Get a magnifying glass and read the cube. Most say the "input" can be 110-220 volts.

I'm sure a real electrician and I am sure one will post to correct what I have said.


I am not a "real" electrician but I have done my share of inspected wiring. There is absolutely no need or requirement for three current carrying conductors (3 wires plus ground) in a 240V circuit. Two conductor with ground type cable (Romex, BX, etc) is 100% NEC compliant for 240V circuits and is the standard residential method of wiring them. When using such cable for 240V circuits NEC suggests but does not require that you mark the white conductor so as to identify it's use - usually by applying red or black tape/ink/paint to the insulation at the termination points. NEC [u:c18fdc6138][b:c18fdc6138]requires[/b:c18fdc6138][/u:c18fdc6138] a three conductor with ground cable if you are going to use the circuit to supply 120V circuits in addition to the 240V circuits. In that case you need a white current carrying neutral conductor in addition to the two (usually black& red) "hot" conductors and (usually) bare ground conductor.

In general for sub-panels located in a building other than the one containing the service entrance equipment the subpanel should have it's own grounding grid and grounding conductor the the neutral should be bonded. For sub-panels within the same structure the panel does not need and should not have a grounding grid and the neutral MUST NOT be bonded at at the sub-panel.

TOH
 
TOH, what you say is correct, feeders are only 2 wire plus ground for 220. For unattached outside building, romex would probably not be correct unless in waterproof conduit. Also correct is the bonding to ground, if properly bonded to ground a breaker would have tripped instead of bulb and freezer going. Kinda dangerous because a ground wire aint really a ground wire when lifted off as it will be energize through load. Bill
 
romex is a brand name, and has become synonymous with the wire to most, regardless of brand, like kleenex. it is made in multiple styles, with different outer coverings. type UF romex (gray) can be buried, with or without waterproof conduit.

type NM romex (indoor) is not acceptable buried, whether it's in waterproof conduit or not. buried conduit will fill with water from condensation, so the romex itself must be waterproof as well.
 
(quoted from post at 14:06:21 01/31/16) TOH, what you say is correct, feeders are only 2 wire plus ground for 220. For unattached outside building, romex would probably not be correct unless in waterproof conduit. Also correct is the bonding to ground, if properly bonded to ground a breaker would have tripped instead of bulb and freezer going. Kinda dangerous because a ground wire aint really a ground wire when lifted off as it will be energize through load. Bill

To be clear - in NEC terminology I was talking about cables in branch circuits not feeders. From the description it would appear to be a branch circuit supplying a detached structure. To be considered a feeder under the NEC it would have to be going to an over current device in that building. And yes - it would seem he inadvertently lifted the "not allowed by current code" neutral and wound up putting 240V on his 120V devices.....

TOH
 
I assumed (yes, I know) that it's overhead because Tom disconnected it at the fascia.

i was referring to bill's comment about conduit. when i see waterproof conduit, i don't think of an overhead wire between two buildings, so i assumed he meant buried. my bad.

i won't use NM outdoors, with or without conduit. i wonder what code says about it.
 
(quoted from post at 16:52:25 01/31/16)
I assumed (yes, I know) that it's overhead because Tom disconnected it at the fascia.

i was referring to bill's comment about conduit. when i see waterproof conduit, i don't think of an overhead wire between two buildings, so i assumed he meant buried. my bad.

i won't use NM outdoors, with or without conduit. i wonder what code says about it.

One thing it says is:

[i:9dca5d6f0f]ARTICLE 334 Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable: Types NM, NMC, and NMS
II. Installation
334.12 Uses Not Permitted.
(B) Types NM and NMS. Types NM and NMS cables shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations:
.
.
.
(4) In wet or damp locations
[/i:9dca5d6f0f]

An exposed ovehead wire beween structures or buried conduit is clearly a "wet or damp location". But is stapled to the joist under your roofed but open front porch floor and 2' above grade a "wet or damp location? Questions like that are why they pay those Inspectors the big bucks ;-)

TOH
 
"why they pay those Inspectors the big bucks"

I always thought it was because they couldn't make it as real
electricians. That's what ours is here, a failed local electrician.
I've had more than one go around with him.
When I cited code chapter and verse by number he literally
asked me "where did you get a copy of the code book?"
Like I wasn't supposed to have it and had to "guess" what
he would pass or fail. It met code, so it passed. Every time.
But not until I proved that it met code.
The man is just on some sort of power trip.
A real shame for the folks wanting to do it themselves.
He'll pass anything a union electrician does without hardly looking.
 
thanks, hokie :)

if i'm the one making the call on the porch, ya, that's a wet or damp location, and i'd use UF. the closest i flirt with no-man's land with NM is in my pole barn and garage, both dirt floors - but everything's a good 4 feet up or higher.

my current home is the only one i've owned and had to have inspected. happily, my inspector here gave me no grief. it was my first experience with inspectors, and i was really pleasantly surprised across the board.
 
(quoted from post at 18:31:34 01/31/16) "why they pay those Inspectors the big bucks"

I always thought it was because they couldn't make it as real
electricians. That's what ours is here, a failed local electrician.
I've had more than one go around with him.
When I cited code chapter and verse by number he literally
asked me "where did you get a copy of the code book?"
Like I wasn't supposed to have it and had to "guess" what
he would pass or fail. It met code, so it passed. Every time.
But not until I proved that it met code.
The man is just on some sort of power trip.
A real shame for the folks wanting to do it themselves.
He'll pass anything a union electrician does without hardly looking.

Oddly enough I have had the opposite experience - here are a couple exmples.

When I built my shop I wanted to heavy up my existing 200A residential service to 400A and run a new 200A service from the back of my house to the shop. The "master electrician" I initially spoke with was adamant that I would need to install a water tight 400A fused disconnect on the back of my house and that it would become my new "service equipment. Then I would install two new 4 wire runs from it to the house and shop which would now be "sub-panels". Not liking that answer I talked to the inspector and asked why I couldn't just double lug the new 400A meter, reconnect the existing house "service equipment" using the existing three wire SE cable, and run a direct burial three wire SE lateral from the meter base to a second service entrance panel in the shop. His answer was "why would you want to do it the other way?"

When setting the shop main panel the professional I hired for that task didn't have the proper size conduit or fittings to match the one I had brought up through the slab with the SE cables inside. Rather than go get the proper conduitfo rthe connection to the new panel he tried to slip fit and tape a smaller piece inside the larger one. The inspector gave him holy hell when he saw it and made him rip it out and do it right. A few months earlier that same inspector barely glanced at the anally perfect work I had done on the footer grounding grid before signing off on it....

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 18:50:23 01/31/16) thanks, hokie :)

if i'm the one making the call on the porch, ya, that's a wet or damp location, and i'd use UF. the closest i flirt with no-man's land with NM is in my pole barn and garage, both dirt floors - but everything's a good 4 feet up or higher.

my current home is the only one i've owned and had to have inspected. happily, my inspector here gave me no grief. it was my first experience with inspectors, and i was really pleasantly surprised across the board.

Here I'm told barns have animal urine and critters and sheathed cable is not acceptable cause the urine vapors degrade the insulation and the critters can chew through it. If you use sheathed cable of any type it's got to be run inside conduit for physical protection. Ain't the NEC grand ;-)

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 19:14:11 01/31/16)
(quoted from post at 18:31:34 01/31/16) "why they pay those Inspectors the big bucks"

I always thought it was because they couldn't make it as real
electricians. That's what ours is here, a failed local electrician.
I've had more than one go around with him.
When I cited code chapter and verse by number he literally
asked me "where did you get a copy of the code book?"
Like I wasn't supposed to have it and had to "guess" what
he would pass or fail. It met code, so it passed. Every time.
But not until I proved that it met code.
The man is just on some sort of power trip.
A real shame for the folks wanting to do it themselves.
He'll pass anything a union electrician does without hardly looking.

Oddly enough I have had the opposite experience - here are a couple exmples.

When I built my shop I wanted to heavy up my existing 200A residential service to 400A and run a new 200A service from the back of my house to the shop. The "master electrician" I initially spoke with was adamant that I would need to install a water tight 400A fused disconnect on the back of my house and that it would become my new "service equipment. Then I would install two new 4 wire runs from it to the house and shop which would now be "sub-panels". Not liking that answer I talked to the inspector and asked why I couldn't just double lug the new 400A meter, reconnect the existing house "service equipment" using the existing three wire SE cable, and run a direct burial three wire SE lateral from the meter base to a second service entrance panel in the shop. His answer was "why would you want to do it the other way?"

When setting the shop main panel the professional I hired for that task didn't have the proper size conduit or fittings to match the one I had brought up through the slab with the SE cables inside. Rather than go get the proper conduitfo rthe connection to the new panel he tried to slip fit and tape a smaller piece inside the larger one. The inspector gave him holy hell when he saw it and made him rip it out and do it right. A few months earlier that same inspector barely glanced at the anally perfect work I had done on the footer grounding grid before signing off on it....

TOH
When I work in the next county over, that's what I get too.
Great inspector over there as long as the work is right.
He hit me on something I had done wrong, and it was wrong.
Simply me not knowing something that was a bit obscure.

But he volunteered to come back same day if I would fix it.
I did, and he checked it. I asked when it would be approved to get
power turned back on. He said "two hours ago, I knew you'd fix it."
 
One last note and I will quit bugging everyone on this subject--Yes, it is overhead wire--checked voltage at the receptacle where the freezer is/was plugged in and it has 123 volts--freezer walls were real cool but freezer not freezing--dipped out standing water in it-declared it officially dead and unplugged it----determined 120v only going to the pump house so no issue with crossing two wires and sending 220 to it. blowing the light bulbs will remain a mystery --guess it was just freezers time to go---Thanks to all for the responses-I learned a lot from them...
 
hard to follow this thread on a phone... but was that what it was. 240 on 3 wire?

that is one of the things I was guessing... a 240v feed.
 
Sometimes you can lay a refer or freezer on its side for a hour then on its top, then the other side, then upright, to get any bubbles out of the coils,,,,sometimes
 

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