+ Ground or - Ground. Asking, even though I sound stupid

lastcowboy32

Well-known Member
My tractor (2N) came to me with a negative ground.

It has worked; so I left it alone.

But, I've read that I would get better spark efficiency; if I put it back to positive ground; due to the coil really wanting to be in a positive ground system.

So, other than having the battery cables reversed, what kind of cowboy re-wiring tricks should I look for before I try to put this back?

Did people just swap the battery terminals and the darn thing just works, albeit with less spark efficiency?

As nearly as I can tell, all equipment is original. It has an original starter and what looks like the 3 brush generator (only one electrical connection to the harness on top, and a little adjustment screw on the back to adjust the output voltage) it has no regulator, but it does have a cutout switch.
 
"But, I've read that I would get better spark efficiency; "

In theory, yes. Practically, you will see no difference.

" It has worked; so I left it alone."

That would be wise.

But, if you insist on putting it back positive ground, see tip # 23
75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 09:13:03 11/29/15) "But, I've read that I would get better spark efficiency; "

In theory, yes. Practically, you will see no difference.

" It has worked; so I left it alone."

That would be wise.

But, if you insist on putting it back positive ground, see tip # 23
75 Tips

Well, good. I'd rather leave it. I was in the middle of cleaning off all of the connections for winter; which is a minor task. If I had to switch the polarity over; I would have to either buy new battery terminal clamps for my battery cables or new battery cables; because the ones on the tractor are perfectly sized for the way it is now. The clamp on the cable to the starter relay fits the positive battery terminal perfectly, but it is way too big for the negative battery terminal. The clamp to chassis ground fits the negative battery terminal perfectly, but it won't even go over the positive battery terminal if I stretch it.

It seems that whomever switched the polarity of the tractor over did so intentionally, and the wiring, for the most part, looks to be recently redone and in good shape.
 
(quoted from post at 14:56:47 11/29/15)
(quoted from post at 09:13:03 11/29/15) "But, I've read that I would get better spark efficiency; "

In theory, yes. Practically, you will see no difference.

" It has worked; so I left it alone."

That would be wise.

But, if you insist on putting it back positive ground, see tip # 23
75 Tips

Well, good. I'd rather leave it. I was in the middle of cleaning off all of the connections for winter; which is a minor task. If I had to switch the polarity over; I would have to either buy new battery terminal clamps for my battery cables or new battery cables; because the ones on the tractor are perfectly sized for the way it is now. The clamp on the cable to the starter relay fits the positive battery terminal perfectly, but it is way too big for the negative battery terminal. The clamp to chassis ground fits the negative battery terminal perfectly, but it won't even go over the positive battery terminal if I stretch it.

It seems that whomever switched the polarity of the tractor over did so intentionally, and the wiring, for the most part, looks to be recently redone and in good shape.

I agree, if it charges the battery I would leave it alone.
If it doesn't charge the battery, I might look at it differently.
 
cowboy........awe yes, the positive (+) ground conundrum. Battery don't care, (+) or (-); starter motor don't care; headlites don't care; sparkies don't care enny more; points and condenser don't care; squarecan coil only semi-cares; MANDATORY infamous ballast resistor don't care; BUT 6-volt genny really cares; 12-volt alternator absolutely demands negative (-) ground or you will lett the smoke out; and finally, ground can be positive (+) AND negative (-) at the same time.

Alright, sparkies and coil work together; in electricity, electrons (-) LOVE positive (+); coils are magnets that can change polarity depending whether wound clockwize or counter-clockwize ...or... what polarity it connected to the ends of the coil ...ie... (+) or (-) so when you read sparkplugs LOVE positive (+) ground, it means the electrons (-) LOVE to jump the gap (0.025) to positive (+) ground and when they JUMP they make a HOT spark that IGNITES the gasoline mixture, causing the EXPLODING mixture to PUSH down on the top of the piston causing the CRANK to ROTATE. And its the ROTATION that causes the wheels to go round'n'round. Simple, eh?

DC gennys can output NEGATIVE (-) or POSITIVE (+) volts depending upon which way they are turned. Since the engine only turns 1-way, you haffta "polarize" the internal magnetic field for what ever the ground is, which is determined by how the battery is connected. You might take a good look at yer battery terminals 'cuz they are labeled (+) and (-). And the battery can NOT change polarity 'cuz of chemical reaction between the LEAD plates and SULFURIC ACID.

And since 12-volt conversions are common using the alternator with built-in solid state voltage regulator, it is MANDATORY to be connected NEGATIVE (-) ground. And use a real 12-volt coil. There is a special 12-volt squarecan coil for the weird 4-nipple dizzy. And 12-volt roundcan coils fer the 5-nipple side mount dizzy are readily available. (IC-14Si)

And finally, recommend AutoLite 437 sparkies gapped 0.025". Since many neuibie tractor owners FLOOD their engines 'cuz they don't understand the carbie CHOKE knobie, ittza good thing to have a spare set of AutoLite 437 sparkies. So enny time you kant start yer tractor, change yer sparkies. Don't throw yer FLOODED sparkies away, just clean'n'dry 'em, one-atta-time in HOT running engine and save'um fer the NEXT time (and there will be a NEXT time)

HTH.......Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister
 
(quoted from post at 12:10:02 11/29/15)
(quoted from post at 14:56:47 11/29/15)
(quoted from post at 09:13:03 11/29/15) "But, I've read that I would get better spark efficiency; "

In theory, yes. Practically, you will see no difference.

" It has worked; so I left it alone."

That would be wise.

But, if you insist on putting it back positive ground, see tip # 23
75 Tips

Well, good. I'd rather leave it. I was in the middle of cleaning off all of the connections for winter; which is a minor task. If I had to switch the polarity over; I would have to either buy new battery terminal clamps for my battery cables or new battery cables; because the ones on the tractor are perfectly sized for the way it is now. The clamp on the cable to the starter relay fits the positive battery terminal perfectly, but it is way too big for the negative battery terminal. The clamp to chassis ground fits the negative battery terminal perfectly, but it won't even go over the positive battery terminal if I stretch it.

It seems that whomever switched the polarity of the tractor over did so intentionally, and the wiring, for the most part, looks to be recently redone and in good shape.

I agree, if it charges the battery I would leave it alone.
If it doesn't charge the battery, I might look at it differently.

Part of the reason why I was cleaning off all of my terminals and such was that I'm not so sure that it IS charging the battery very well.

The starting seems to get weak after a while. A long while, maybe a couple of weeks.

I did notice that my generator belt was more loose than it should be; so I tightened that up per spec.

I took the battery out and put it on a charger/maintainer for about six hours; until the maintainer said that it was full.

I don't think that it's a polarity issue though; because after I put everything back together and after doing the battery + to generator armature precharge, I fired up the tractor and everything has the proper voltage with respect to ground.

I ran it for an hour or so doing some chores and then did some measurements. Generator seems maybe a little high, but the right polarity. I did notice that the generator voltage is only present on one side of my cutout switch.

Right now, that may be OK; because the battery is full, but that cutout should connect the generator to battery at some point when the generator output is high enough and the battery is low enough...if not...then that may be my issue.

I'm just going to keep an eye on that cutout and throw a multimeter on it here and there when I get done with using the tractor for chores to see if I can ever catch generator voltage on both sides.

I also need to read the proper paragraph in the F0-4 manual for that three brush generator. I haven't memorized the high/low settings for the cutout yet.

And Dell, I appreciate the rundown on which part cares about what :)
 
24 degrees here this morning, and it started; so everything seems OK for now. Just going to watch the cutout/generator output for a while.
 
(quoted from post at 10:59:55 11/30/15)
(quoted from post at 12:10:02 11/29/15)
(quoted from post at 14:56:47 11/29/15)
(quoted from post at 09:13:03 11/29/15) "But, I've read that I would get better spark efficiency; "

In theory, yes. Practically, you will see no difference.

" It has worked; so I left it alone."

That would be wise.

But, if you insist on putting it back positive ground, see tip # 23
75 Tips

Well, good. I'd rather leave it. I was in the middle of cleaning off all of the connections for winter; which is a minor task. If I had to switch the polarity over; I would have to either buy new battery terminal clamps for my battery cables or new battery cables; because the ones on the tractor are perfectly sized for the way it is now. The clamp on the cable to the starter relay fits the positive battery terminal perfectly, but it is way too big for the negative battery terminal. The clamp to chassis ground fits the negative battery terminal perfectly, but it won't even go over the positive battery terminal if I stretch it.

It seems that whomever switched the polarity of the tractor over did so intentionally, and the wiring, for the most part, looks to be recently redone and in good shape.

I agree, if it charges the battery I would leave it alone.
If it doesn't charge the battery, I might look at it differently.

Part of the reason why I was cleaning off all of my terminals and such was that I'm not so sure that it IS charging the battery very well.

The starting seems to get weak after a while. A long while, maybe a couple of weeks.

I did notice that my generator belt was more loose than it should be; so I tightened that up per spec.

I took the battery out and put it on a charger/maintainer for about six hours; until the maintainer said that it was full.

I don't think that it's a polarity issue though; because after I put everything back together and after doing the battery + to generator armature precharge, I fired up the tractor and everything has the proper voltage with respect to ground.

I ran it for an hour or so doing some chores and then did some measurements. Generator seems maybe a little high, but the right polarity. I did notice that the generator voltage is only present on one side of my cutout switch.

Right now, that may be OK; because the battery is full, but that cutout should connect the generator to battery at some point when the generator output is high enough and the battery is low enough...if not...then that may be my issue.

I'm just going to keep an eye on that cutout and throw a multimeter on it here and there when I get done with using the tractor for chores to see if I can ever catch generator voltage on both sides.

I also need to read the proper paragraph in the F0-4 manual for that three brush generator. I haven't memorized the high/low settings for the cutout yet.

And Dell, I appreciate the rundown on which part cares about what :)
... but that cutout should connect the generator to battery at some point when the generator output is high enough and the battery is low enough".
Half of that statement is correct. True: "when the generator output is high enough." False:"and the battery is low enough".
Cutout doesn't know or care about battery voltage.
 
If the cutout is not closing, The battery is not getting charged. You say nothing about the ammeter. If it is working what does it say?

I would think that you should have battery voltage on one side of the cutout and generator on the other side if it is not closing. JMOR, is that right?
 
Half of that statement is correct. True: "when the generator output is high enough." False:"and the battery is low enough".
Cutout doesn't know or care about battery voltage.[/quote]

That makes my life a little easier. When I measured yesterday, my generator voltage was unloaded and very high, as in somewhere around 10 Volts (positive with respect to chassis). My battery voltage was 6V (positive with respect to chassis). My cutout had generator voltage on one side and nothing on the other.

I'll repeat the measurement, just to make sure that I'm getting good contact and such.
 
(quoted from post at 11:22:24 11/30/15) Half of that statement is correct. True: "when the generator output is high enough." False:"and the battery is low enough".
Cutout doesn't know or care about battery voltage.

That makes my life a little easier. When I measured yesterday, my generator voltage was unloaded and very high, as in somewhere around 10 Volts (positive with respect to chassis). My battery voltage was 6V (positive with respect to chassis). My cutout had generator voltage on one side and nothing on the other.

I'll repeat the measurement, just to make sure that I'm getting good contact and such.[/quote]ith 10v on generator side of CO, it should have been closed, thus making batt side & gen sides equal, or zero across CO.
 

Also wondering if these cutouts can get "sticky" like a solenoid. Maybe it's making intermittent contact and working here and there, depending on vibrations, the tractor hitting bumps and such?

Just seems like the battery would be going dead much faster if the cutout was completely open all of the time.
 
(quoted from post at 11:44:52 11/30/15)
Also wondering if these cutouts can get "sticky" like a solenoid. Maybe it's making intermittent contact and working here and there, depending on vibrations, the tractor hitting bumps and such?

Just seems like the battery would be going dead much faster if the cutout was completely open all of the time.
faster" is not a measure of time, meaning that if you had a good battery & started your tractor once, there is enough ampere-hours in that battery to run the tractor through 3 or 4 tanks of gas before the battery dies from lack of being charged. Just perspective.
 
Understood. I'm "measuring" by the number of starts. I shut it off and start it at least three times per day while doing chores so that it doesn't smoke up the barn idling while I'm loading the cart and so on.

Then I did a bunch of compression testing and some work on the carburetor that entailed a bunch of starter cycling.

I charged the battery externally about a month ago when the points went bad. It was cold, and I was cranking the crap out of it to get it started; until I fixed the points.

Since then, no real problems until it got cold again a couple of days ago. That's when I started cleaning terminals, looking at wiring and such. I would estimate about 90 starts in between (30 days by 3 times per day). I would imagine that it would have croaked before that if it was getting no charge ever???
 
If you do not see more than battery voltage at the battery when it is running, it is not charging. Pretty straight forward. Again, do you have an amp meter?
 
(quoted from post at 12:04:03 11/30/15) If you do not see more than battery voltage at the battery when it is running, it is not charging. Pretty straight forward. Again, do you have an amp meter?

Not one capable of measuring charge current. (at home anyways)

I may be able to lay my hands on one.

According to the manual, if I figure out the cutout issue; completing the test and setting the generator would require a 1/4 ohm resistor; which I also don't have.

It works for now. I'll figure it out.

I think that it probably is a straightforward Cutout failure. Just going to double check.
 
All of the N tractors came with an amp meter in the dash. Yours may have been removed or replaced with a voltmeter.
 
(quoted from post at 13:17:22 11/30/15) All of the N tractors came with an amp meter in the dash. Yours may have been removed or replaced with a voltmeter.

Probably worth it to wire one back in. Would have answered a lot of questions for me already.
 

If I understand it correctly...

If your engine is running at high rpm.. the gen is making too much voltage, and the cut-out "cuts out" and you only have gen voltage on one side.

if your reduce engine RPM to something lower, then the voltage will drop, and your cutout should "cut-in" and your should register voltage on both sides...

Try doing your cutout voltage test again at lower rpms i.e. try to get the gen to produce less than the 10volts you saw earlier and see if it will cut in. you may have to start at full throttle, and then reduce in steps (maybe almost to idle.)
 
(quoted from post at 13:07:33 12/01/15)
If I understand it correctly...

If your engine is running at high rpm.. the gen is making too much voltage, and the cut-out "cuts out" and you only have gen voltage on one side.

if your reduce engine RPM to something lower, then the voltage will drop, and your cutout should "cut-in" and your should register voltage on both sides...

Try doing your cutout voltage test again at lower rpms i.e. try to get the gen to produce less than the 10volts you saw earlier and see if it will cut in. you may have to start at full throttle, and then reduce in steps (maybe almost to idle.)
If I understand it correctly... ". Big "if", so no, go back & re-read that section of the FO-4 again.
 
(quoted from post at 10:07:33 12/01/15)
If I understand it correctly...

If your engine is running at high rpm.. the gen is making too much voltage, and the cut-out "cuts out" and you only have gen voltage on one side.

if your reduce engine RPM to something lower, then the voltage will drop, and your cutout should "cut-in" and your should register voltage on both sides...

Try doing your cutout voltage test again at lower rpms i.e. try to get the gen to produce less than the 10volts you saw earlier and see if it will cut in. you may have to start at full throttle, and then reduce in steps (maybe almost to idle.)

I did fiddle around with that some. My cutout didn't operate at any rpms all of the way down to idle. My generator voltage never dropped much either. I also think (just guessing here) that there could be some chicken and egg going on with the generator voltage being so high. As in, I would guess that the generator voltage might load down a little bit if the cutout was working as it should to connect the generator to the battery. The current draw into the battery might be what the generator needs to bring its voltage down. If the cutout never connects, the voltage might never drop.

What little I've read so far about checking the generator voltage involves measuring it when loaded. Right now, it's never loading.

Also from reading that a little bit, my understanding, (I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong) is that the cutout should keep the generator disconnected from the battery at very low rpms, if the generator voltage falls below a preset voltage. This is to prevent the battery from discharging through the generator.

As the rpms go up and the generator output rises to the appropriate level, the cutout should connect the battery to the generator to commence charging. That level of "cut-in" is set by the cutout switch.

Once connected, the cutout will stay connected as the generator voltage rises with rpms.

If I then throttle the tractor back, the cutout will stay connected as the generator voltage goes back down, even through the "cut-in" voltage to somewhere around a half a volt below it. (My guess is that the difference between cutout and cut-in is to keep the switch from "chattering" if the voltage wavers around the cut-in voltage...what people call "hysteresis")

I think that I'm supposed to check the generator voltage when it's connected to the battery by the cutout and putting out a certain current.

As of right now, I'm not getting that condition through the cutout.

I could jumper over the cutout momentarily just to see if the generator voltage drops, but I would still be flying blind without an ammeter to measure the generator output.

As far as the cutout disconnecting when the generator voltage goes to high, I'm not getting that from what I've read. I think (again, correct me if I'm wrong) that the cutout will happily connect a battery to a generator that's running too high, resulting in overcharging the battery, battery heating and battery water loss. I think that that's why it's important to set the generator output too.

I think (think being the operative word) that the cutout sets the lowest possible charging voltage for the battery and the generator sets the highest...especially on mine, which is a three-brush generator with the little adjusting screw on the back.
 
(quoted from post at 13:44:56 12/01/15)
(quoted from post at 10:07:33 12/01/15)
If I understand it correctly...

If your engine is running at high rpm.. the gen is making too much voltage, and the cut-out "cuts out" and you only have gen voltage on one side.

if your reduce engine RPM to something lower, then the voltage will drop, and your cutout should "cut-in" and your should register voltage on both sides...

Try doing your cutout voltage test again at lower rpms i.e. try to get the gen to produce less than the 10volts you saw earlier and see if it will cut in. you may have to start at full throttle, and then reduce in steps (maybe almost to idle.)

I did fiddle around with that some. My cutout didn't operate at any rpms all of the way down to idle. My generator voltage never dropped much either. I also think (just guessing here) that there could be some chicken and egg going on with the generator voltage being so high. As in, I would guess that the generator voltage might load down a little bit if the cutout was working as it should to connect the generator to the battery. The current draw into the battery might be what the generator needs to bring its voltage down. If the cutout never connects, the voltage might never drop.

What little I've read so far about checking the generator voltage involves measuring it when loaded. Right now, it's never loading.

Also from reading that a little bit, my understanding, (I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong) is that the cutout should keep the generator disconnected from the battery at very low rpms, if the generator voltage falls below a preset voltage. This is to prevent the battery from discharging through the generator.

As the rpms go up and the generator output rises to the appropriate level, the cutout should connect the battery to the generator to commence charging. That level of "cut-in" is set by the cutout switch.

Once connected, the cutout will stay connected as the generator voltage rises with rpms.

If I then throttle the tractor back, the cutout will stay connected as the generator voltage goes back down, even through the "cut-in" voltage to somewhere around a half a volt below it. (My guess is that the difference between cutout and cut-in is to keep the switch from "chattering" if the voltage wavers around the cut-in voltage...what people call "hysteresis")

I think that I'm supposed to check the generator voltage when it's connected to the battery by the cutout and putting out a certain current.

As of right now, I'm not getting that condition through the cutout.

I could jumper over the cutout momentarily just to see if the generator voltage drops, but I would still be flying blind without an ammeter to measure the generator output.

As far as the cutout disconnecting when the generator voltage goes to high, I'm not getting that from what I've read. I think (again, correct me if I'm wrong) that the cutout will happily connect a battery to a generator that's running too high, resulting in overcharging the battery, battery heating and battery water loss. I think that that's why it's important to set the generator output too.

I think (think being the operative word) that the cutout sets the lowest possible charging voltage for the battery and the generator sets the highest...especially on mine, which is a three-brush generator with the little adjusting screw on the back.
ou seem to have the concept fairly well in hand. Jumpering across the cut out, even without an ammeter, can still be constructive/informative, as you can monitor battery voltage while running & if charging, you will see it slowly increase over several minutes of running at speed.
 

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