OT - Kubota steering shaft question - Pics included

Big Trees

Member
I have this Kubota B6000E that I'm waiting on the steering bearings, seals etc to come in so I can rebuild this box and get it back moving. When I took out the shaft it appeared to be in good condition but today when I took the box off of the tractor I noticed the sector shaft has a couple chips in it. This shaft new is $2000 (no typo) and I don't think I'll be able to find it used as they sell the whole boxes and won't sell the shaft by itself.

My thought is that if I replace the bearings etc I should be able use it like this. But I was hoping you tractor folks much smarter than me would please give me your opinion on whether I'm wasting the bearings and seals by trying to use this shaft or whether you think that I'll be fine replacing that and using this shaft.

Thanks in advance


 

Let's start by saying that I am a Kubota guy. But you may be throwing good money after bad. That's a 40 year old machine and with that sort of damage I'd probably be searching for a replacement machine.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 15:39:12 10/07/15)
Let's start by saying that I am a Kubota guy. But you may be throwing good money after bad. That's a 40 year old machine and with that sort of damage I'd probably be searching for a replacement machine.

TOH

First and foremost, thank you for the response! Do you think that sector shaft is beat up beyond use? I'm really hoping to be able to use it and the tractor but I'm willing to except that fact that maybe I need a complete used/rebuilt box. I'm really hoping to not have to junk the tractor either, shoot, I haven't even been able to use it since I bought it. But again, I'm willing to except it if I have to part it out. Thank you very much, TOH!
 
TOH, you know more than me about that unit, BUT, is there NO way it can be adjusted and put back in service ?
 
(quoted from post at 20:21:33 10/07/15) TOH, you know more than me about that unit, BUT, is there NO way it can be adjusted and put back in service ?
Actually I don't know squat about that unit. But that gear is badly damaged so trying to reuse it is problematic. Rather than throw a bunch of $$$ at it I'd spend $3k on another old Kubota ( or OEM of your choice) - preferably one with ball nut steering ;-)
 
In a perfect world you could run down
to the Kubota dealer and buy the parts
for $50.
It's not a perfect world.
Those parts are rough but it looks to
me that most of the contact surfaces
are still intact. But they are very
low speed gears. If new bearings and
seals will tighten the box back up and
make a working tractor again I would
reassemble it, pump it full of
cornhead grease and not give it a
second thought.
When I installed power steering on my
3000 the steering box had had water
sitting in it for years and the sector
gears were badly pitted on the contact
surfaces. I didn't have the dough to
buy new ones so I just reused them.
The steering worked fine for 8 years
until I parted out another tractor and
put good ones in.
 
I would use it. It may go back together with some slack but I could stand that better than $2k for parts. I cant tell from the pics but can the gear
flipped or repositioned on the shaft to wear in another location on the gear. I've done that before with good results.
 

Thank you all for the responses, I sincerely appreciate the help!

Just to be clear, I would not spend 2K on the sector gear. If I can not get this gear to work with the new bearings and seals and if I'm set on keeping this tractor, my best option would be to spend $600 on a used/rebuilt steering box for the same tractor but one with a ball nut set up like TOH referred to.

It will bolt up I just have to replace the pitman arm too. And that box style the parts are more readily available and A LOT cheaper, brand new sector gear for the later model steering box design is $150 vs the $2K the one I have sells for. And in response to Tracy's comment, I'm not sure if it can be flipped or repositioned or not. I will definitely look at that when I put it back together.


I appreciate the replies and the personal experiences that relate to this, they make me feel a little better about the possibility of it working. I figured for the $70 in bearings, seals, shims etc would be well worth it if it does work but not a HUGE loss if it doesn't work. I would be frustrated but it will be worth the shot.

Thank you all very much!!
 
(quoted from post at 21:32:32 10/07/15)
Thank you all for the responses, I sincerely appreciate the help!

Just to be clear, I would not spend 2K on the sector gear. If I can not get this gear to work with the new bearings and seals and if I'm set on keeping this tractor, my best option would be to spend $600 on a used/rebuilt steering box for the same tractor but one with a ball nut set up like TOH referred to.

It will bolt up I just have to replace the pitman arm too. And that box style the parts are more readily available and A LOT cheaper, brand new sector gear for the later model steering box design is $150 vs the $2K the one I have sells for. And in response to Tracy's comment, I'm not sure if it can be flipped or repositioned or not. I will definitely look at that when I put it back together.


I appreciate the replies and the personal experiences that relate to this, they make me feel a little better about the possibility of it working. I figured for the $70 in bearings, seals, shims etc would be well worth it if it does work but not a HUGE loss if it doesn't work. I would be frustrated but it will be worth the shot.

Thank you all very much!!

If you can lay your hands on a later ball nut style box for a reasonable price and will fit on your machine I would bite the bullet, spend the money on something I know will work, and do the job just once. Even in perfect condition the steering boxes on that era B series machines (including the ball nut units) were one of the weak spots - it's one of the few things I have had to replace on mine. At this stage of my life I hate wasting my time and I suspect this is one of those "pay me now or pay me more later" situations. Obviously your call so good luck and let us know how it works out.

TOH
 
I wouldn't use the gear. I'd get the reman. unit or check out prices in a salvage yard first. That said, if you do go the salvage route ask if you can remove the cover to inspect before you buy.
 
(reply to post at 05:34:08 10/08/15)

TOH, ASEguy - Thank you both for the reply and the advice. I'll be honest, if I had the $600 to spend on the rebuilt box with the ball nut I would do it instead of possibly wasting the money on the bearings and seals. But money has been tight the last couple of months so I find that it's probably worth giving this a shot. If I would have posted this and everybody said it was worthless trying it, I would return the bearings and wait until I could afford the other box. Since I have received suggestions on both sides of the coin, I think I'll put the bearings and seals in and give it a shot and hope for the best. May not work at all and it may work forever. I'm hopeful but certainly have my doubts. Who knows unless I try.

I will report back what I find out when I put it back together. I appreciate the help and the personal stories to help me make a better informed decision.

You guys are the best, thank you VERY much!!
 

ASEguy, I don't know of any tractor salvage places by me, although there may be some. The ones I contacted were off of the internet so I wouldn't be able to check the condition of the gear in that case. I'll do a google search and maybe there's a salvage place close to me that I'm not aware of.

Thank you.
 
I was expecting to see a small corner chip or 2, which I would have said to run.

IMHO.. that gear will cause you problems.

If it was mine, and I couldn't find a repalcement I could afford right now, I'd weld the worst teeth up, then take my time with a die grinder and then a file and get them to contour. I'd shoot for a hair undersized to keep the stress off them, vs oversized.

I have done this on ford sectors to get me thru a year till finding suitable used ones.

Not something I would brag about, but I have mowed many fields with a ford with welded sector gear teeth.

I'd also like to point out that I have at least one box I rebuilt ( and still use ), that when i took it apart to rebuild, it had teeth that were obviously chipped and had one with a good half tooth gone, and it was brazed up and filed down so long ago that it has worn smooth now and has nearly perfect shape of the rest of the teeth.. almost didn't notice it till i saw the yellow metal showing thru when i took them out of the parts washer.

just an idea.. and you have nothing to loose. some of those teeth look bad enough that all the pressure is on just a bit of metal, making them damage the worm, and ultimately damage the teeth even worse. IE.. setting up for a cascade failure.
 

Thank you, Soundguy, for the reply and advice. With more and more folks chiming in who's opinion I really value saying that I shouldn't use it as it is has me really thinking against trying it exactly the way it sits.

I don't have a welder or anything like that and have never used one so I think it's probably time to get in contact with my half arse mechanic and see if he can do that for me. That way I at least have a better chance of it working using this same shaft.

I sincerely appreciate everybody's response. I hope to be able to get around purchasing another steering box so I think I'm going to contact my mechanic and see if he'll be able to fix the shaft up a little bit. I will relay what Soundguy suggested so hopefully he'll do it per that advice.

I can't thank you all enough, it means a lot to me.
 
good luck.

Unless your guy is a real great brazer.. I'd suggest welding. ( i weld better than I braze, and I solder better than I weld ).

Welding should put less heat to the part.

If the guy is decent a couple laid down passes, then some die grinder and then file work and it should match .. at least better than it is. right now with it broke out, all the stresses are distributed on less surface area making more pressure at the contact areas. getting that spread out should help. just don't get it into interference levels.. IE.. to much, otherwise it will bind, and put extra stress onthe welded portions.

this will be one of those 'little bit of weld, lotsa file and grinding' type jobs.

Good luck. I hear ya on trying to save some ca$h. It's tight everywhere.
 

Thank you, Soundguy. I really appreciate you taking the time to go into detail for me to better understand the process. He's not at the shop today, hence "half arse", so it looks like I'll take it up to him tomorrow to look at it. And I'll ask him specifically to follow your instructions carefully. I'm thankful for this forum and the helpful people that keep it going. The advice, words of encouragement and the real life experiences are appreciated more than words can describe. Thank you guy so much. I will report back for sure.
 
Hard to see the reasoning in some of the
advice here.
It's an old tractor. What happened to
making do and getting another 10 years out
of it? You have the bearings coming for
$70. Gamble and see if it does the job.
$600 for a used box is a lot of money - at
least it us to me.
Oh, and if anyone tells you you can weld or
braze that that up, thank them for their
advice and then Run. Because they don't
know what they're talking about.
 
Ultradog, thank you sincerely for your reply and your honest thoughts on the situation. I feel like you do, I'd hate to throw away $70 because money has been tight lately but I would kick myself in the butt if I saved up enough money to buy a rebuilt box with ball nut and I could have got away with another couple years of use with just the $70 bearings and seals. If it doesn't work at all or for very long than at least I know that I tried.

I did want to know what you all thought as I know some of you gentlemen have more years working on tractors than I have been on this earth. I value you all's opinion and was prepared to hear and and all sides of the coin. Whether it was what I wanted to or didn't want to hear.

Ultradog, for my education purposes, do you mind going into further detail as to why welding or brazing would not work? I'd appreciate it as I'm obviously in the learning stages and it sounded reasonable to me but I have no experience doing anything like it. Thank you for the reply!!
 
To begin with it would take some very
precise welding to place the filler
material exactly where it needs to go
without goobering up the rest if the gear.
A TIG welder might do it but it would be
fine work.
Then you would need to grind the excess
weld back out to a fairly precise profile
or else the gear will bind. To do that
free hand with say a die grinder or some
such would take a steady, practiced hand.
Lastly, the gear is likely case hardened
and welding or brazing on it would anneal
the hardness.
Could it be done?
I suppose it could. Somewhere... But it's
not a job that could be done even at most
machine shops and it definately couldn't
be adequately done by Bubba on home
equipment.
 
pretty rough looking gear.
but, I'm with UltraDog on this one.
My stuff, no money, I have it apart, so I know how..more than once if need be.
I'd get out my little die grinder and get to it....patiently with a light touch.
All I want to do is remove any burrs on breaks.
put it back together, fill it with semi-fluid grease.
and the drive it accordingly, with the gear pictured in my head.
no 2 handed muscle with the tires buried in mud.
bet it'll be fine
 
(quoted from post at 06:20:21 10/09/15) To begin with it would take some very
precise welding to place the filler
material exactly where it needs to go
without goobering up the rest if the gear.
A TIG welder might do it but it would be
fine work.
Then you would need to grind the excess
weld back out to a fairly precise profile
or else the gear will bind. To do that
free hand with say a die grinder or some
such would take a steady, practiced hand.
Lastly, the gear is likely case hardened
and welding or brazing on it would anneal
the hardness.
Could it be done?
I suppose it could. Somewhere... But it's
not a job that could be done even at most
machine shops and it definately couldn't
be adequately done by Bubba on home
equipment.

Depends on he Back Yard Bob. Some have better toys than others. But it won't be as strong or wear as well as the original. In a steering sector it may buy you a few years grace but it wouldn't be cheap. Send it to me and I'll do the job for - Hmmmmm - $600 :roll:

TOH

g13.JPG


g23.JPG


g28.JPG
 

Ultradog, thank you for the explanation. I can understand why you'd suggest to not have it welded as it sounds like it will take a very skilled person to complete the task properly. I appreciate you going into detail so I can better understand the reasoning behind why you suggest that.

NoNewParts, I appreciate your response and advice as well. With the help of you all I believe I've made the decision to try the bearing and seals and as you suggested I'll drive the tractor with it's current situation in mind. I'll be as easy on it as possible and hope to get some use out of it before having to make the final decision to get another box.

TOH, you are among the folks on here who I highly value and respect your opinion as I know you are very educated and skilled. You may be right about me throwing money away on trying the bearings and I'll be the first to say you told me so if it happens to work out that way. If I had the extra money, I would have ordered the other box style yesterday, but since I don't I'm going to try to put this one back together and hope for the best. I really appreciate your continued advice, I really do. I also would like to thank you for the link you posted. That is very interesting. That gear was in terrible shape before they fixed it.


Thank you all very much!!!
 
(quoted from post at 08:35:03 10/09/15)
Ultradog, thank you for the explanation. I can understand why you'd suggest to not have it welded as it sounds like it will take a very skilled person to complete the task properly. I appreciate you going into detail so I can better understand the reasoning behind why you suggest that.

NoNewParts, I appreciate your response and advice as well. With the help of you all I believe I've made the decision to try the bearing and seals and as you suggested I'll drive the tractor with it's current situation in mind. I'll be as easy on it as possible and hope to get some use out of it before having to make the final decision to get another box.

TOH, you are among the folks on here who I highly value and respect your opinion as I know you are very educated and skilled. You may be right about me throwing money away on trying the bearings and I'll be the first to say you told me so if it happens to work out that way. If I had the extra money, I would have ordered the other box style yesterday, but since I don't I'm going to try to put this one back together and hope for the best. I really appreciate your continued advice, I really do. I also would like to thank you for the link you posted. That is very interesting. That gear was in terrible shape before they fixed it.


Thank you all very much!!!

I understand and appreciate your bidget issues. Put the old one back together and see how it goes. Based on my experience I expect it will skip under load but I could be wrong - certainly wouldn't be the first time. If it doesn't you are good to go. If it does you are into the next phase.

TOH
 

That's what I'll do. I appreciate your continued help. When the parts get in and I get it together I'll report back what I find. Thanks again!!
 
(quoted from post at 13:15:37 10/09/15) Nice setup TOH.
But you're not going to cut a helical gear
like he has with it.

That example was a simple spur gear and the first one I found. It illustrates that laying down the weld is not the issue and helical gear geometry is a minor complication. Guys truly worthy of the label "machinist" have been doing this for a century or more with simple setups and simple machines. An example of cutting a helical gear on a milling machine:

[u:5c2cedcc2e]Helical gear cutting[/u:5c2cedcc2e]

The helical pinion example I posted as a follow up was hand finished. Yeah - it was quite large so it was "easier" ;-)

TOH
 
Is there any chance that's a standard worm gear? Metric no doubt since it's Kubota, but you might be able to modify a catalog item. I've also had Boston Gear and Martin make me some specials for not a lot of money. It's easy for the guys with the right tools.

28785.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 21:42:54 10/09/15) Is there any chance that's a standard worm gear? Metric no doubt since it's Kubota, but you might be able to modify a catalog item. I've also had Boston Gear and Martin make me some specials for not a lot of money. It's easy for the guys with the right tools.

The sector gears are likely produced using the metric module system::

[b:aae9c67c4e]Metric Module = pitch diameter in millimeteres / number of teeth[/b:aae9c67c4e]

As opposed to the imperial system which commonly uses the diametral pitch system:

[b:aae9c67c4e]DP = number of teeth / pitch diamter in inches[/b:aae9c67c4e]

The module system can also used to specify imperial gearing in which case it is called the English module system:

[b:aae9c67c4e]English Module = pitch diameter in inches / number of teeth[/b:aae9c67c4e]

Note that the Module of a gear is an actual measurement (tooth spacing in either millimeters or inches) while diametral pitch is simply a ratio. Much like the difference between metric thread pitch and imperial threads per inch.

In all cases the gearing has an involute gear tooth profile and are standard offerings by people like Boston Gear or Martin. But given the design of the sectors I think it would be very unlikely you would find an OTS gear that you could graft onto the sector arms.

TOH
 

Scout B, TOH - Thank you both for the replies and the educational information. What was said sounds like foreign language to me since I've never dealt with anything of this sort but I did gather from TOH's post that it doesn't sound likely that I'd be able to get another sector made to fit.

Thank you both for help!
 


I wanted to update this thread since I put the steering box back together today but first I want to thank every single person who responded and even those that didn't. This forum is a great group of people who don't mind taking the time to type out helpful information. For you I am very grateful.


I put the box back together today with the same shaft and sector gear and all new races, bearings and gaskets/seals. I stuffed the box full of regular extreme pressure hi temp grease. I know it's thicker than the suggested corn head grease and that's why I used it. I'm hoping that it'll keep the shaft and sector lubed up better than anything thinner. And in doing that hopefully it'll prolong the life of those extremely expensive parts. I did think about putting in a little gear oil with it to thin it down a little bit but I'm undecided if I want to do it.

I know the real test is the test of time so I'm going to use it and make sure I keep it full of grease and see what happens. At this point it turns very smooth so I'm hopeful but completely understand the possibility of needing further work.


Thank you all VERY much!!!
 
(quoted from post at 17:39:45 10/15/15)

I wanted to update this thread since I put the steering box back together today but first I want to thank every single person who responded and even those that didn't. This forum is a great group of people who don't mind taking the time to type out helpful information. For you I am very grateful.


I put the box back together today with the same shaft and sector gear and all new races, bearings and gaskets/seals. I stuffed the box full of regular extreme pressure hi temp grease. I know it's thicker than the suggested corn head grease and that's why I used it. I'm hoping that it'll keep the shaft and sector lubed up better than anything thinner. And in doing that hopefully it'll prolong the life of those extremely expensive parts. I did think about putting in a little gear oil with it to thin it down a little bit but I'm undecided if I want to do it.

I know the real test is the test of time so I'm going to use it and make sure I keep it full of grease and see what happens. At this point it turns very smooth so I'm hopeful but completely understand the possibility of needing further work.


Thank you all VERY much!!!


I don't want to jinx myself (knock on wood) but I'm still using the Kubota from time to time and the steering has been fine. I'm glad I replaced the bearings and seals and gave it a try. It was a lot cheaper than the alternative. Thanks again for everybody's help.
 
(quoted from post at 22:21:08 02/11/16)
(quoted from post at 17:39:45 10/15/15)

I wanted to update this thread since I put the steering box back together today but first I want to thank every single person who responded and even those that didn't. This forum is a great group of people who don't mind taking the time to type out helpful information. For you I am very grateful.


I put the box back together today with the same shaft and sector gear and all new races, bearings and gaskets/seals. I stuffed the box full of regular extreme pressure hi temp grease. I know it's thicker than the suggested corn head grease and that's why I used it. I'm hoping that it'll keep the shaft and sector lubed up better than anything thinner. And in doing that hopefully it'll prolong the life of those extremely expensive parts. I did think about putting in a little gear oil with it to thin it down a little bit but I'm undecided if I want to do it.

I know the real test is the test of time so I'm going to use it and make sure I keep it full of grease and see what happens. At this point it turns very smooth so I'm hopeful but completely understand the possibility of needing further work.


Thank you all VERY much!!!


I don't want to jinx myself (knock on wood) but I'm still using the Kubota from time to time and the steering has been fine. I'm glad I replaced the bearings and seals and gave it a try. It was a lot cheaper than the alternative. Thanks again for everybody's help.

Glad it's working for you. Now that you are experienced why don't you come by here and rebuild the cylinders on my loader. I have the OEM seals and a nice clean spot on the bench all ready to go ;-)

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 05:51:32 02/12/16)
(quoted from post at 22:21:08 02/11/16)
(quoted from post at 17:39:45 10/15/15)

I wanted to update this thread since I put the steering box back together today but first I want to thank every single person who responded and even those that didn't. This forum is a great group of people who don't mind taking the time to type out helpful information. For you I am very grateful.


I put the box back together today with the same shaft and sector gear and all new races, bearings and gaskets/seals. I stuffed the box full of regular extreme pressure hi temp grease. I know it's thicker than the suggested corn head grease and that's why I used it. I'm hoping that it'll keep the shaft and sector lubed up better than anything thinner. And in doing that hopefully it'll prolong the life of those extremely expensive parts. I did think about putting in a little gear oil with it to thin it down a little bit but I'm undecided if I want to do it.

I know the real test is the test of time so I'm going to use it and make sure I keep it full of grease and see what happens. At this point it turns very smooth so I'm hopeful but completely understand the possibility of needing further work.


Thank you all VERY much!!!


I don't want to jinx myself (knock on wood) but I'm still using the Kubota from time to time and the steering has been fine. I'm glad I replaced the bearings and seals and gave it a try. It was a lot cheaper than the alternative. Thanks again for everybody's help.

Glad it's working for you. Now that you are experienced why don't you come by here and rebuild the cylinders on my loader. I have the OEM seals and a nice clean spot on the bench all ready to go ;-)

TOH

lol! If I knew how to and we were in each other's area I'd be on my way right now, TOH. I more than owe it to you all! Thanks for all of your ongoing help!
 

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