Fried starter

Rick (Ohio) · Aug 30, 2015

i went out this morning to start my (1951) 8N. Smelled something hot and noticed smoke and sparks coming out of the starter. Heavy dew this morning may have contributed to the problem. I let it dry off and cool off and tried it again after church. Same result. Assuming now that my starter is fried. My question is - the gentleman who owned the tractor before me converted it to 12 volts. Do I need to find a 12 volt starter?

Mad Farmer · Aug 30, 2015

No

You can use 12V to start in a pinch.

If you don't get a complete unit make sure your drive fits up

cowdog · Aug 30, 2015

The 6 volt starters work till they burn up. Just as well take it tp a good starter shop and see of it is repairable. I would have it converted to 12 if I were you. I had it done on my 2N and have never lookwd back.

old · Aug 30, 2015

Only factory starter for it will be 6 volts since there was never an N series that came out as 12 volts. Ya you might be able to find one that is said to be 12 volts but why pay more for it. 6 volts ones work just fine you just should not hold the starter button down for more then maybe a minute at a time to keep from burning it out.

Rick (Ohio) · Aug 30, 2015

Thanks to all who took the time to reply. I'm a newbie at this whole tractor thing so I'm definitely on a steep learning curve. I bought my 8n at a farm sale recently because I've always wanted to own a tractor but mostly because the owner (deceased) was a friend of mine. I appreciate all the help.

cowdog · Aug 30, 2015

Started shop can put differant field coils in it for 12 volts. I have had it done a number of times.

Bob · Aug 30, 2015

Before throwing a new starter at it, take a look at what is going on.

NORMALLY, you can't see "sparks coming out of the starter" because there should be a steel band around the starter with insulating paper inside it that hides what's going on inside!

Is the band missing so you can see inside the starter?

Is the band present, but has hole(s) burned in it because the last guy in there didn't replace the insulating paper and a brush lead or other "hot" electrical part inside has touched the band and burned through>

Has the steel band slipped and is contacting the power stud terminal that passes though the housing of the starter?

It is even POSSIBLE there is sparking between any of the three sections of the starter, or between the "drive end" endbell of the starter and the cast iron it's bolted to because of rust, paint, dirt, or corrosion causing a poor ground.

Post a photo of what is sparking, if you can.

tesmith66 · Aug 31, 2015

I've been blasting my old 6V starter with 12V for a decade now. When's it gonna burn up?

Rick (Ohio) · Aug 31, 2015

If I did this right, there should be a photo of my starter. The bolt holding the solenoid bracket (ground) gets red hot when you try to start it and burns the paint off. As you can see, the inside of the starter is exposed and I think some moisture (dew) got in there. There was also some black smoke and a few pops and sparks coming out the the opening. I'm guessing that something in the starter is shorting to ground.
If I have to remove the starter (and I'm guessing at this point, I do), there's a stopcock directly in the path of the inside bolt. I hope I can get the bolt out far enough to remove the starter. Anyone have experience with this???

Bob · Aug 31, 2015

Rick, what you are calling "The bolt holding the solenoid bracket (ground)" is actually the copper "buss bar" that carries current from the solenoid to the starter.

The fact that it is getting hot at only one end tells us the connection there is loose/dirty/corroded.

While it is certainly possible that the starter is internally shorted, before giving up on it you need to carefully remove the nuts holding the copper bar in place and polish it clean at the connection areas, as well as the nuts at the starter connection, or replace them, snug things up and try the starter again.

WARNING... the threaded studs at the starter an solenoid are copper and easy to strip/break/damage.

When loosening, use some penetrating oil and go easy, working them tight and loose a bit to loosen them up.

R Geiger · Aug 31, 2015

If you have to remove the starter, the petcock will have to be removed.
Also be advised that the solenoid that you have is not original equipment and the starter switch may not be either or the key switch.
Other than that , do like Bob is saying.

Rick (Ohio) · Aug 31, 2015

Just to make sure we're both on the same page. Its at ground (negative) when the key starter switch is off.

Bob · Aug 31, 2015

Yep, as it should be. (In a similar vein, the "hot" wire to a headlamp is at ground potential when the light is "off".)

Now, clean the darned thing up, already, and give it a try!

Rick (Ohio) · Sep 2, 2015

Wire-brushed the connection points on the bus bar until they were shiny as a new penny. Bought new nuts & bolts. Unfortunately none of this helped. A few clicks and a whiff of smoke out of the opening. The bolt on that end of the bus bar didn't seem to get hot this time. So I'm assuming that the starter has to come off. Can I take the starter apart and see if it can be repaired? If I have to remove the petcock in front of the starter; does it just screw into the engine block? Is there anything going to pour out (oil/, etc.) when I do?

NoNewParts · Sep 2, 2015

is this engine turning over at all?
will it turn over by hand?

a jammed starter or something jamming the engine will get things redhot at the starter pretty quick

Rick (Ohio) · Sep 2, 2015

[The engine does not turn over. Don't see/know of any way to turn it over by hand.

JMOR · Sep 2, 2015

(quoted from post at 14:06:34 09/02/15) [The engine does not turn over. Don't see/know of any way to turn it over by hand.

ne hand on a fan blade & one on the belt will turn the engine. Also, shift into highest gear,4, and grab those rear ag-bar tires and rock back & forth & this will turn engine.

Drain cock screws out & all the coolant will follow.

Rick (Ohio) · Sep 2, 2015

(quoted from post at 09:42:49 08/31/15)
If you have to remove the starter, the petcock will have to be removed.
Also be advised that the solenoid that you have is not original equipment and the starter switch may not be either or the key switch.
Other than that , do like Bob is saying.

When I remove the petcock then the coolant will drain out??? Also, can I remove the starter without removing the oil filter assembly?/

Rick (Ohio) · Sep 11, 2015

(quoted from post at 06:50:16 09/02/15) is this engine turning over at all?
will it turn over by hand?

a jammed starter or something jamming the engine will get things redhot at the starter pretty quick

Right on the money! The starter was jammed. As soon as I removed it, I could turn the engine over easily. I think this may have been the original starter even though the previous owner had converted it over to 12 volts. Anyway, I decided to buy a new afer-market 12v starter from YT. Should be arriving any day. When I install the new starter, do I just work the gear and spring past the flywheel until it seats against the engine block? I guess you just have to trust that everything ends up where its supposed to be.

JMOR · Sep 11, 2015

(quoted from post at 08:46:37 09/11/15)

(quoted from post at 06:50:16 09/02/15) is this engine turning over at all?
will it turn over by hand?

a jammed starter or something jamming the engine will get things redhot at the starter pretty quick

Click to expand...

Right on the money! The starter was jammed. As soon as I removed it, I could turn the engine over easily. I think this may have been the original starter even though the previous owner had converted it over to 12 volts. Anyway, I decided to buy a new afer-market 12v starter from YT. Should be arriving any day. When I install the new starter, do I just work the gear and spring past the flywheel until it seats against the engine block? I guess you just have to trust that everything ends up where its supposed to be.

hen the new one jams, just un-jam it (rocking, loosening, etc.), rather than by another.

Bruce (VA) · Sep 11, 2015

Means you're a new user, allow me to make a suggestion.

" Anyway, I decided to buy a new afer-market 12v starter "

Chances are the starter shaft was dirty, not letting the bendix retract. Or, perhaps the bendix was bad.

Regardless, you probably didn't need to buy a new starter.

So, next time you run into a problem w/ the tractor, learn to troubleshoot the problem before you start buying parts.

There are two schools of thought when it comes to getting a non-running tractor to start. One way is to just start replacing every part you can get to until it starts or you run out of money. The other way is to take a step-by-step approach to solving the problem, working from most likely to least likely. The trick to fixing these tractors (or trouble shooting any piece of equipment) is to be systematic about it. You need to isolate the problem step by step and work from most likely to least likely.

Step number one as JMOR said is to free the bendix. If it keeps sticking, figure out why it's sticking.
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