Drain or don't drain?

Big Trees · Aug 25, 2015

Hey everyone, I have a recently acquired 1950(?) 8N that had, what I was told by the seller, a hydraulic leak and that was the reason the lift would not hold in a raised position. I have barely used the tractor as I had to rebuild the steering box and carburetor. When I started it up yesterday to fine tune the carb that was rebuilt I tried raising the 3pt while I was moving with the pto engaged and the lift would not raise but the brush hog was mowing. It had been raising but never held since I bought it. I checked the fluid and there is water in the fluid.

My question is, should I drain the fluid immediately and put new fluid in to diagnose?

Or just try to diagnose with the water down fluid in there now?

My initial instinct is to try to diagnose like it is but I don't want to make anything worse if new oil would be better.

Thank you in advance!

pikewi · Aug 25, 2015

Drain and replace.

souNdguy · Aug 25, 2015

here's the deal. with water in the fluid, if the lift was otherwise working, it would lift.. but under extreme pressure and heat, the water will make it do odd things. corrosion being one of them, and theus when things corode, they hang. water also emulsifies oil, and that can gum up some stuff.

do this. remov ethe inspection cover, get a load on the 3pt, engage pto, be in neutral, lift the lift, make sure the control rod is moving full the valve full in and out as you move the 3pt lever.

many times it will hang, and you will not get full in and out, following the 3pt handle.

if it is not moving, nudge the rod with a tool ( not your hand! - no hands in the sump - moving parts.. danger danger! ), if that makes the lift come up or drop ( depending on which way you move it ), then the system is working, just sticky.

If so, drain the oil hot, dump in 3-3.5g diesel or kerosene, 3 qts atf fluid, and about 4 pints of preferably 91% or higher rubbing alcohol.. now go make a victory lap around the yard to get it all nice and mixed and sloshed around.

drain the flush.. let it drip a while.

now refill with clean oil.

if it wasn't a sticky linkage, post back before the flush with observations and more info before proceeding

Big Trees · Aug 25, 2015

(quoted from post at 10:59:35 08/25/15) here's the deal. with water in the fluid, if the lift was otherwise working, it would lift.. but under extreme pressure and heat, the water will make it do odd things. corrosion being one of them, and theus when things corode, they hang. water also emulsifies oil, and that can gum up some stuff.

do this. remov ethe inspection cover, get a load on the 3pt, engage pto, be in neutral, lift the lift, make sure the control rod is moving full the valve full in and out as you move the 3pt lever.

many times it will hang, and you will not get full in and out, following the 3pt handle.

if it is not moving, nudge the rod with a tool ( not your hand! - no hands in the sump - moving parts.. danger danger! ), if that makes the lift come up or drop ( depending on which way you move it ), then the system is working, just sticky.

If so, drain the oil hot, dump in 3-3.5g diesel or kerosene, 3 qts atf fluid, and about 4 pints of preferably 91% or higher rubbing alcohol.. now go make a victory lap around the yard to get it all nice and mixed and sloshed around.

drain the flush.. let it drip a while.

now refill with clean oil.

if it wasn't a sticky linkage, post back before the flush with observations and more info before proceeding

pikewi, thank you for the reply and suggestion.

Soundguy, I will follow your advice exactly and I will report back. Thank you for the response and advice, very much appreciated.

Big Trees · Aug 25, 2015

Also, I have cracked the plugs on the bottom (on the 2nd one now) and I'm letting the settled water drip out. Not sure if it's wasting time or wishful thinking but I'm doing that also.

Thanks again!!

souNdguy · Aug 25, 2015

less waterin the sump is less water to deal with at flushing.

drain off any liquid water.. run a bit to warm.. drain, fill with flush, agitate, drain, drip dry

, refill.

Big Trees · Aug 25, 2015

(quoted from post at 11:42:31 08/25/15) less waterin the sump is less water to deal with at flushing.

drain off any liquid water.. run a bit to warm.. drain, fill with flush, agitate, drain, drip dry , refill.

Alright, for whatever reason, whether it's coincidence or just the way things go. I did as you said, pulled cover and started in neutral and engaged pto and pulled the quadrant lever. Unlike last night, this time the brush hog lifted up as it has been doing since I bought it.

Was it the water I let drip out? I doubt it going by what you said, it should have worked, water or not.

I'm not sure. One thing I do know is I need to drain and clean as you suggested and refill with new oil. I also know I need to get my issue with the lift coming down addressed but that's another thread lol.

I appreciate your help and I will drain and clean the system as you described above.

Thank you very much!!

souNdguy · Aug 25, 2015

doesn't surprise me it worked now but not earlier.

junk in the oil, dirt, water, etc, can certaintly make parts stick.

cleaning that oil up will be good.

Big Trees · Aug 25, 2015

(quoted from post at 12:43:51 08/25/15) doesn't surprise me it worked now but not earlier.

junk in the oil, dirt, water, etc, can certaintly make parts stick.

cleaning that oil up will be good.

Great, I plan to get oil tomorrow and drain. Thanks a lot, soundguy!

Pikwi, your reply is also very much appreciated.

This whole forum is very helpful and people like me are very thankful for that.

old · Aug 25, 2015

Buy a bottle of heet and pour it in before you drain it out and run it a bit to mix it up. The heet will sock up the water so it will then drain out better

Big Trees · Aug 25, 2015

(quoted from post at 13:06:59 08/25/15) Buy a bottle of heet and pour it in before you drain it out and run it a bit to mix it up. The heet will sock up the water so it will then drain out better

I will surely do just that, thank you very much, old!

pikewi · Aug 25, 2015

Like soundguy said- it will act odd with water in it. Good cleaning and new oil should do it. Glad it isn't anything major. Good luck
Pike

steve19438 · Aug 25, 2015

I once bought an 8N that the hyd. did not work. the hyd. oil was milky. changed the oil and the hyd. worked just fine thereafter.

Big Trees · Aug 25, 2015

Thank you both for your reply and experience. I'm thankful it wasn't something more serious as well. I appreciate you fine gentlemen.

ASEguy · Aug 26, 2015

I would drain it out. After seeing what came out of my '49, I'd drop the pump and clean it out too.

Big Trees · Aug 26, 2015

(quoted from post at 04:13:32 08/26/15) I would drain it out. After seeing what came out of my '49, I'd drop the pump and clean it out too.

I was considering doing that but since I hadn't taken the pump out before I was a little hesitant to do it but I don't think I'll have a problem. I think I will do that. Thanks for the advice.

souNdguy · Aug 26, 2015

for sure.

I pressure washed my N sumps out with the covers off.

8n was decent though did have some crud in the pump area.

2n was frightening.. 1" gunk

Big Trees · Aug 26, 2015

(quoted from post at 08:12:41 08/26/15) for sure.

I pressure washed my N sumps out with the covers off.

8n was decent though did have some crud in the pump area.

2n was frightening.. 1" gunk

Thanks for that suggestion as well, I'll power wash the inside. That is with the bottom cover off as well, correct? I'll be doing this tomorrow when I run and get oil.

I appreciate the help from everybody!

souNdguy · Aug 26, 2015

Bottom cover is the pump. To get that off, pro comes out as well. Need to have all gaskets on hand... This isn't an rtv thing, top and bottom gasket hold hyd pressure in front right corner

Big Trees · Aug 26, 2015

(quoted from post at 13:52:13 08/26/15) Bottom cover is the pump. To get that off, pro comes out as well. Need to have all gaskets on hand... This isn't an rtv thing, top and bottom gasket hold hyd pressure in front right corner

Alright, I appreciate the explanation. I went and got oil, ATV fluid, 91% alcohol and was planning on doing the flush in the morning so I'll probably wait to take out the pump until a time sometime soon. I need to get this flushed soon and start looking at the wobbly front wheels. I need to get the angle blade on the back of it and get working on our road.

I appreciate all of your help, soundguy.

Hobo,NC · Aug 26, 2015

Whut he said,,, the diagnostic taint that hard to do :idea: ... Waist your time your money there is no silver bullet in some of the chit folks dream up...

Before my buds get in arse kick'N mode and Y'all preach diagnostics ARE THEY THAT DAMM HARD TO DO :!: are do y'all get a hard on having some one waste time and material...

Big Trees · Aug 26, 2015

(quoted from post at 19:03:30 08/26/15)
Whut he said,,, the diagnostic taint that hard to do :idea: ... Waist your time your money there is no silver bullet in some of the chit folks dream up...

Before my buds get in arse kick'N mode and Y'all preach diagnostics ARE THEY THAT DAMM HARD TO DO :!: are do y'all get a hard on having some one waste time and material...

I'm only running on 3 hours of sleep, Hobo, so please forgive me but I didn't pick up what you were putting down. Are you saying I should take out the pump and do the gaskets?

I don't have a problem doing that it's just I need to start working on the road ASAP. It's not getting any better lol.

Hobo,NC · Aug 27, 2015

Find out why it will not hold the lift up... There is no magic potion that I know of that will repair a leaking lift...

Deep down I bet everyone knows in the end the pump and lift cover is coming out/off sooner are later even if the magic works its temporary... I would not waist $100 are so on a temporary roll of the dice...

The info you were provided was well said till the bat whiskers, mummified toenails, black cat fat, vampire blood, gargoyle sweat, troll teeth, broom sweepings part...

You are not helping by stating your inconvenience... The magic may just keep it from freezing till you can do better we are coming up on that time of the year... The diesel will help disperse the water I have used that trick a few times were coolant got into the crank case it does work its magic

. Your issue may have been caused by water my point is the damage has been done...

Big Trees · Aug 27, 2015

(quoted from post at 05:18:56 08/27/15) Find out why it will not hold the lift up... There is no magic potion that I know of that will repair a leaking lift...

Deep down I bet everyone knows in the end the pump and lift cover is coming out/off sooner are later even if the magic works its temporary... I would not waist $100 are so on a temporary roll of the dice...

The info you were provided was well said till the bat whiskers, mummified toenails, black cat fat, vampire blood, gargoyle sweat, troll teeth, broom sweepings part...

You are not helping by stating your inconvenience... The magic may just keep it from freezing till you can do better we are coming up on that time of the year... The diesel will help disperse the water I have used that trick a few times were coolant got into the crank case it does work its magic . Your issue may have been caused by water my point is the damage has been done...

Ok, I understand now. Just to be clear, I would like my lift to work properly but that's not what I'm expecting to happen if I flush it out. The only thing I'm expecting to get out of the flush is clean fluid instead of watered down fluid.

I have a feeling the tractor will be parked for another month if I have to fix the "dropping hydraulics" before I use it.

I have gasket material here from when I used it for shims on the steering box. Maybe I'll make some gaskets for the covers instead of buying them.

I will be cleaning it out and maybe I should just drop the pump out also.

I'm also a little hesitant because I've never done it before and don't want to mess anything up. I felt the same way about the steering box but it wasn't as hard as I was expecting.

Thank you for the reply and advice, Hobo. I appreciate it.

Hobo,NC · Aug 27, 2015

I got that same feeling maybe you should be rounding up stuff for a flush and tackle the pump and lift cover when things are slower...

Forgo that thought about rolling yer own gaskets this is not a steering box :!:

Big Trees · Aug 27, 2015

(quoted from post at 06:11:08 08/27/15)
I got that same feeling maybe you should be rounding up stuff for a flush and tackle the pump and lift cover when things are slower...

Forgo that thought about rolling yer own gaskets this is not a steering box :!:

That's what I'm going to do,Hobo. I have the stuff needed to flush and will be doing it soon today. And I will buy the cover gaskets instead of making them. Thank you very much for you help. Without you guys I'd be lost.

Thank you.

souNdguy · Aug 27, 2015

as I understood it, he was going to at least take the top cover off, if not the pump too.

Big Trees · Aug 27, 2015

(quoted from post at 07:23:38 08/27/15) as I understood it, he was going to at least take the top cover off, if not the pump too.

Yes, after you suggested to do so I was going to take the pump out and clean it also. Then when I found out I would have to get gaskets too then I started considering flushing without taking the bottom cover off.

Getting the gaskets themselves isn't a big deal but considering how long the tractor has been sitting with our road needing work done makes me want to flush and refill and do some grading.

I know I need to address why the hydraulics are not staying lifted but my thought is I could at least use them to grade the road and then fix the problem during a time when no work is needed done.

Also, my front wheels wobble at almost any speed so I'm trying to look into that today as well. Just have so much to do and not enough time to do it in. I'm looking over old threads about wheel wobble now and I think I might have to order parts for that and if that's the case I'll order gaskets also.

So, if I can get away with doing some adjusting and getting rid of the wheel wobble then I would just flush and refill and start working. But if I think I have to order parts to get rid of wheel wobble then I'll just wait on flushing until I get the gaskets with the suspension parts.

souNdguy · Aug 27, 2015

keep in mind, the top cover has a gasket too, it's not an rtv job.

if nothing else, get the water out.. but that flush won't fix any mechanical problems really. about the only thing it will do is get the water ouut, and maybee flush some grit out of control valve or relief.

if you are real lucky, that might help.

Big Trees · Aug 27, 2015

(quoted from post at 07:45:26 08/27/15) keep in mind, the top cover has a gasket too, it's not an rtv job.

if nothing else, get the water out.. but that flush won't fix any mechanical problems really. about the only thing it will do is get the water ouut, and maybee flush some grit out of control valve or relief.

if you are real lucky, that might help.

Ok, I'll leave the top and bottom covers on and give it a flush as directed. I'll also get the power washer and spray also. I will be addressing the mechanical problem on it in the near future, just wasn't planning on doing it now.

I do appreciate all of your help. That goes to everybody.

Big Trees · Aug 27, 2015

I'm about to do my "victory lap" and was wondering if I should/should not raise the pto while I'm doing this lap?

I think yes but not sure if it will do anything at all or if it would damage anything.

Thanks in advance!

Big Trees · Aug 27, 2015

(quoted from post at 12:08:58 08/27/15)

I'm about to do my "victory lap" and was wondering if I should/should not raise the pto while I'm doing this lap?

I think yes but not sure if it will do anything at all or if it would damage anything.

Thanks in advance!

In case somebody reading doesn't know what I'm referring to. I was speaking about the lap around the yard with the diesel flush in the tractor. Not sure if I should use the hydraulics or not. I don't want to do it and I'm not supposed to.

Thanks

carlntexas · Aug 27, 2015

No don't use the hydralics you could damage the pump with no oil in there.

Big Trees · Aug 27, 2015

(quoted from post at 12:47:52 08/27/15) No don't use the hydralics you could damage the pump with no oil in there.

Thank you , carlntexas!! That's why I was waiting until I got a response because I didn't want to mess anything up. I appreciate your response!!

Hobo,NC · Aug 27, 2015

This is gonna hurt me play'N with a flusher... Temptation...

I would have to work the lift at least one time maybe a few times to flush it out... It may not pump/lift that's OK don't stay with it...Those pumps are so sloppy I doubt it would hurt it beyond any ware/damage it already has...

Big Trees · Aug 27, 2015

(quoted from post at 14:05:57 08/27/15)
This is gonna hurt me play'N with a flusher... Temptation...

I would have to work the lift at least one time maybe a few times to flush it out... It may not pump/lift that's OK don't stay with it...Those pumps are so sloppy I doubt it would hurt it beyond any ware/damage it already has...

Hobo, your reasoning is exactly why I wanted to lift it. I thought it may flush out places that won't get touched if the lift was down. But at this point it's a little too late. I did my lap and drained it out. Sprayed with the pressure washer and I'm letting it drip dry now.

I hate doing a flush and not walking away with a completely functioning lift but that was going to take work that quite frankly I don't feel like getting into just yet. Very soon is no problem but right now would have been a little bit of a inconvenience since I would have probably been working on it for the next week. It's not if but how many speed bumps does a greenhorn like me run into lol.

If I was a pro like you guys, it would be a walk in the park but to somebody who just entered the tractor world a month ago, it's a little daunting at times.

But without you all I wouldn't of been able to accomplish anything. I'll forever be grateful for the help you all are. I don't think you all understand how much help you all are.

Thank you.

Hobo,NC · Aug 27, 2015

Dagum'it I wanted to know if the lift would work with the potion..
I don't understand why anyone would be skeered of it damaging the pump but not be skeered of it not damaging anything else...

I would have not watered it down after the flush I don't understated the reasoning behind it on a closed system... Do you :?:

Ell do it again moe is better right...

Big Trees · Aug 27, 2015

(quoted from post at 18:41:40 08/27/15)
Dagum'it I wanted to know if the lift would work with the potion..
I don't understand why anyone would be skeered of it damaging the pump but not be skeered of it not damaging anything else...

I would have not watered it down after the flush I don't understated the reasoning behind it on a closed system... Do you :?:

Ell do it again moe is better right...

lol You crack me up, Hobo. I wanted to do it, I really did. But I had doubts and hesitation and I didn't want it to mess it up. When it was confirmed that I shouldn't do it then my mind was made up.

As far as spraying it afterwards and making sense, you could have told me either way and it would have made sense because I don't know the physics of the system. I let it dry out pretty good and refilled it and the lift seems to be working fine. It still drifts down but not as fast. Not sure if it's because the angle blade that's on it now isn't as heavy as the brush hog.

LOL @ "moe is better" haha

Drain or don't drain?

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