Never havta change oil again?

POPGUN

Member
Will I ever need to change oil in my tractors? If anybody knows how strict CA. is with disposing of all fluids from the internal combustion engine I think I have a way to beat the problem. Could one change all his tractors over to Mobil 1 Syn---------they claim it goes 15K before it needs changed in cars and trucks. I dont change my car or truck oil in less then 7500 mi. even with conventional 10-40. Seems to me 15K wear and tear would take forever on a L-Head. And I think they have syn gear lube and Prestone has an extend life anti-freeze, 5 yrs-------- thats a lot of years in tractor years. When I buy a used outfit I change oil and anti freeze but after that I have never changed my anti freeze in anything and all my anti-freeze tests fine spring and fall,year after year, even when I do a water pump, hose or radiator repair I put the drain fluid back in.
 
A couple of years ago I switched EVERYTHING to synthetic. There are a few University studies that are worth reading (Google). The road vehicles, I change the FILTER at 15,000Kms (and add), change at 45,000Kms. The rest of the stuff (including my JD 60) it's gonna be a few years. The stuff stays clean and has pretty good lubrication properties. Probly saved $500 so far. HTH
 
(quoted from post at 18:48:35 08/25/15) Will I ever need to change oil in my tractors? If anybody knows how strict CA. is with disposing of all fluids from the internal combustion engine I think I have a way to beat the problem. Could one change all his tractors over to Mobil 1 Syn---------they claim it goes 15K before it needs changed in cars and trucks. I dont change my car or truck oil in less then 7500 mi. even with conventional 10-40. Seems to me 15K wear and tear would take forever on a L-Head. And I think they have syn gear lube and Prestone has an extend life anti-freeze, 5 yrs-------- thats a lot of years in tractor years. When I buy a used outfit I change oil and anti freeze but after that I have never changed my anti freeze in anything and all my anti-freeze tests fine spring and fall,year after year, even when I do a water pump, hose or radiator repair I put the drain fluid back in.

In general you can get 10K or more off a top quality synthetic BUT every OEM I know of says change after 12 months if you don't get the mileage. Oil collects a lot of undesirable "additives" just sitting in the crankcase.

In terms of extended mileage claims you can't always believe what the oil marketing departments tell you. There are many, many used oil anlaysis results published over on BITOG that clearly demonstrate that regardless of brand or formulation a top quality synthetic begins to show signs of significant degradation around 10K miles. Loss of additive content and viscosity loss due to shear are two primary performance factors that you see in all of them.

TOH
 
I was re-introduced to oil analysis this past summer attending the "Instructor Update Seminar" at UNOH with a class taught by Dusty Wright of Sheaffer oil. Now I've got to find a local lab to test mine.

The gyst was 3k miles and the oil is still good (typically) and API certification is important &, you get what you pay for.... The newly rebuilt 3cyl is getting full synthetic on it's next oil change.
 
(quoted from post at 18:48:35 08/25/15) Will I ever need to change oil in my tractors? If anybody knows how strict CA. is with disposing of all fluids from the internal combustion engine I think I have a way to beat the problem. Could one change all his tractors over to Mobil 1 Syn---------they claim it goes 15K before it needs changed in cars and trucks. I dont change my car or truck oil in less then 7500 mi. even with conventional 10-40. Seems to me 15K wear and tear would take forever on a L-Head. And I think they have syn gear lube and Prestone has an extend life anti-freeze, 5 yrs-------- thats a lot of years in tractor years. When I buy a used outfit I change oil and anti freeze but after that I have never changed my anti freeze in anything and all my anti-freeze tests fine spring and fall,year after year, even when I do a water pump, hose or radiator repair I put the drain fluid back in.
hat is a no brainer! Never change it & when that engine dies replace it. More questions?
 
(quoted from post at 19:04:54 08/25/15)
You N is a different animal than your modern pic'em up truck...

This is very similar to what I was going to post about. I have put synthetic in our vehicles for a few years and when I got a older John Deere lawn tractor I called the dealer and asked if they recommended synthetic or regular oil. They suggested regular oil. I wondered the same about the N tractor. I'm glad this thread was made.
 
(quoted from post at 19:04:54 08/25/15)
You N is a different animal than your modern pic'em up truck...
You said it. Oil dont wear out. It gets dirty and the synthetic additives wear out or break down. Not to mentipn the acids and moisture etc that get introduced via operarions and repeated heating and cooling cycles. Might work for a trailer queen but it wont work very long for anything else. Perhaps extended mileage on strictly highway miles only. The first rule of maintenance is to clean it and keep it clean. Both outside and internally. oil is cheap. Get rid of the bums making the stupid rules
 
Conoco fleet, exxon xd 3, rotella, cenex tms are all made with base 3 stocks. There has actually been a court case won that says base 3 stocks have the same characteristics as symthetics. The reason for synthetic oil is the application today. Engines run Alot closer tolerances and synthetics deliver that protection. I would venture to say.the cost/ mile with syn is not much differant than convemtional and obviously and 8 n engine is not the same animal.
 
I have a story about synthetic oil. Back in the 70s a friend that I worked with bought a new Pontiac lemans. We had another fellow at work that was selling Amsoil. He talked my friend into using Amsoil in his new Pontiac, after it was broken in on regular oil. The selling point was long intervals between oil changes! My friend followed Amsoils reccomendations to the letter. He was moved to another department and I didn't see him for a couple years. When I did I thought about his car and asked him how the Amsoil was working out. He said that crap ruined my engine. It started using a lot of oil so he tried switching back to regular oil but it was too late. When he traded it off it was burning a lot of oil and the lifters were hung up and clattering. Two and one half years and about 30,000 miles the engine was shot. Now I don't know if they have improved it or not but personally I wouldn't oil my bicycle chain with it, I use a synthetic blend in my modern truck and car and it has worked well for me but I change my oil every 3000 miles. My f-150 has 153,000 miles on it and it doesn't use any oil. In my opinion regular oil changes are cheap insurance.
 
Amen. I had rhe exact same thing happen to a freighliner with a cat engine. Seat the rings with conventional. Switch to syn
Start using oil, switch back. Too late! It was between 20 and 30,000 for the new engine. That new engine has over 500,000 on it now. No problems. All conventional oil. I wouldnt ise the synthetic oil as J lube. Anyone who has A.I' d cows knows what that is used for.
 
I guess I'm not old enough to remember, but were these oil arguments around back in the day that they started putting detergents in oil, or when they started using multi-viscosity and additives in oil? I don't buy into most of complaints about synthetic oil use. There's a reason why oils are constantly changing, mainly because they are getting better and better, definitely not getting worse. Its not like we need to go back to using straight SAE30 non detergent dino oil in everything.

There's a lot that can be learned about regular oil, synthetic oil, viscosity and weights etc just by doing a little research and reading some articles, especially the myths on synthetic oils. If you want to be open minded, I don't think you would find much if any bad things to say about newer oils, particularly synthetics and blends.
 
I don't know how you are testing your antifreeze, but it has an additive package as well. Over time antifreeze becomes acidic and begins corroding components in the cooling system. That is the main reason for the service interval on it as well. I have done: head gaskets which were corroded through leaking outside the engine, water pumps due to impeller corrosion and not pushing coolant, freeze plugs eaten out and the list goes on.
 
I have been to countless schools on lune oil. You say be opwn minded. The only one that can be open mimded are the ones who dont know.. syn oil has its place for sure. I just dont buy the extended drain or no change theory at all. Thats stupid.
 
(quoted from post at 08:27:17 08/26/15)
(quoted from post at 19:04:54 08/25/15)
You N is a different animal than your modern pic'em up truck...
You said it. Oil dont wear out. It gets dirty and the synthetic additives wear out or break down. Not to mentipn the acids and moisture etc that get introduced via operarions and repeated heating and cooling cycles. Might work for a trailer queen but it wont work very long for anything else. Perhaps extended mileage on strictly highway miles only. The first rule of maintenance is to clean it and keep it clean. Both outside and internally. oil is cheap. Get rid of the bums making the stupid rules

It gets dirty WHY because the system is open to its surroundings unlike a modern engine that's sealed off and has a emission package that recycles the emitted contamination. NO it does not get it all but does a ell of a good job at it...

I have often thought about adding a PCV system to one and vent the engine back to the air cleaner BUT because of the seals used it may just draw more chit I don't need into the engine...

I like synthetics and can not explain why some engines don't accept it tho another of the same will. I have had a few issues with Conventional of different brands... I have seen 3/4 the customer would state use (lets say) Havoline are it will use oil I did not believe them BUT they returned a short time later and the engine needed a few qts :shock: I switched it back and the issue went away...

I service allot of engines those that have them serviced at regular intervals are happy campers, those that don't will pay the price... Changing oil is a lost leader for a low volume shop its not like I am flagging folks down to do a service... The only way I can make much of anything off a service is to buy in bulk are stock up when there is a sale. The more a brand of oil cost the less I make you can only squeeze so much blood out of a turnip...

For some its a feel good issue for others its not.
 
reading magazines and looking at company liturature on tje internet is not research. Thats is succuming to propagamda. Syn oil have there place. But I can buy alot of oil and filters for the price of an engine
, and still have an engine npt even half used up. If you are using this stuff hard on the dirt or on the gravel roads it is even more prevalent. Syn oil wont hold up period. Thats not out of a magazine, thats from experiance.
 
(quoted from post at 03:00:07 08/26/15) I guess I'm not old enough to remember, but were these oil arguments around back in the day that they started putting detergents in oil, or when they started using multi-viscosity and additives in oil? I don't buy into most of complaints about synthetic oil use. There's a reason why oils are constantly changing, mainly because they are getting better and better, definitely not getting worse. Its not like we need to go back to using straight SAE30 non detergent dino oil in everything.

There's a lot that can be learned about regular oil, synthetic oil, viscosity and weights etc just by doing a little research and reading some articles, especially the myths on synthetic oils. If you want to be open minded, I don't think you would find much if any bad things to say about newer oils, particularly synthetics and blends.

Lots of FUD and the Internet makes it all true ;-)

Group II base stocks are made by fractional distillation of crude oil. They have very limited performance characteristics and are largely used for blending lower quality and cheaper conventional engine oils.

Group III base stocks start life the same as Group II oils. They are fractionally distilled mineral oils but undergo additional refining (catalytic hydro-cracking, ISO dewaxing, ISO finishing, etc) that remove impurites that cannot be eliminated by fractional distillation alone and actually [b:d9c3bf9490][u:d9c3bf9490]alter[/u:d9c3bf9490][/b:d9c3bf9490] the molecular structure of the hydrocarbon chains in the mineral oil. This gives the refined oil a much higher viscosity index, increased film strength, and greater resistance to the chemical and physical breakdowns that ALL engine oils undergo while in service inside an internal combustion engine. Because these processes significantly alter the natural molecular structure of the mineral oil the very best Group III base oils with very high/ultra high viscosity indexes(VHVI/UHVI) qualify as synthetics and are the predominate base used to blend the "Synthetic" or "Synthetic Blend" engine oils you find on the shelf today.

Group IV base stocks do not start life as mineral oil and are not made by fractional distillation. They are created by polymerizing an alpha-olefin. Through a carefull controlled process of recombination larger more complex polyalphaolefins (PAO) hydro-carbons are produced. These PAO base oils are very pure and uniform products with exceptional performance properties and were the base oil for the first synthetics brought to market by Mobil.

And then we have the Group V base oils. These are most commonly ester based oils and like the PAOs do not start life as mineral oil. They are made by reactive chemistry using an oxoacid and and a hydroxyl. They have excellent lubricity and detergency which make them great as additives.

In today's "pure synthetic" oil market Group IV and Group V base oils are generally blended in relatively small proportion with VHVI/UHVI Group III base oils to enhance the performance of the Group III base. Synthetics blended with nearly 100% Group IV PAO base oils are relatively uncommon and expensive. Amsoil SynLube, PenRite, and Schaeffer are blenders that actively produce to that niche market.

Regardless of how they are blended modern synthetic oils outperform conventional mineral oils in virtually all engines - new or old. The issue of whther to use a synthetic is not one of compatabilty with older engine designs - it is one of economic sense. If you use your tractor long enough and hard enough to get the benefit of the longer service life they make sense. If you only use it lightly 50 hours a year and have to change the oil every 12 months anyway they don't make much sense.

TOH
 
Another thing to consider. When folks switch to synthetic oils. At least in a commercial setting. If there isn't a between oil change service . You start to have other component issues . Differnetial /gear box fluids, suspension components, drivelines, filters, belts etc. If I have to run a truck in for service anyway I don't see the reason for extended oil drains. Like I said, the cost / mile of the lube isn't that different and I would prefer to have the shop looking over components before they go cow---s--t. It might work back east where there arnt as many unpaved roads. Over here my trucks run probably in excess of 80% gravel or dirt roads. They need the maintenance interval. I have 8 of these trucks we run delivering fuel & lp to the country and that doesn't work in our application. I would be reluctant to use it in heavy commercial agriculture.
 
Changing the oil is how you remove the condensation from engines that don't work hard.
Back in 1997. Dad overhauled a Case 411B for one of his customers. The owner has brought the tractor back to me four times over the years with stuck valves.

When I take the valve cover off. It is full off thick white gooey crap.

I have told the owner he needs to change his oil more often. He is not using the tractor enough the get it fully warmed up and burn out the condensation.

He insists that a tractor that gets used 10hrs a year does not need the oil changed. I change his oil every time I unstuck his valves. He gets mad!

I sold Snapper lawn mowers for years. Sold one to a John Deere guy. He insisted that using John Deere oil he could go 100hrs on an oil change. I sold him a new engine every other year. His Briggs 12hp couldn't handle it.
 
there must be more to that story. those 12hp brigs are tough. my neighbor had one for a dozen hears, I THINK he added oil once or twice. never changed it. :)

I have one that is 17 ys old. used it hard for 15. I know it got at least 4 changes. :)
 
(quoted from post at 20:11:03 08/26/15) Changing the oil is how you remove the condensation from engines that don't work hard.
Back in 1997. Dad overhauled a Case 411B for one of his customers. The owner has brought the tractor back to me four times over the years with stuck valves.

When I take the valve cover off. It is full off thick white gooey crap.

I have told the owner he needs to change his oil more often. He is not using the tractor enough the get it fully warmed up and burn out the condensation.

He insists that a tractor that gets used 10hrs a year does not need the oil changed. I change his oil every time I unstuck his valves. He gets mad!

I sold Snapper lawn mowers for years. Sold one to a John Deere guy. He insisted that using John Deere oil he could go 100hrs on an oil change. I sold him a new engine every other year. His Briggs 12hp couldn't handle it.

Like you stated once its gunk'd up you are stuck with the gunk there is no turning back...
 
I don't have a dog in the conventional vs synthetic oil fight.
easy for me...can't afford synthetic for all my engines.

engine oils...
a clean $5 oil is better than a dirty $25 oil...
so I change it a lot.
I don't believe the lasts forever hype on any oil.
dirty is dirty.
Ever rebuild an engine?...ya know where you keep everything squeaky clean, even as far as washing your hands before handling critical parts?
let dirty oil stay in there too long? no way

ps feel your pain, NY is the same.....it is what it is...my engines still need clean oil.
 
I have a dumb question to ask in the conv vs syn debate. In my autos I'm still ole school; change conv oil and eng filter 3k miles. The oem filters are always very dirty as measured by weight. If I start using syn oil isn't my filter going to be dirty at 3k and need changed anyhow?
 
For several years from the mid 70's to the 90's I was an Amsoil dealer. I was always a little put off that Amsoil advertized all the motor oil I was selling as good for 25,000 miles between changes.
I saw that as pure hype because as far as I had found out, that 25,000 mile change thing was only realistic if one installed an additional bypass filter. Not surprisingly, amsoil started marketing Expensive Bypass filters. But what I did was go to auto wreckers and buy up old canister filters (like on the N's) for peanuts, clean 'em up with new fittings and hoses and sell and install those.

One experience I had in Vancouver was when I converted one of City wide Towing's GM trucks to synthetic. When back here on the island I got a call from Mel Cummiford the owner and he told me truck 56 was now using oil. So, from previous experience and hoping i was right I told him that because Amsoil Diester had a natural detergency over and above the detergents in the additive package, the spin-on Hastings densite filter I put on was now saturated and so the dirt in suspension wasn't letting his rings seal. So off I went to Vancouver, changed his spin on filter and came back home.
He had his doubts but a week later he phoned me from Vancouver and said, "You were right, no more oil consumption."

Another peculiarity I found was that volvos i converted to 10W40 Amsoil would start using oil. Switching two of them to 15W40 Amsoil totally solved that problem.

Three vehicles that I converted, two Ford V8's and a TransAm had noisy lifters -- one of the ford trucks had a few of them and sounded like hammers on a cookie sheet. All of them were totally silenced thanks to the cleaning action of the synthetic. The TransAm took so long to get silent that the owner was ready to give up on me when it finally stopped tapping as well.

Another experience. I did a friend's Toyota Tercel all synthetic including the drive train. Without even a tuneup, his car then got 11 more mpgs. I think that was the number. . . I'll have to phone him tomorrow.

I did the Fuller transmission and the two rockwell diffs on a Kenworth with 80W90 Amsoil. The owner, roger Hughes who owned a dairy but added trucking to his income, told me that he saved enough on fuel with one trip to California, because of his cooler running (better lubricated) drive train, to pay for all that expensive gear lube I had sold him.

And yada, yada . . .
Tons of success stories with the stuff so I remain convinced of it's superiority. But my prime candidates for conversion remains, well broken in and relatively low mileage engines and appropriate viscosities. I don't know what Mobil 1 (synthesized hydrocarbon IIRC) offers now in the way of viscosities but when they were first on the market the only viscosity they offered was way too light for me to want to gamble on. (5W20 or some such).

Terry
 
I recommend: BLACKSONE LABS.com

They will send you a free container, USPS mailable.

I use their services for oil analysis, annually, for fleet of cars, tractors, and they are also approved for aircraft engines.

GOOD OUTFIT.

John,PA
 
(quoted from post at 12:08:23 08/26/15) I don't know how you are testing your antifreeze, but it has an additive package as well. Over time antifreeze becomes acidic and begins corroding components in the cooling system. That is the main reason for the service interval on it as well. I have done: head gaskets which were corroded through leaking outside the engine, water pumps due to impeller corrosion and not pushing coolant, freeze plugs eaten out and the list goes on.

Interesting. My Subaru manual says that the anti-freeze/coolant is a "no service" item. Must use something better than the average stuff.
 
(quoted from post at 17:10:11 08/27/15)
You don't change the coolant as maintenance on a Sub it gets change when you do your regular head gasket replacements...

You kill me Hobo. I'm sure ancient anti-freeze has nothing to do with it ....

LMAO ;-)

IMG_2043.JPG
 

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