Starter questions - 6V

I'm thinking my starter isn't spinning as fast as it ought to… or could. But, my reference to saying my motor turns over slowly is based on my experience with 12V auto engines turning over and their typical speed with a fully charged battery. I've not had this tractor running since I bought it, so I don't know it's behavior yet.

I ask this question as my tractor is still in a state of waiting for more parts before I actually try to start it again. My last attempts at starting were halted when I found about a pint of water in the starter. I removed it and took it apart. Lots of rust, so I used emery cloth to clean the highly rusted armature. I did not take it back to pure shiny metal, but only to "this should be good enough to work".

The field coils inside the starter casing had a lot of torn insulating tape, but I'm not sure that plays a factor or not.

The brushes have plenty of life left in them and the springs were tight.

I had a 6V / 12V charger/starter hooked to the battery (6v mode, obviously) as I turned the engine over after reinstalling the starter, and it spun pretty slow. I would guess it spun the motor around 1 revolution per every two seconds, or there abouts. In my mind, nowhere near fast enough to create a low pressure to suck air/fuel into the cylinders.

I'm considering taking the starter out again, and apart, and hitting the armature on my high speed fine wire wheeled grinder to clean it back to pristine. Am I going in the right direction?

Thanks Todd

Tburch,The light rust on the steel part of the armature is not your problem,It can ge sanded good and some red oxide primer sprayed on it to prevent rusting again.The main thing that needs to be shinny is the copper commutator on the armature. sand it with some fine emery cloth or 400 sandpaper till you get it cleaned up.Check the bushings on each end for wear and replace them if worn.The fields will be ok as long as they are not shorting anyplace,They can be removed and re taped with some masking tape and painted to seal up the tape by removing the pole shoes.Are the brushes ok and not worn out with good spring tension on the springs?Sand the clutch housing where the starter mounts till it is shinny so it makes a good connection with the starter plate,then shine up the aluminum starter plate where it contacts the clutch housing for a good connection that will make your starter hummmmm.Clean up all and I mean all battery cable connections.Is the ground cable hooked to a good ground on the steering box,head bolt,block?Are all the cables big 00 or at least 0 size stranded copper cables with good ends?

As Den, below, says, you MUST have proper 0 or larger 6v battery cables.

AWG 4 auto store cables will always result in slow cranking when used in a 6V system.

Dean

Todd.........you do know to ears used to yer 12-volt BelchFire-V8 whurrr, the umpha-umpha of yer 6-volt starter motor is disconcerting. Other than "sanding" the connecting faces of the starter motor to the tranny hole, real 0-gauge (thick as yer thumb) is sufficient to start yer low compression 4-cyl engine. .........HTH, the amazed Dell

still have a few 6 volt'ers mixed in with my mostly 12v fleet.
While the 6v turn over just a little slower......it's not a big difference...just a little.(brutal winter excepted...)
My 6 volt'ers however [i:aeda1e55b5]demand[/i:aeda1e55b5] big cables, good ends, good grounds, and decent shape starters.
Any little problem in any spot and they will turn over slow.
Cleaning and maintenance of the starting system isn't an option
on the 6v.....it must be done regularly.

I'd like to add just generally.....not aimed at anybody...
that 6 or 12 volt, that keeping your engine...carb..ignition..
in top shape usually makes cranking speed unimportant.
a few turns and it should be...running.

Thanks for all the replies. In the next couple days, I'll go out and perform a thorough inspection. The cables are probably 0g.

Here's my plan of attack:

1) Remove starter, completely disassemble, rehab as needed, paint and make sure I have a good ground at starter mounting location.

2) I know the cable from negative terminal to solenoid has some corrosion at the eye connector at the solenoid. I'll inspect that and replace if necessary.

3) I do not have the copper L bar between the solenoid and the starter's hot post, but have a copper cable instead. I should have ordered the copper L the other day to remove that 12" (?) length of cable. Cable is probably 0g, but I'll gauge it.

4) Remove the ground cable and clean the connection to the block. Should have order a new braided ground strap.

5) Remove the rusty battery cable clamp post screws and nuts so I can tighten them better. Then, wire brush the cables' post clamps and battery posts.

6) Perform a bench test on the starter, before reinstallation, to check RPM.

I think I recall, perhaps in Bob's tips, that I can use a set of jumpers cables from my 12V truck, connected to the starter to operate it. Anyone done this?

Todd

I think I recall, perhaps in Bob's tips, that I can use a set of jumpers cables from my 12V truck, connected to the starter to operate it. Anyone done this?

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Do it all the time. Don't matter how you connect the cables as long its at the starter and not across the battery.
I use a 12 volt 950 amp power pack since my toys sit out in the woods.
Just don't get it in your head that the starter is supposed to spin that fast even with a 6 volt battery cause it wont.

Be very careful that the tractor is in Neutral when jump starting. You will be standing directly in front of the rear wheel. You wont be fast enough to jump out of the way.

Thanks for the safety tip. I did not grow up around tractors, and I know they can be dangerous if not used properly. My friend who has a nice 8N did grow up around them, and he lost a friend due to carelessness with a tractor, doing exactly what you advised me to watch out for.

Tburch....

I did not grow up around tractors

Click to expand...

Neither did I but watching that tractor jump forward gave me an entire new perspective to the one piece long-johns with the unbutton rear fanny door.

I removed the starter the other day, again, and took it apart for a thorough rehab.

The brushes are good. A bit scored, so I hit them with some emory cloth wrapped around a piece of steel. (left is before, right is after)



The commutator was a bit scored too, so I did the shoe-shine polish with a piece of emory. Not sure how far I can go with it, so I stopped after a good percent was abraded.

Before and After


There was a lot of oxidation and crud between the aluminum ends and the cast housing. I blasted all that off.



I didn't have a tool to remove the four square-holed screws that hold the field coils in, so I ground a piece of tool steel into a square tip, held it in a pair of vice grips, and gave a go at removing them. They didn't want to budge with intermediate effort, so I decided to leave well enough alone. I would have liked to have blasted the interior of the starter motor housing.

Another shot of the brushes.



I sandblasted and later primed the exterior of the casing, the inspection band and the show areas
of the aluminum ends, being sure to stay away from current carrying faces.



I had a copper extender stud (standoff) on the starter housing stud that protrudes from the motor housing.



It wasn't as tight as it should have been, and it also had double nuts holding the cable on.
The reason for the double nuts, apparently, was that the lower nut was stripped - the threads on the standoff are bad.



Looking in the parts diagrams, it appears my standoff did not exist
on the original starter. Not certain if I need a replacement or if I can just forego without it.

My bushings seem good enough for what they support, which is an intermittently used starter
that doesn't really spin all that fast in the scheme of things, so I won't replace them.

Both cables - the one from the battery to the solenoid and from the solenoid to the starter
are 1 gauge (as marked on the cables), which is smaller than what was suggested above.
Will probably hunt down some replacements, although these still look serviceable.



Todd

No audio for some reason, but we have a working starter again. Bench test was successful.


[video play=false:e80ac194e0]http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/videos/mvvideo20564.mov[/video:e80ac194e0]

(Edit - there is audio - my speaker cable was unplugged… duh)

I'm pretty sure my starter is a replacement, but I was looking in the parts diagram, page 143, and the diagram shows a thrust washer on the closed end of the shaft. Mine does not have that washer.

Is this a big deal?