Electric question for the Guru's

Ken(Ark)

Well-known Member
Cold starting 6v VS. 12v

Is the problem volts or amps ?

I could research it but I am sure it's a simple question for someone familiar with the subject . We have had resent threads on hard starting in extreme cold with 6v .
 
(quoted from post at 20:46:44 02/20/15) Cold starting 6v VS. 12v

Is the problem volts or amps ?

I could research it but I am sure it's a simple question for someone familiar with the subject . We have had resent threads on hard starting in extreme cold with 6v .
en, I have been watching forums and your posts this winter and have concluded that you have nothing to do nor anyone to talk to, so you work at starting an exchange with any thing that you dream up that might work. Now, you surely know that volts and amps go hand in hand, so why , other than for conversation, would you ask such a question? Long winter, huh?
 
Ken, I'm right there with you... lonely for tractor talk.

The wife just asked what I was doing and I told her I was reading about whether it was volts or amps that kept a 6v tractor down.

All my stuff's been converted to 12v, I know my buddy's 6v 8N won't start in moderate temps unless he leaves the charger on it over night. I've heard large cables and clean connections are crucial for 6v but have no 1st hand experience.
 
Y'all got it all wrong - it's the *resistance* that keeps it from starting! :p

My '50 front mount starts fine down to zero, but I have to mind the choke more closely below that so's not to flood it... Have started at -10* before with only mild complaining (the tractor).

es
 
I had my 52 6V 8N out several times earlier this week in single digit temperatures.

No charger and 15W40 oil.

It groans when cranking but always starts.

You need good compression, spot on ignition, proper battery cables, a good battery and proper technique.

Don't even try if it has been sitting with summer formula gasoline in the tank.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 19:54:48 02/20/15)
(quoted from post at 20:46:44 02/20/15) Cold starting 6v VS. 12v

Is the problem volts or amps ?

I could research it but I am sure it's a simple question for someone familiar with the subject . We have had resent threads on hard starting in extreme cold with 6v .
en, I have been watching forums and your posts this winter and have concluded that you have nothing to do nor anyone to talk to, so you work at starting an exchange with any thing that you dream up that might work. Now, you surely know that volts and amps go hand in hand, so why , other than for conversation, would you ask such a question? Long winter, huh?

Sorry , I thought this was the place to talk tractors , I see you replied - he he .

I have a general knowledge on electronics / electrical stuff , but I have also been wrong or believe so because that's the way I learned growing up . I have probably learned more things were not what I thought than new stuff I learned here . looks like a lot of people here don't know the true answer either even though is is basic and boring to some .

Seems if it was a simple amp thing people would just use two batteries but I dont see that , must be something else .
 
I would think it takes a given amount of force to turn over an engine. So that would be the constant. Given that I would think that 6V would require 2x's the amps than 12v for the same given amount of force. Hense the reason for the double ot cables with 6v . The more amperage it draws , it is affected by any additional resistance a #2 cable might afford because it is smaller. That's why the smaller ones get hot. At least that's the way I understand it. But of course that aint the only reason some are hard starting. I am sure some body will call BS on this but for the most part I think its right.
 
(quoted from post at 21:16:54 02/20/15)
(quoted from post at 19:54:48 02/20/15)
(quoted from post at 20:46:44 02/20/15) Cold starting 6v VS. 12v

Is the problem volts or amps ?

I could research it but I am sure it's a simple question for someone familiar with the subject . We have had resent threads on hard starting in extreme cold with 6v .
en, I have been watching forums and your posts this winter and have concluded that you have nothing to do nor anyone to talk to, so you work at starting an exchange with any thing that you dream up that might work. Now, you surely know that volts and amps go hand in hand, so why , other than for conversation, would you ask such a question? Long winter, huh?

Sorry , I thought this was the place to talk tractors , I see you replied - he he .

I have a general knowledge on electronics / electrical stuff , but I have also been wrong or believe so because that's the way I learned growing up . I have probably learned more things were not what I thought than new stuff I learned here . looks like a lot of people here don't know the true answer either even though is is basic and boring to some .

Seems if it was a simple amp thing people would just use two batteries but I dont see that , must be something else .
hy guess and speculate,Ken? Give it a shot and report back. Answer your own question and educate others at the same time
 

Supposed "ideal" vital statistics for a battery is 36-24-36 :D

It's been around at least since the 60's....

The dimensions of a stacked Battery 36-24-36 8)

It was also to power the get'tar in the AC/DC song "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheep,"

This is also called the "hour glass" Battery.

From the 1977 #5 US Hot 100 "Brick House" by the Commodores. This hit single contained a description of the "brick house" Battery that had a "36-24-36" body.

So now you know were the term "Stacked like a Brick Sheet House" came from...
 
Ken........it ain't the amps or the volts, its the CHEMISTRY. Lead-acid batterys sloooow down with COLD temperature (ref: Chem 101) In the late '40s, Dad would take the 6-volt battery outta 6-cyl Plymouth and putter next to the coal fired furness. Guess who hadda bring the coal? Later that year, Dad had the engine rebuilt. ........the cold Dell
 
"Y'all got it all wrong - it's the *resistance* that keeps it from starting!"

I think you're right Ed! It's -14F and I have a very high "resistance"
to going out there and even trying to start one! LOL
 
(quoted from post at 20:46:44 02/20/15) Cold starting 6v VS. 12v

Is the problem volts or amps ?

I could research it but I am sure it's a simple question for someone familiar with the subject . We have had resent threads on hard starting in extreme cold with 6v .

Ken my take on it is that a 12 V battery supplies more pressure therefore able to overcome a larger force For instance 6 V on your starter will spin it half as fast as 12 V supplied to the same generator which is drawing the same wattage.

An electrical device such as a starter doesn't need as large cables in a 12 V system as compared to a 6 V system. My reasoning is because although the starter requires the same amount of power or watts to drive it, less amps are drawn from the battery in a 12 V system then in the 6 V system.

12 volts Will be able to jump through a dirty connection (resistance) better than a 6 V voltage can. And this is where keeping those connections tight bright and clean come into play more for a 6 V system as opposed to a 12 V system. But both systems need maintenance performed regularly to function properly.

I think that in a few years the industry standard 12 V battery will be replaced by 24 V or even 36 V systems in future automobiles. I wonder if we will be having this discussion in a few years when we start converting our tractors 24 V.
But then I am very sure that you know all this already.
 
(quoted from post at 01:31:53 02/21/15)
(quoted from post at 20:46:44 02/20/15) Cold starting 6v VS. 12v

Is the problem volts or amps ?

I could research it but I am sure it's a simple question for someone familiar with the subject . We have had resent threads on hard starting in extreme cold with 6v .

Ken my take on it is that a 12 V battery supplies more pressure therefore able to overcome a larger force For instance 6 V on your starter will spin it half as fast as 12 V supplied to the same generator which is drawing the same wattage.

An electrical device such as a starter doesn't need as large cables in a 12 V system as compared to a 6 V system. My reasoning is because although the starter requires the same amount of power or watts to drive it, less amps are drawn from the battery in a 12 V system then in the 6 V system.

12 volts Will be able to jump through a dirty connection (resistance) better than a 6 V voltage can. And this is where keeping those connections tight bright and clean come into play more for a 6 V system as opposed to a 12 V system. But both systems need maintenance performed regularly to function properly.

I think that in a few years the industry standard 12 V battery will be replaced by 24 V or even 36 V systems in future automobiles. I wonder if we will be having this discussion in a few years when we start converting our tractors 24 V.
But then I am very sure that you know all this already.
o need to wonder....there will always be somebody out there to jaw about anything
 
(quoted from post at 17:46:44 02/20/15) Cold starting 6v VS. 12v

Is the problem volts or amps ?

I could research it but I am sure it's a simple question for someone familiar with the subject . We have had resent threads on hard starting in extreme cold with 6v .
OK! It is not either or, it's both in combination. It takes power to turn your engine over. Amperes are like water in a pipe and volts are like how much pressure the water in under. The amount of water getting through a small hole (resistance) Depends on having water in the pipe and having it under pressure. Together you have the power to get the water through the hole. In electricity you multiply the amperes times the volts and you come up with watts, which is the power I talked about. If you don't change the size of the hole (the resistance) but you double the pressure (volts) you get twice the power and in the case of our old Fords, our starters which were designed to work satisfactorily with only 6 volts, will happily spin much faster, and hopefully, start the engine without having to have everything perfect like it just about has to be for a 6 volt start. But I like Hobo's answer better.
 
(quoted from post at 01:31:53 02/21/15)
(quoted from post at 20:46:44 02/20/15) Cold starting 6v VS. 12v

Is the problem volts or amps ?

I could research it but I am sure it's a simple question for someone familiar with the subject . We have had resent threads on hard starting in extreme cold with 6v .

Ken my take on it is that a 12 V battery supplies more pressure therefore able to overcome a larger force For instance 6 V on your starter will spin it half as fast as 12 V supplied to the same generator which is drawing the same wattage.

An electrical device such as a starter doesn't need as large cables in a 12 V system as compared to a 6 V system. My reasoning is because although the starter requires the same amount of power or watts to drive it, less amps are drawn from the battery in a 12 V system then in the 6 V system.

12 volts Will be able to jump through a dirty connection (resistance) better than a 6 V voltage can. And this is where keeping those connections tight bright and clean come into play more for a 6 V system as opposed to a 12 V system. But both systems need maintenance performed regularly to function properly.

I think that in a few years the industry standard 12 V battery will be replaced by 24 V or even 36 V systems in future automobiles. I wonder if we will be having this discussion in a few years when we start converting our tractors 24 V.
But then I am very sure that you know all this already.

I think the automobile batteries of of the future will look more like the Tesla S - 99 Lithium ion bricks @ 3.7 VDC yielding a 1323# battery pack with a nominal discharge rating of 375 VDC :twisted:

TOH
 
no need to wonder....there will always be somebody out there to jaw about anything

This is a tractor board , that is a tractor question , there are a hundred factors that can influence the situation . you seem to be the one jawing about nothing ? You are not obligated to reply to every post . :wink:
 
(quoted from post at 00:31:53 02/21/15)
(quoted from post at 20:46:44 02/20/15) Cold starting 6v VS. 12v

Is the problem volts or amps ?

I could research it but I am sure it's a simple question for someone familiar with the subject . We have had resent threads on hard starting in extreme cold with 6v .

Ken my take on it is that a 12 V battery supplies more pressure therefore able to overcome a larger force For instance 6 V on your starter will spin it half as fast as 12 V supplied to the same generator which is drawing the same wattage.

An electrical device such as a starter doesn't need as large cables in a 12 V system as compared to a 6 V system. My reasoning is because although the starter requires the same amount of power or watts to drive it, less amps are drawn from the battery in a 12 V system then in the 6 V system.

12 volts Will be able to jump through a dirty connection (resistance) better than a 6 V voltage can. And this is where keeping those connections tight bright and clean come into play more for a 6 V system as opposed to a 12 V system. But both systems need maintenance performed regularly to function properly.

I think that in a few years the industry standard 12 V battery will be replaced by 24 V or even 36 V systems in future automobiles. I wonder if we will be having this discussion in a few years when we start converting our tractors 24 V.
But then I am very sure that you know all this already.

You know when I started reading this board I was a parts changer . If it did not work you kept changing parts until it did , like most 12v conversions today , it's easier .
From these boards , the internet , newbies posting simple questions , I have worked up to were I understand most concepts but time to time I still learn I was missing a key element .
My first N had a 6v system and would have trouble starting it with the 40 amp charger , swapped everything to 12v , over time I have collected a pile of 6v stuff .
 
Hey Dan-
I was an engineer in the automotive field for the better part of 35 years and have been out of the business since 2011 but I still subscribe to all the trade magazines and stuff just to stay on top of all the latest technology. From all the data I've been reading, I would agree with your comment about the Tesla battery system. Many people have never heard of Nickoli Tesla and so have no clue what he did for AC current and electricity. When people are asked who is most famous for inventing electricity, they usually reply with Thomas Edison. Edison opposed Tesla and warned that his Alternating Current would be very dangerous. Tesla proved Edison wrong. Edison was one of Henry Ford's Vagabonds and they spent many weeks a year camping in various places around the US. Their group also had William Burroughs and Harvey Firestone too. I recall an old TV show with Martin Mull and Fred Willard called 'Fernwood Tonight' and they were talk show host who had a guy with an electric car. The car was an AMC Gremlin and they popped the hood only to see nothing but 'D' cell batteries all lined up across the engine compartment. I LMAO...

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The way I see it is like a sprinkler or soaker hose. The more voltage (pressure) the higher the water sprays out of the hose(magnetic field) We have been falsely taught that the field comes from the current. It comes from the atoms of the windings. In a permanent magnet, there is no voltage or current, so it has to be coming from the material. The field of an electromagnet is the same, so it comes from the material too. Excited by the voltage (pressure) You can prove this yourself with a simple experiment. Take a small coil of wire & put XXX watts in it & see how much iron it will pick up. Then put the same watts in a large coil(more material) and it will pick up way more iron. The big coil will have more resistance so you will need more voltage & less current to make the watts equal. Again proving that the field comes from the material excited by the VOLTAGE.
 
Oversimplification.

Apply your theory to an EMP, then come back to talk.

its a system of physical laws working together.

Summing it up saying 'its the material' kind of throws the brick in the cockroach. :)

For some light reading, Google vacume permeability and maxwells law. Also check vacume arcs.

Lastly, check up on plasma. Its a bit of a derevitive, but you will see the current relationship to magnetic fields, and the entire concept of movement or changing charges
 
It may be oversimplification to some, but once you understand something it becomes very obvious and very simple.
 
(quoted from post at 11:04:55 02/21/15) The way I see it is like a sprinkler or soaker hose. The more voltage (pressure) the higher the water sprays out of the hose(magnetic field) We have been falsely taught that the field comes from the current. It comes from the atoms of the windings. In a permanent magnet, there is no voltage or current, so it has to be coming from the material. The field of an electromagnet is the same, so it comes from the material too. Excited by the voltage (pressure) You can prove this yourself with a simple experiment. Take a small coil of wire &amp; put XXX watts in it &amp; see how much iron it will pick up. Then put the same watts in a large coil(more material) and it will pick up way more iron. The big coil will have more resistance so you will need more voltage &amp; less current to make the watts equal. Again proving that the field comes from the material excited by the VOLTAGE.

You continue to dispute 250+ years of science:

The magnetic field generated by a steady current I (a constant flow of electric charges, in which charge neither accumulates nor is depleted at any point) is described by the Biot–Savart law:

d9de1b2a6bf642812ac9f78b8c962c30.png


André-Marie Ampère (you may have heard of him) had a different but consistent formulation:

792d084dfe4651c02d935c1490df17cd.png


In both cases I is current. If you can demonstrate that either of those is wrong I suggest you write it up. It would revolutionize the scientific world and probably win you a Nobel prize in Physics. Not only would you be world famous it comes with a cash award of 8M Swedish kroner ($1,219,875.44 USD at today's exchange rate).....

TOH
 
Just saying it is the material, leaves out the other 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the facts of the matter though.

I noticed you did not address any of the rest of the applied physics I pointed out.

Since you understand it, why don't you explain arc theory with respect to magnetic fields.

I for one am interested, as i.'m sure the rest of the me,bears here that took the time to get higher understanding thru education in engineering and electronics. :)
 
Is this the same as what that fella on the TD bank commercial talks about referencing the maintenance fee's and the "FLUX CAPACITOR".

I'm happy I know what little I do which has got me as far as it has. If I can get her to start up and run, I see it as a good day.

My moto, being a jack of all trades, beats being a master of one.
:D
 
I threw him a hint earlier when I told him to go check the
maxwell equations.

Gauss's is one of them. :)
 
Ken,
I thought you asked a legitimate question and was interested in reading some legitimate responses from the electrical gurus here.
Alas, that is not to be.
Maybe you should ask this on Tractor Talk.
There the people who know the answers to your question might deign to help you.
And not go into the useless self congratulatory tittering like the gurus do here.
 
(quoted from post at 19:59:34 02/21/15) Ken,
I thought you asked a legitimate question and was interested in reading some legitimate responses from the electrical gurus here.
Alas, that is not to be.
Maybe you should ask this on Tractor Talk.
There the people who know the answers to your question might deign to help you.
And not go into the useless self congratulatory tittering like the gurus do here.

What am I chop meat??? :evil:
 
(quoted from post at 03:59:34 02/22/15) Ken,
I thought you asked a legitimate question and was interested in reading some legitimate responses from the electrical gurus here.
Alas, that is not to be.
Maybe you should ask this on Tractor Talk.
There the people who know the answers to your question might deign to help you.
And not go into the useless self congratulatory tittering like the gurus do here.

You did not like my recommendation... :shock:

Its all about the work it can do efficiently... 36-24-36 is self charging if you can afford one... I could care less about how its made my job is to diagnose and fix it in a efficient manner the first time... I was waiting for a couple to roll up there degree and slap him around with it... :lol:
 
(quoted from post at 21:46:44 02/20/15) Cold starting 6v VS. 12v

Is the problem volts or amps ?

I could research it but I am sure it's a simple question for someone familiar with the subject . We have had resent threads on hard starting in extreme cold with 6v .

my answer...either, both, neither..lol
for me, it's much more simple.
more available 'work power' in the same size box at similar cost.
so, in most scenarios....12V is better than 6V.

keep asking questions...keep lifting weights with your mind.
Remember, every 'degree' in the world is just saying you have studied someone else's material.
Always strive to be the 'first' and be the one that [i:6bbf119461]writes[/i:6bbf119461] the book.
also, very happy to see Tesla's name mentioned here
 
(quoted from post at 22:04:57 02/21/15)
(quoted from post at 03:59:34 02/22/15) Ken,
I thought you asked a legitimate question and was interested in reading some legitimate responses from the electrical gurus here.
Alas, that is not to be.
Maybe you should ask this on Tractor Talk.
There the people who know the answers to your question might deign to help you.
And not go into the useless self congratulatory tittering like the gurus do here.

You did not like my recommendation... :shock:

Its all about the work it can do efficiently... 36-24-36 is self charging if you can afford one... I could care less about how its made my job is to diagnose and fix it in a efficient manner the first time... I was waiting for a couple to roll up there degree and slap him around with it... :lol:

I got a lifetime guaranty on mine . The cold cranky amps have increase with age and I should not comment on what has happened to the 36-24-36 . I would not want to trade as I dont think mt starter could handle the extra amps .
 

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