how to set camshaft with crankshaft gears for timing

Hi everyone I am new on this site and need help on how to proceed for my timing on my 1940 Ford 9N, I did relaced all valves etc and got a used camshaft with the bolt on gear but having problem to set it with the crank gear
NOTE: no mark on bolh
I was told to bring piston 1 and 4 to TDC and make sure the piston 4 both valves just overlaping than it says to remove the camshaft gear and turn again the camshaft to get pistons 1 and 4 to TDC and re instakk the cam gear? is it the way it should be done because I undid everything twice and and was doing paf paf like the exaust meaning of timing
I would like to get help so this time I would do it right

thansk
Serge

Maybe this will help--info from someone else I had
tucked away on my 'puter..
Timing without timing marks. Unfortunately, you
will have to remove your cylinder head to verify
#4-valves rock-over. (both are open) Then remove
your camshaft gear and roll your crankshaft for
#1-TDC. Then re-install your camshaft gear without
moving anything. Then I'd re-mark the "witness
marks", probably use 1/8" drill on BOTH gears. #1
will be about 1/2-stroke when witness marks line-
up. I'd probably re-spray your un-used head gasket
with copper-plate paint and re-use it. Torque to
spec..

(quoted from post at 23:31:11 12/28/14) Hi everyone I am new on this site and need help on how to proceed for my timing on my 1940 Ford 9N, I did relaced all valves etc and got a used camshaft with the bolt on gear but having problem to set it with the crank gear
NOTE: no mark on bolh
I was told to bring piston 1 and 4 to TDC and make sure the piston 4 both valves just overlaping than it says to remove the camshaft gear and turn again the camshaft to get pistons 1 and 4 to TDC and re instakk the cam gear? is it the way it should be done because I undid everything twice and and was doing paf paf like the exaust meaning of timing
I would like to get help so this time I would do it right

thansk
Serge

Click to expand...

Let me state this so you wan't think I am dreaming it up...
A old mechanic/machine shop operator, X sailor born again christian, Dragon slayer once told me...

An old trick to see if valve timing is right on a flat head would be to remove the head or lifter cover and bring #1 cyl up to compression stroke. While you are rotating the engine coming up on #1 TDC, #4 should be on overlap (exhaust valve closing, intake valve opening). This should happen right on TDC #1. If a valve on #4 is wide open or doing nothing at all, the valve timing is off... weather it's the cam gear . crank, gear or key way, broken cam,etc. The reason # 4 is the cyl in question is because that is the "middle" cyl in the firing order 1-2-4-3. The "middle cyl should always be in overlap. for instance, on a chevy the firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2, so if we wanted to see if the valve timing was off we would look at cyl# 6 to see if it was on overlap rolling the engine over to #1 TDC. It should overlap right at #1 TDC at 0 degrees

Master this and you will never b stumped again timing a engine,,, On all n's I have seen the when the marks line up the piston will B at haft way of it travel and the crank throw at 90 deg,,, you will c this on some older Ford engines and some newer GM engines,,, its has been said that it makes for easier assy cuzz this is the location were the cam is less loaded by the valve springs,,, well theirs no load on 4 lobes at this time 4 sure

Take the time now to play with this and never B stumped again on any engine,,, The Flathead gives you the ability to c the piston valve relationship better than any engine I know of...

Are you SURE there's no marks?

I've been into more engines than a lot of guys will see in a lifetime, and have YET to deal with missing timing marks.

Faint/poorly marked ones, yes, missing ones, not so much.

Hi Tom

thanks for your help it is very appreciated
I was waiting before closing averything again and I think everything is exactly place the way you are saying this time

Note: just to confirm when removing the cam gear and turning again the crank so #1 cyl is TDC, #4 cyl will also be TDC than it is #1 cyl that have both valves overlapping this time is this correct?

Serge

HI hobo,
your help is very much appreciated

it mean the way I have it set now must be the good way

Serge

Hi Bob,

we never was able to find the mark on the crank but was one on my camshaft but the fact that I remove the gear of the cam both marks are no good anymore

Serge

Hi Tom

thanks for your help it is very appreciated
I was waiting before closing averything again and I think everything is exactly place the way you are saying this time

Note: just to confirm when removing the cam gear and turning again the crank so #1 cyl is TDC, #4 cyl will also be TDC than it is #1 cyl that have both valves overlapping this time is this correct?

Serge

(quoted from post at 15:30:14 12/29/14) Hi Tom

thanks for your help it is very appreciated
I was waiting before closing averything again and I think everything is exactly place the way you are saying this time

Note: just to confirm when removing the cam gear and turning again the crank so #1 cyl is TDC, #4 cyl will also be TDC than it is #1 cyl that have both valves overlapping this time is this correct?

Serge

Click to expand...

Let me bail Tom out

While you are rotating the engine coming up on #1 TDC, #4 should be on overlap (exhaust valve closing, intake valve opening). This should happen right on TDC #1.

At this time both valves on #1 will be closed if you rock the crank in either direction neither valve on #1 will move they both will be closed.

If you are still unsure once you install the gears when #1 is at the bottom of the compression stoke the exhaust valve will have just begun to open slightly...

Until you are SURE STOP and confirm till you are SURE... Now is the time to confirm this issue...

sorry I made a mistake when I said
than it is #1 cyl that have both valves overlapping this time is this correct?

this is not possible the cam gear is remove so no valves will be moving

Serge

When #1 is at TDC at the end of it's compression stroke, #4's valves will be at "overlap" at the end of #4 exhaust stroke.

When #4 is at TDC at the end of it's compression stroke, #1's valves will be at "overlap" at the end of #1's exhaust stroke.

What is Valve Overlap

Valve overlap is the period during the valve timing where both the intake and exhaust valves are open. Occurring towards the end of the exhaust stroke, the intake valves are opened just before all the exhaust gases are released, providing more time for the intake air to enter the engine.

Valve overlap is the period during the valve timing where both the intake and exhaust valves are open. At this time they will look like they are closed but they are actually held open a tad by the camshaft if you rock the cam in either direction you will see one are the other open . You will also see the term "On The Rock" used to explain valve over lap...

Look at your old cam,,, look at the first two lobes (cyl #1) and the last two lobes (cyl #4). Lets call the lobes Rabbit Ears...

Lay the cam down and roll it when the rabbit ears (cyl 1) are pointing down and out opposite of each other the cam is at TDC compression stroke... If roll/rock the cam in either direction neither valve will move...

At this time the rabbit ears on cyl #4 will be pointing up opposite of each other and you can see were one valve would be closing and one opening if you roll?rock the cam in either direction...

How to find a companion cyl...

Your firing order 1-2-4-3

Put 4-3 under 1-2
1-2
4-3

1
4 are companion cyl

2
3 are companion cyl.

Nutter example chebby V8 firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
1-8-4-3
6-5-7-2

Companion cyl are
1-6,,, 8-5,,,4-7,,,,,,3-2

Any time cyl 1-8-4-3 are at TDC compression stroke there companion cyl will be in overlap... Rabbit ears up

Thanks again for the good information

What is Valve Overlap

Valve overlap is the period during the valve timing where both the intake and exhaust valves are open. Occurring towards the end of the exhaust stroke, the intake valves are opened just before all the exhaust gases are released, providing more time for the intake air to enter the engine.

Valve overlap is the period during the valve timing where both the intake and exhaust valves are open. At this time they will look like they are closed but they are actually held open a tad by the camshaft if you rock the cam in either direction you will see one are the other open . You will also see the term "On The Rock" used to explain valve over lap...

Look at your old cam,,, look at the first two lobes (cyl #1) and the last two lobes (cyl #4). Lets call the lobes Rabbit Ears...

Lay the cam down and roll it when the rabbit ears (cyl 1) are pointing down and out opposite of each other the cam is at TDC compression stroke... If roll/rock the cam in either direction neither valve will move...

At this time the rabbit ears on cyl #4 will be pointing up opposite of each other and you can see were one valve would be closing and one opening if you roll?rock the cam in either direction...

How to find a companion cyl...

Your firing order 1-2-4-3

Put 4-3 under 1-2
1-2
4-3

1
4 are companion cyl

2
3 are companion cyl.

Nutter example chebby V8 firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
1-8-4-3
6-5-7-2

Companion cyl are
1-6,,, 8-5,,,4-7,,,,,,3-2

Any time cyl 1-8-4-3 are at TDC compression stroke there companion cyl will be in overlap... Rabbit ears up [/quote]