no compression cylinder 1 and 2

pixer · Dec 27, 2014

have no compression on cylinder 1 and two, head is coming off, hope it is bad head gasket between cylinders. question is are thier choices of head gaskets i want to use the best, gasket sealer yes or no?,, if thier is a cut where gasket was bad, ive read that jb weld with seran wrap set head on when hardened lift off head and sand. will this work?. could have head milled but not block. lots of ifs i know but want chance of success. all input appreciated
its a 52 8n

Den N Ms · Dec 27, 2014

Pixer,I would use a FelPro head gasket with Copper Cote sprayed on both sides of it.Check the head with a machinist straight edge first to see if it even needs to be trued up.If you have it planed take only enough off to true it up.Lay it on the block without a gasket and roll the enge over by hand and watch it for movement.If it doesent move or lift up your good to install the head.

HCooke · Dec 27, 2014

I prefer the Felpro gasket - avail at NAPA.

Ultradog MN · Dec 27, 2014

Is this your regular tractor that just started doing this or one you just picked up?
What happened the last time you ran it?
If one you just picked up I would suspect a couple of stuck valves rather than a head gasket.
If the head gasket is blown out such that you have Zero compression on a couple I would think you could hear the air escaping from either the carb or the exhaust pipe as you turn it over.
I can't recommend pulling the head till you give us more info.
Using JB weld anywhere around the combustion chamber or exhaust is a really bad idea.
If I was the dictator of all the world
I would outlaw that damned stuff.

pixer · Dec 27, 2014

this is my 2nd n i just picked it up prev. owner told me he plowed snow with it last year on only two cylinders, he thought it was stuck valve also, but what im thinkiing is ive soaked valves with atf no dice so regardless is it is gasket or valves ill be able to free up valves better with head off and give all valves a polish, nf it is bad rings thats a horse of diff. color for me, but whats the odds of two brokent rings? anyway seems to me like head has to come off.

Ken(Ark) · Dec 27, 2014

Fel Pro Head Gasket part number 7277B

No sealer needed

Autozone - $15.99 , they can get it shipped to their store or your door .

Den N Ms · Dec 27, 2014

Pixer ,Broken rings would not cause 0 compression.I would bet it is the gasket blown between #1 and #2.

Tall T · Dec 27, 2014

As Den said,

Don't plane the head unless it really needs it and then only to a bare minimum.

The reason I say this is because on an engine with very long hours and an elderly set of rings and more than factory clearance on the rod bearings, planing the head can increase your compression so much that the top compression ring can wind up smacking the cylinder wall ridge.

I once rebuilt a Ford 6, after the owner had just done a super machine shop valve job that included planing the head. He asked me why it was billowing white smoke. I guessed that his top rings had broken from smacking the ridge and I was right. The top compression rings on every piston were in 5 to 10 pieces.

So if I was to resurface, I would ream the ridges, even if leaving the rings and rod bearings alone.

Ken(Ark) · Dec 27, 2014

....... an elderly set of rings and more than factory clearance on the rod bearings, planing the head can increase your compression so much that the top compression ring can wind up smacking the cylinder wall ridge.

You really think so ???

Hobo,NC · Dec 27, 2014

(quoted from post at 03:58:12 12/28/14) have no compression on cylinder 1 and two, head is coming off, hope it is bad head gasket between cylinders. question is are thier choices of head gaskets i want to use the best, gasket sealer yes or no?,, if thier is a cut where gasket was bad, ive read that jb weld with seran wrap set head on when hardened lift off head and sand. will this work?. could have head milled but not block. lots of ifs i know but want chance of success. all input appreciated
its a 52 8n

Fel-pro is a good gasket if it has a blue coating (Polymer) on it NO SEALER required its already on it and the manufacture does not recommend a sealer be applied over it...

If you use a composite plan faced aftermarket gasket apply sealer...
If you use a original steel faced gasket apply a sealer..

I like Permatex aviation Form-A-Gasket sealant Liquid
#765-1210... Copper coat will work also...

The JB weld experiment is your call I have seen it work longer than I expected it too but it always in time failed.... I did it on Junker $50 Mazda B2000 were it grooved/burnt out the block between the cyl not a little but allot... I applied it and nailed the head ( I dunno why you would want to remove the head and fudge with it)... I think it ran two years in that time I had rounded up another engine...

Its a loaded question you are dealing with some old and new technology that should not be mixed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Ppyde7msY

http://www.fme-cat.com/docs/1425.pdf

Hobo,NC · Dec 27, 2014

Sounds like you are eager to make the jump... It would help if you took the blinders off first... A compression test would be a good place to start...

Tall T · Dec 27, 2014

It can be a gamble, and I hate the thought of having to do something twice especially when it costs$.

I learned a lot from two machinist mentors at an age old machine shop in victoria, B.C. where I'd take cranks and blocks etc. One day I asked them about doing the head on a particular engine. The first thing they asked was how much mileage was on the rings, because if it was really high then I should do the rings as well as a good machine shop head job. . . . and for the rings-hitting'the-ridge reason that I mentioned.

So a few years after they taught me that, when the friend asked me to diagnose his white smoke, I was winging it, but totally drawing on what those machinists had taught me about breaking the top rings, that was the diagnosis I gave him.

When I took the head off and pulled the pistons, there was nothing speculative about it, the increased compression had broken all the top rings. Where the top rings would normally just "touch" the bottom of the ridge, they were now "hitting" it.

But for all I know, that may not be true for all engines.
That one was in a 1971 Ford 1/2 ton.

Hobo,NC · Dec 27, 2014

Musta sprayed a big shot of laughing gas in it to break'em...

Tall T · Dec 27, 2014

It must be painful for you to hear something you knew nothing about.

As Walter Brennan used to say, "Just Pitiful."

You have my sympathy.

Den N Ms · Dec 27, 2014

Tall T,Did you remove the ridge with a ridge reamer before you took the pistons out?

Tall T · Dec 27, 2014

Den,

I don't know what it is that makes some people conclude that no one knows anything except them, or do they just revel in the opportunity to put people down.

And why would someone who prides themselves on their mechanical ability, find the machinists theory on breaking top rings, so hard to conceive or believe?

That was a very cleverly insulting question.

Of course I cut the ridge.
If I beat the poor pistons and rings out past the ridge, I would have to be an idiot.

Is that what you think of me?

. . . and no, I didn't use bloody hone stones on any ridge, EVER, I used my trusty Hastings Ridge Reamer to cut the ridge. But maybe I have to actually show a photo of my ridge reamer to have THAT believed. . . . but even then, would that be enough to have people stop looking for opportunities to underestimate or to lord it over others.

ScoutB · Dec 27, 2014

It can be a gamble, and I hate the thought of having to do something twice especially when it costs$.

I learned a lot from two machinist mentors at an age old machine shop in victoria, B.C. where I'd take cranks and blocks etc. One day I asked them about doing the head on a particular engine. The first thing they asked was how much mileage was on the rings, because if it was really high then I should do the rings as well as a good machine shop head job. . . . and for the rings-hitting'the-ridge reason that I mentioned.

So a few years after they taught me that, when the friend asked me to diagnose his white smoke, I was winging it, but totally drawing on what those machinists had taught me about breaking the top rings, that was the diagnosis I gave him.

When I took the head off and pulled the pistons, there was nothing speculative about it, the increased compression had broken all the top rings. Where the top rings would normally just "touch" the bottom of the ridge, they were now "hitting" it.

But for all I know, that may not be true for all engines.
That one was in a 1971 Ford 1/2 ton.[/quote]

What am I missing? How does increasing compression change the stroke length?

Hobo,NC · Dec 27, 2014

Not as bad as depending on hearsay...

Nitrous oxide, NOS, laughing gas... Google it your old timer bud's must have been addicted to it...

Ford pick ups were bad to break a ring are the skirt off a piston they did not need a new head gasket to do it,,, are did you break'em when you drove out the pistons...

Hobo,NC · Dec 27, 2014

TT can not take a joke... He needs a Lorazepam to com'em down...

Hobo,NC · Dec 27, 2014

Like you I wuz look'n for a caption to state my SHOCK but all I could come up wif was Jennifer Lopez

Bruce (VA) · Dec 27, 2014

You do not need to pull the head yet.

Pull the valve cover & see if the push rods are moving. If not, you can free the valves up from there.
75 Tips

Den N Ms · Dec 27, 2014

Tall T,Just calm down,why are you jumpin on me??I didn't mean any insult to you by asking that question at all.You have read all sorts of things into it.And I have seen many folks beat pistons out with out removing the ridge.

Tall T · Dec 27, 2014

It is also relative to any excessive rod bearing clearance and the fact that pistons not on their power strokes, are driven up to the top with a lot more force.

So like I said, whereas the top compression ring used to just
touch the ridge at the top of an exhaust stroke, with significantly added compression the thrust of a piston on it's power stroke, drives other pistons upward with more force to potentially hit the ridge repeatedly enough to fracture the ring.

The force of a piston coming up on its compression stroke is dampened by that compression and so it is most likely the piston being driven upward on it's [b:eaec60c5c9]exhaust[/b:eaec60c5c9] stroke where the force of top ring to ridge would be the greatest and so, maybe it is the exhaust stroke specifically that can fracture them.

But hey, what do two old intelligent machinists, working in what was Victoria, B.C.'s oldest and longest standing and best automotive machine shop, R. Angus Ltd., know. They're dead now so I can't tell them how wrong they were.

And because I used the word "maybe", try to not jump all over it as though that bit of contemplation as to which stroke, proves that I'm just full of hot air.

Anyway . . . it's too unpleasant being forced to be defensive, so I'm outta here.

Ultradog MN · Dec 27, 2014

Take the air tube off the carb and see what you can hear - Just for kicks. Then I would open your valve covers and see what the valves themselves are doing.
Watch as you turn it over and if they are moving up and down properly - following the lifter ALL the way down.
If they hang or stick I have heard of others who unstuck them by spraying Kroil or PB blaster upwards into/onto the valve stem and let them soak from both ends.
Then if no joy pull the head.

Tall T · Dec 27, 2014

O.K.
Sorry Den.
That darned Hobo suckered me again.

I thought you knew that I have COMPLETELY rebuilt at least 15 engines (I know, Hobo, you've done waaay more than that)
and I'm proud to say that no rebuild I ever did couldn't make it way past 100,000 miles.

Cutting the ridge is SO fundamental to a proper ring job that it sounded like an insult.

I know what you mean though. whenever a young guy would tell me that he rebuilt his engine, AND I KID YOU NOT,
I would always ask, "Did you cut the ridge?"

Their answer most often, "The what?"

And then, "Oh yeah I HONED the cylinders."
I shudder to think of honing the ridge away instead of cutting it.

Hobo,NC · Dec 27, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_kjR487TwI

pixer · Dec 27, 2014

well i might as well try the pull the vavle covers rout would be easier than puylling the head,

Dell (WA) · Dec 27, 2014

pixi dust.......um, the chance of side-by-side stuck valves is astronomically rare ...but... side-by-side blown head gasket is quite common. Go with the odds, eh? I like felpro with a shot of fresh (wet) aluminum spray paint just before installing. Follow prescribed "circular" headbolt installation starting at the center of the head. I'd also recommend having the head checked for "warp" before installation. Iff'n you don't know how to do this with carpenters steel square, take 'er to machine shop. CAUTION: machine shop will "always" want to mill yer head, ittza NOT always necessary fer less than 0.005" warp. Remember to re-torque yer head after 15-30min warm-up ........Dell

Tom N MS · Dec 27, 2014

Makes sense to me..

Tall T · Dec 27, 2014

Maybe I didn't emphasize it enough because I told the tale already a few months back, but this Ford engine with the new head, didn't even burn oil before the valve job and it was now billowing white oil smoke.

Also, even if you've pushed an old piston out of a block where you don't intend to keep the piston because you are going to bore the cylinders or use the block for some yard art, it doesn't break the top compression rings into 5 to 10 pieces.

At the time I took the head off the ford, I had already rebuilt a '52 Pontiac flathead, a '56 Ford and my 235 Chev . . . which I'm promising will get a startup next spring. . . and I had a ridge reamer way back then in the mid seventies when I was 30.

Compression rings TOP ONES ONLY don't break into many pieces from "fatigue" in a 6 year old motor . . . and I sure as heck didn't break them like that.

ASEguy · Dec 28, 2014

Amen! I have read this thread and been amused, but didn't find the answers very helpful. He stated he had no compression on cylinders 1 and 2. Sounds like valves to me since head gasket failures give some readings. Good advise.

NoNewParts · Dec 28, 2014

well....
sounds like you want to tear into it.
so be it, I consider head gaskets a maintenance item anyway.
BUT
as the guys are telling you, get out the compression and leakdown testers and find out what's what...first.
(homebrew the leakdown tester if you don't own one)
Saves time when you know where to look before the wrenches come out and the engine is in pieces.

your engine....guess..
zero compression??
While there is an exception to every rule, I'd immediately suspect stuck valves.
Broken rings, failed head gasket, burnt/chipped valve, you usually get [i:1c1f7a222a]some[/i:1c1f7a222a] reading...
Leakdown test will confirm, but with valves, it's kinda easy. Take a cover off and [i:1c1f7a222a]look[/i:1c1f7a222a] at em.

stuck valves....well...soaking sometimes works, but I've had stuck valves in old engines that had to be [i:1c1f7a222a]seriously[/i:1c1f7a222a] pounded to make them come loose.......

pixer · Dec 28, 2014

dell found inlet valve on #2 cylinder stuck open, using tie rod remover slid over lifter and rapping with hammer to get it donw , cam lifts good but spring wont push it donwe, am goint to workj on it till i get it to cycle up and down. getting acitone and mixing with atf to apply on it, seems to take less of a rap to close. #1 clinder valves move, going to take compression again i may have not had thing tight, or have stuk valvv on one and also blown head gasket. have to see.

pixer · Dec 29, 2014

problem was 2 cyl. intake stuck open no. 1 cylinder was mad mechanicing i had loose fitting when i tested for compression. worked cou;le hrs total i used tie rod tool placed on lifter and tapped with hammer it would snap down then at last it made complete cycle put it together and wonce i got i fired up and the smoke cleared from all the atf i put in all cylinders it idles nicely. goint to add lead additive ,to keep from having same problem any other additives can clean up inside engine?/

no compression cylinder 1 and 2

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