- Thread starter dahermit
- Start date
Greg NE
Member
- Location
- Duncan, Nebraska
I believe the main reason for no grease fitting is the thought of the grease attracting dirt and really grinding up the pin and bushing in a hurry. I may be incorrect but that is what I think was the reason. Greg NE
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD
The Ford owner's manual advised against greasing the pin because it trapped grit. Hence no grease fitting was provided. Probably not one of their better engineering analyses.
TOH
I cannot understand that theory...if grease were pumped into it as it is supposed to be in any grease fitting, logically the fresh grease would force any contaminate grease out and away from the mated parts. It has always been my understanding that one is supposed to pump grease into a fitting until one can see grease being expelled from the mating parts. Is that incorrect? If it is correct, then no dirt would be in where it could do any damage.
I guess the old school Ford/Ferguson tractor engineers knew a lot about people.
Some folks will never lube anything, no matter how many grease zerks you build into the machine.
I have two neighbors that have MF 165, 175 tractors and the front axle bushings are worn out. Those tractors have grease zerks, but you have to take the grill cover off to get to the grease jerk, hired help must have never greased the axle.
Some folks will never lube anything, no matter how many grease zerks you build into the machine.
I have two neighbors that have MF 165, 175 tractors and the front axle bushings are worn out. Those tractors have grease zerks, but you have to take the grill cover off to get to the grease jerk, hired help must have never greased the axle.
Grease zerks in difficult places are nothing new. A common practice was to have the zerk on the end of a pipe that ran to the lube point. When I worked on the C&O car ferry steam ships out of Ludington, MI, there were banks of zerks what piped the grease into hard to access points.
In short, the absence of a grease zerk on the axle pin is a glaring error that is hard to rationalize. I just do not get it.
In short, the absence of a grease zerk on the axle pin is a glaring error that is hard to rationalize. I just do not get it.
John Smith8N
Member
I've disassembled a few N tractors whose owners had added a zerk and regularly greased the axle pivot. Every one came apart easily and none showed any measurable amount of wear on the pin or bushing - unlike all the worn out dry ones we see.
I agree with you John.I put a new bushing and made a new long pin for my 43 (hand crank pin)40 years or more ago added a 45% grease fitting at the time.I have kept it greased every time I grease the rest of the tractor.I grease it till it purges out.Any way had the axle out a couple years ago and the pin and bushing looked as good as they were new.Dirt and dust eating bushings because it has a grease fitting and is greased.I say Bull Durm,what about a disk,Cat traxcavator bucket pins,back hoe , loader,ect.Maybe if it was gresaed when new and never greased again for 70 years,but I still thik that would be better than no grease at all ever,and a open hole on the top for water to get into and rust things up.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Well John its etched in stone no grease are you trying to start trouble... :lol:
I do have a question fer ya... I have tore quite a few apart that had a steel bushing... Was the original bushing steel :?:
Thanks Den-I remember seeing the hole but don't remember ever installing a grease fitting..Got to be a good thing..My old Kubota has a grease fitting on the front axle rocker pin--the Zetor I had had one, my small Cub Cadet has one--gotta be a step toward the better....I see no way it could be a bad move..
Another possible reason for no front axle grease zerk,
The engineers may have never thought the old tractors would last this long, many other things would be worn out and tractor replaced long before the front axle bearing wore out.
Just a thought!
I do not have a grease zerk on my tractors axle, but I keep the bearing lubed with spray graphite.
Graphite lubes, but will not collect dirt.
The engineers may have never thought the old tractors would last this long, many other things would be worn out and tractor replaced long before the front axle bearing wore out.
Just a thought!
I do not have a grease zerk on my tractors axle, but I keep the bearing lubed with spray graphite.
Graphite lubes, but will not collect dirt.
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Your zerk is on the wrong side of the axle. To do any good it should be on the bottom, not the top. Is there room to put one underneath on an N? I don't know. Others here may.
Bingo.
Equipment of all types was being replaced due to obsolesense regularly during the era when the Ns were designed.
I'm sure that the designers never considered that tens of thousande of these machines would still be extant in the 60s, let alone the next century.
Dean
Equipment of all types was being replaced due to obsolesense regularly during the era when the Ns were designed.
I'm sure that the designers never considered that tens of thousande of these machines would still be extant in the 60s, let alone the next century.
Dean
John Smith8N
Member
From what I've seen, the original bushings were all split steel. The aftermarket replacements are brass.
NoNewParts
Member
agree that it was major error.
no grease in radius arm sockets is another.
I've worked with automotive engineers. smart fellas, but they do make mistakes. Or they go with assembly SOP...even if the original idea was wrong.
But, the major problem in a factory is the 'beancounters'
I've seen them overrule engineers to the point where an engineer just throws his/her hands up in disgust.
as far as the dirt thing. I've owned 3 new loader tractors.
I always have 2 buckets. A smaller heavy duty one for dirt and a wide light duty one for snow. Swap em out twice a year.
pins/pin sleeves are always clean, no dirt. (greased regularly)
And those lower pins live in dirt.....
Now the part I'll get slapped for....LOL
We are all Ford fans here obviously, but I see a lot of engineer hero worship on these boards.
Remember, they are/were just people like us.
If you see a better way, or they made an error....FIX IT...
no grease in radius arm sockets is another.
I've worked with automotive engineers. smart fellas, but they do make mistakes. Or they go with assembly SOP...even if the original idea was wrong.
But, the major problem in a factory is the 'beancounters'
I've seen them overrule engineers to the point where an engineer just throws his/her hands up in disgust.
as far as the dirt thing. I've owned 3 new loader tractors.
I always have 2 buckets. A smaller heavy duty one for dirt and a wide light duty one for snow. Swap em out twice a year.
pins/pin sleeves are always clean, no dirt. (greased regularly)
And those lower pins live in dirt.....
Now the part I'll get slapped for....LOL
We are all Ford fans here obviously, but I see a lot of engineer hero worship on these boards.
Remember, they are/were just people like us.
If you see a better way, or they made an error....FIX IT...
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
All the pressure (weight) is on the bottom side of that axle center hole. Not the top where he has the zerk. With no grease seals there is pretty much no way grease will force it's way around to the bottom. And unlike most shafts that revolve 360° and bring grease around with them, that shaft is stationary. Likewise, the axle only pivots about 40° from stop to stop.
If the zerk was on the bottom of the axle it would more likely get to where it needs to be and do some good.
If the zerk was on the bottom of the axle it would more likely get to where it needs to be and do some good.
the original ones lasted what? 50-60-70 years? that wasn't good enough eh? how long did you want them to last?
on average.. an old ford is only ever gonna get 1 pin replacement once the original one falls out.
I think that number would be unchanged even with grease fittings.
on average.. an old ford is only ever gonna get 1 pin replacement once the original one falls out.
I think that number would be unchanged even with grease fittings.
I have greased parts on my tractor that have never worn-out. I would be nice to not have to change the Axle pin also. It appears to be way too much work and inconvenience when it does go.
On what do you base your opinion when you say it would not change the rate of failure to have a grease fitting on it?
On what do you base your opinion when you say it would not change the rate of failure to have a grease fitting on it?
You apparently mid read or did not understand my message, I said 1 pin replacement is likely to equal one. Here's what I base that on:
1, can't change history, these n are already ok and had no grease fitting on the pin, can't change that.
2, from ? A million units of empirical observation
It seems an increased pin Las about 50-70 years. Even if we installed new pins with grease fittings and machines the bolster for deals, etc, how much longer is it going to last? Is a 70 yr old tractor going to last another 70 years? I'd imagine other parts will start wearing out before the next axle starts going out.
1, can't change history, these n are already ok and had no grease fitting on the pin, can't change that.
2, from ? A million units of empirical observation
It seems an increased pin Las about 50-70 years. Even if we installed new pins with grease fittings and machines the bolster for deals, etc, how much longer is it going to last? Is a 70 yr old tractor going to last another 70 years? I'd imagine other parts will start wearing out before the next axle starts going out.
mhb@ufe
Well-known Member
- Location
- Jefferson Maine
It seems most axle pins get left in way beyond the point when they should have been replaced. How long the original pins and bushings last is dependent on how much wear you consider acceptable.
Mark
Mark
Tall T
Well-known Member
NoNewParts,
You wrote:
"But, the major problem in a factory is the 'beancounters'
I've seen them overrule engineers to the point where an engineer just throws his/her hands up in disgust."
That's what I've been thinking of chiming in with, in part.
Henry's prime directive, by all accounts was to keep the tractor affordable to the farmers, not to mention his healthy sense of competition or the lean years. So making demands on his bean counters to start adding up the amount that cutting the least significant corners would save in production,
might have been where this deficiency entered in.
It's not that they wouldn't have been acutely aware that a zerk would be an advantage; after all, even on my brothers '56 Ford throw out bearing -- blew me away -- a grease nipple!
Cheers,
T
You wrote:
"But, the major problem in a factory is the 'beancounters'
I've seen them overrule engineers to the point where an engineer just throws his/her hands up in disgust."
That's what I've been thinking of chiming in with, in part.
Henry's prime directive, by all accounts was to keep the tractor affordable to the farmers, not to mention his healthy sense of competition or the lean years. So making demands on his bean counters to start adding up the amount that cutting the least significant corners would save in production,
might have been where this deficiency entered in.
It's not that they wouldn't have been acutely aware that a zerk would be an advantage; after all, even on my brothers '56 Ford throw out bearing -- blew me away -- a grease nipple!
Cheers,
T
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD
Because there as no provision for lubrication the original bushings were hardened steel. Folks frequently ignored them until the pins were grossly undersize and the bushings had worn through and into the axle itself. My 9N was one of them and I had to bore it oversize and bush it back to original
Replacement bushings are bronze and replacement pins are pretty soft. They are not going to last anywhere near as long as the OEM parts in unlubricated service. IMO the original reasoning was flawed and there was no good reason to NOT have a $.03 (1940's cost) grease nipple - then or now. Henry was cost conscious but not foolishly cheap. They simply got it wrong.
TOH
mhb@ufe
Well-known Member
- Location
- Jefferson Maine
I agree completely, grease is much cheaper than parts and because the center pin is some what hidden they generally are ignored until they cause other problems such as breaking the dist cap on front mounts.
Mark
Mark
If I was 20 it might make a diff on a Mike pin and bronze
bushing. At my age, it won't. At the tractors age, I'm betting for
most non parade units, it won't either. Just a bet on averages
based on number in existence, the type of work done with them
now vs then. ( mostly small estate or hobby now, farming or
light commercial industrial then ), and looking at the rest of the
chassis that is 60+ yes old too.
at some point having a second axle pin lasting till the tractor is
140 yes old is an academic argument...
For anyone wringing their hands and loosing sleep over it, why
not at time of replacement have a hard pin turned custom and
agood bushing milled and support a local machine shop, then
have that axle pin that may outlive more than half the rest of the
mmachine.
Just my opinion. Sometimes people like a 5$ fix to a 2$
problem.
Not a huge deal if ford got it wrong 70 yes ago, and now your
replacement won't last 70 but may bee only 30-50. Who here
uses 100+ year old tractors for real work?
bushing. At my age, it won't. At the tractors age, I'm betting for
most non parade units, it won't either. Just a bet on averages
based on number in existence, the type of work done with them
now vs then. ( mostly small estate or hobby now, farming or
light commercial industrial then ), and looking at the rest of the
chassis that is 60+ yes old too.
at some point having a second axle pin lasting till the tractor is
140 yes old is an academic argument...
For anyone wringing their hands and loosing sleep over it, why
not at time of replacement have a hard pin turned custom and
agood bushing milled and support a local machine shop, then
have that axle pin that may outlive more than half the rest of the
mmachine.
Just my opinion. Sometimes people like a 5$ fix to a 2$
problem.
Not a huge deal if ford got it wrong 70 yes ago, and now your
replacement won't last 70 but may bee only 30-50. Who here
uses 100+ year old tractors for real work?
I agree...there should have been one there. The
problem is that when they go, often unexpectedly
as evidenced by people's experiences here, they
damage other things and render the tractor
unusable and perhaps stationary until it is fixed.
I can see myself with my 8N sitting in the snow in
the middle of my driveway...very inconvenient.
In short, it seems to me that it would be more
beneficial to have a grease fitting on the axle
pin, than on the tie-rod ends...it would be a
whole lot easier to change them than all the
trouble for an axle pin.
problem is that when they go, often unexpectedly
as evidenced by people's experiences here, they
damage other things and render the tractor
unusable and perhaps stationary until it is fixed.
I can see myself with my 8N sitting in the snow in
the middle of my driveway...very inconvenient.
In short, it seems to me that it would be more
beneficial to have a grease fitting on the axle
pin, than on the tie-rod ends...it would be a
whole lot easier to change them than all the
trouble for an axle pin.
The point is, I do not want the "original" pin to fail, and if there was a grease fitting on it, logically it would not. Once a new pin were in, of course the new pin would be expected to last another 70 years or so.
I am too old and not ambitious enough to do a preemptive axle pin change, so the idea of how long a new one would last sans grease is moot for me.
I am too old and not ambitious enough to do a preemptive axle pin change, so the idea of how long a new one would last sans grease is moot for me.
Your point of not wanting an original pin to fail is moot unless you can travel in time, or have a crated, original ford hidden in a barn somewhere and want to retrofit it with a grease fitting.
Since either of those being true is highly unlikely, then worrying about preserving an original pin that's already seen 70 yes work.. is uh.. just daydreaming??
Since either of those being true is highly unlikely, then worrying about preserving an original pin that's already seen 70 yes work.. is uh.. just daydreaming??
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
I agree with Soundguy on this one. They lasted for 50+ years which was far beyond the scope of the people who designed them.
Ford continued with that exact same non-lubricated pin and bushing till well into the 1980s. We all know of the constant, gradual improvements Ford made to their tractors over the years. Read John Smith's identify page to get some examples - like changing the grease zerks on the early 9Ns from the front of the spindle to the back to pervent them being broken off.
If it was a mistake or oversight in 1939 they could have corrected it in 1948, 1953, 1955, 1957, 1962, 1965, 1976 or 1983 when new models came out. Or for that matter, anywhere else along the way. It's not like they didn't have time to study and correct the "problem".
But they never changed it.
To me, adding a zerk there is just another example of some people's tendancy to over kill.
If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy then do it.
But it sure wasn't, isn't necessary.
PS, Ford also used the exact same ball socket and cap on the radius rods tell well into the 80s. In fact the cap from a 1983 model will fit on a 9N and vice versa.
They didn't think they needed grease there either.
Ford continued with that exact same non-lubricated pin and bushing till well into the 1980s. We all know of the constant, gradual improvements Ford made to their tractors over the years. Read John Smith's identify page to get some examples - like changing the grease zerks on the early 9Ns from the front of the spindle to the back to pervent them being broken off.
If it was a mistake or oversight in 1939 they could have corrected it in 1948, 1953, 1955, 1957, 1962, 1965, 1976 or 1983 when new models came out. Or for that matter, anywhere else along the way. It's not like they didn't have time to study and correct the "problem".
But they never changed it.
To me, adding a zerk there is just another example of some people's tendancy to over kill.
If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy then do it.
But it sure wasn't, isn't necessary.
PS, Ford also used the exact same ball socket and cap on the radius rods tell well into the 80s. In fact the cap from a 1983 model will fit on a 9N and vice versa.
They didn't think they needed grease there either.
BUTCH IN NY
Member
I know obviously this is the 8n and 9n forum, but I'll ask anyway. Does this info by any chance apply to a 1955 640 also ?? If so, I can add it to my spring to do list. Thank you very much.
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
Henry Ford valued production engineering over design engineering. Design-wise, a zerk on that king pin would have added 30+ years to the normal life expectancy of 30 years. But why bother?
The Germans took most of WWII to learn that the hard way. It took them about 200,000+ manhours to build a King Tiger tank; it took 10,000 hours to build a Sherman.
We built 91K tanks of all models in WWII. The Russians built 98k. The Germans? 46k.
If they had survived the war, those German tanks would still be running today given their excellent workmanship. You might get 4 or 500 hours...if that...out of a T-34 or Sherman engine.
But quality didn't matter as much as quantity.
The Germans took most of WWII to learn that the hard way. It took them about 200,000+ manhours to build a King Tiger tank; it took 10,000 hours to build a Sherman.
We built 91K tanks of all models in WWII. The Russians built 98k. The Germans? 46k.
If they had survived the war, those German tanks would still be running today given their excellent workmanship. You might get 4 or 500 hours...if that...out of a T-34 or Sherman engine.
But quality didn't matter as much as quantity.
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
This reminds me he did not install a temp gauge... Folks will dream up a reason for no gauge as they will dream up other reasons....
Excuses only satisfy those that dream them up...
greywolf224
Member
Who needs a gauge when you got eyes. If its blowing steam something has got to be not right!
Bruce (VA)
Well-known Member
First temp gauge on a Ford tractor was 1953.
By 1940, he had temp gauges on the cars & trucks.....and pressurized the 9N radiator....so my guess is he didn't care to add to the cost of the tractor by installing a gauge.
Your guess?
By 1940, he had temp gauges on the cars & trucks.....and pressurized the 9N radiator....so my guess is he didn't care to add to the cost of the tractor by installing a gauge.
Your guess?
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
He was to cheap to put one on it... And yes it was about the money... I can smell one when its locked up and see when a rod pokes a hole in the block they did not need a oil pressure gauge either....
When you run one hot its luck of the draw gauge are no gauge....
I understand the amp meter especially if it has a 3 brush generator 6V needed to be monitored and adjusted as needed....
Modern 12V systems are pert neer trouble/maintenance free no amp meter needed....
I don't expect for operators to know all that's needed to know about a gauge reading... I do expect for operators to understand whats normal and investigate a gauge reading when they see its not normal...
1953 temp gauge now that's a POS also,,, MY TAKE...
Operators get confused with numbers but hopefully understand colors... If a wide range of Green is indicated it would satisfy the operator if numbers were indicated he could not comprehend it...
Even numbers on a gauge on new car confuse folks... As much as I dislike operating ranges in colors it does make talking to a owner about a gauge issue less stressful... Both of us understand what in the RED means
Hobo,NC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Sanford, NC
Rite, a gauge would not have given any indication run'em till they blow.... The strong will survive...
TheOldHokie
Well-known Member
- Location
- Myersville, MD
Exactly. And something is also too hot for its own good....
TOH
NoNewParts
Member
agree they shoulda had a temp gauge too.
don't care what's on it's face, just need to watch out for it heading to the right....so I can get it shut down before it seriously overheats.
out walking the dog and had a few more thoughts on this excellent thread.
Glanced under some of my other off-brand, same era, wide front tractors and they all have grease zerks for the main pin.
SO......who was right?
My 75 5000 had one too if I remember.
age wise....looking over an old Ford....
given a supply of maintenance parts, kits, various bearings, etc.
good care, no abuse.
I don't see any reason it still wouldn't be working in another 70 years...or 700 for that matter.
What would it be doing? well, the same as always...it'll still be the same dirt.
(and the thought that it lasted 70 years and will last my lifetime, so no matter.........my grandson would be very disappointed in me if I thought like that)
as far as the friendly debate, to each his own.
Here, if it is metal on metal and it moves at all, it gets lube.
Especially steel on steel, which will rust instantly when you park it.
Rust is a very efficient grinding compound too...............
don't care what's on it's face, just need to watch out for it heading to the right....so I can get it shut down before it seriously overheats.
out walking the dog and had a few more thoughts on this excellent thread.
Glanced under some of my other off-brand, same era, wide front tractors and they all have grease zerks for the main pin.
SO......who was right?
My 75 5000 had one too if I remember.
age wise....looking over an old Ford....
given a supply of maintenance parts, kits, various bearings, etc.
good care, no abuse.
I don't see any reason it still wouldn't be working in another 70 years...or 700 for that matter.
What would it be doing? well, the same as always...it'll still be the same dirt.
(and the thought that it lasted 70 years and will last my lifetime, so no matter.........my grandson would be very disappointed in me if I thought like that)
as far as the friendly debate, to each his own.
Here, if it is metal on metal and it moves at all, it gets lube.
Especially steel on steel, which will rust instantly when you park it.
Rust is a very efficient grinding compound too...............
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
NNP,
Just one quick note.
Your 5000 is the same as a 4400 and does have a zerk under the bolster but that greases the main vertical pivot pin in the steering apparatus under the radiator.
Both pivot pins - the one in the bolster and the one in the cast iron pan are not lubed.
Just one quick note.
Your 5000 is the same as a 4400 and does have a zerk under the bolster but that greases the main vertical pivot pin in the steering apparatus under the radiator.
Both pivot pins - the one in the bolster and the one in the cast iron pan are not lubed.
"my grandson would be very disappointed in me if I thought like that"
Maybe not, they bring the same for scrap working or not.
That's what most grandkids would do with them anyways.
I have a granddaughter that thinks they are magical, so she
might keep one. I have a nephew that absolutely loved
tractors until he met his fiance. Now if it doesn't have a cab
and a buddy seat he doesn't want much to do with it.
Others want to know where the screen and controller are. :roll:
I do appreciate your thinking though.
I'm hoping and trying to get them interested again.
Tough to do when the technology is considered irrelevant.
Not diesel. Not computerized. Not big enough for much of
anything modern.
Carburetor? What's that? Points? Do those really work? LOL
Maybe not, they bring the same for scrap working or not.
That's what most grandkids would do with them anyways.
I have a granddaughter that thinks they are magical, so she
might keep one. I have a nephew that absolutely loved
tractors until he met his fiance. Now if it doesn't have a cab
and a buddy seat he doesn't want much to do with it.
Others want to know where the screen and controller are. :roll:
I do appreciate your thinking though.
I'm hoping and trying to get them interested again.
Tough to do when the technology is considered irrelevant.
Not diesel. Not computerized. Not big enough for much of
anything modern.
Carburetor? What's that? Points? Do those really work? LOL
NoNewParts
Member
Thanks for the info UD. Going by memory, I thought I remembered greasing something up under there...
Doing the one on the 46 2N today, oddly enough the pin was ok but bushing was shot and axle was a little worn into. So after putting the bushing in i filled the gap with jb weld. Once it sets up i'll shoot a little primer on it and get it back together. No zerk here, its gone nearly 70 years without one, and certianly has seen its hardest working days behind it.
Similar threads
We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.
Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.
Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy