hard starting & no power

Bens n's

Member
I picked up an old 8n recently that had been sitting in a barn for a while... and I've been trying to get it into shape. It had a new carb on it when I got it, but it wasn't right so I refurbished the original. I cleaned all screens and the tank and sealed the tank. I replaced cap, rotor, condenser, and points as well. I have new plugs and wires coming. It was running but with inadequate power and wanting to die under a load. After mowing a couple of strips it kind of sputtered and died. Wouldn't start. I cleaned the carb again, but when trying to start it would instantly flood. Pulled all the plugs and cleaned them. It fired up. Mowed 2 strips with same low power symptoms and then wouldn't go any more. Eventually died and again won't start. Just floods. It has spark. Forgot to say I cleaned air filter also. Its obviously getting fuel since it pours out when attempting to start. I'm not sure what else to do. The intake manifold is slightly stained almost like it has a leak, though you can't see where it would be. I have slight carbon around manifold gaskit on #4 plug too. Would a leaky intake cause my symptoms? It would have to be a super small leak if its there. What else should I be looking at? It is a front mount that's been converted to 12volt.
 
First, replace the plugs. You flooded it, they're fouled & it will be it next to impossible to start. You don't need to toss them; heat the tips for a few seconds w/ a propane torch to burn off the invisible spark-robbing deposits from today's additive filled gasoline........or wash them in lacquer thinner.

The usual cause of gas dripping out of the carb throat is operator error.

While each N has its own starting sequence, none of them will start well by just yanking out the choke rod & holding it out for 5 or 10 seconds while the engine cranks. This is a gravity fuel system on a low compression engine; it is easily flooded by too much choke.

Try this:

Key on, gas on 2 full turns, clutch in, 3/4 throttle, press the starter button. Let it crank for at least 3 - 4 seconds before you pull the choke rod. Then, don't hold it out for more than 2 or 3 seconds.

Now to figure out why it won't stay running.........

It takes three things for an engine to run: spark at the right time, compression, & fuel/air in the right mixture. For the moment, forget about compression & concentrate on narrowing the problem down to spark or fuel.

There are three very important tools you always need to have in your N tool box: a 3 inch piece of wire w/ alligator clips on each end, a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap (* see below) and a 7/16 box end wrench. (see tip # 50 at the link below) And, you really do need a working ammeter on the tractor; it is a very important diagnostic tool. With these tools, you can quickly narrow down most N problems to spark or fuel.

Next time it stops, check quickly for fuel (** see below) then spark. When I say quickly, I mean get off the seat, grab the tools & do it right then. Do not wait a minute or two. First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem. So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, hook up your spark checker, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 1/4” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the ¼” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)

If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)

There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. A store bought plug checker (in the picture) will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!

Lastly, you said it's 12v. What resistors are in the ignition circuit? All it needs is the OEM ballast resistor & a 12v coil (tip # 30 at the link) Too mush resistance & it runs poorly thanks to a weak spark.

Post back with results or more questions.



*If you don’t own a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap, buy one. In the meantime, an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least ¼” will work. Ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine turn the key on & look for a spark.

** On most gas engines, you would check for spark first. But, the N gas tank has a pin-hole size vent that easily clogs, causing vacuum lock. By the time you check for spark on a hot engine, the vacuum lock will dissipate w/ the engine off
75 Tips
 
2 questions. Where is the air hole for the gas tank? I assume that's something you have to clean? As I mentioned, I have already gone through the tank and screens. Also, I'm confused on jumping the ignition terminals. Where exactly would I put the wire?

No idea what resister it has. I can take a pic of the set up if that would help.

I should also say that when it died last it was running ok with clutch in but when the PTO was engaged it would try to kill it. Push in the clutch and it would stumble back to normal. I just pushed it too far...then no start.
 
(quoted from post at 05:25:30 09/27/14) 2 questions. Where is the air hole for the gas tank? I assume that's something you have to clean? As I mentioned, I have already gone through the tank and screens. Also, I'm confused on jumping the ignition terminals. Where exactly would I put the wire?

No idea what resister it has. I can take a pic of the set up if that would help.

I should also say that when it died last it was running ok with clutch in but when the PTO was engaged it would try to kill it. Push in the clutch and it would stumble back to

normal. I just pushed it too far...then no start.

The hole for the gas tank is on the top under the hood. Requires removal to check and make sure its not plugged. I've seen some people just use a vented gas cap.
 

I just had the whole thing apart and sealed the tank. I only saw the cap hole and one where the sediment bowl is.
 
(quoted from post at 21:37:54 09/27/14)
I just had the whole thing apart and sealed the tank. I only saw the cap hole and one where the sediment bowl is.


If you sealed the tank you also sealed off the vent. get a vented cap!
 
That's the OEM ballast resistor in the picture. IF you have a 12 volt coil, that's all you need.

Chances are your tank sealing closed the vent hole. It's under the blister. Which also has a hole in it.
ff5614e4-6e4e-4d93-bacf-b351f246f004_zpsa49e8a9b.jpg

hub002.jpg

75 Tips
 
Just wanted to give an update. Busy busy around here, so its slow going. My wife just had our third, so very limited repair time. Had a couple of minutes though, so I put the new plugs in. I haven't tested the 1/4" gap jump yet. Using the starting procedure outlined above, it flooded again. I pulled the plugs and baked off the goodies. Unfortunately I also turned off the gas. It then fired up and sounded good until it ran out of what was in the carb. It died and then wouldn't start again. I'm assuming it is now again flooded as it will flood without choke just by cranking. If I get more time I'll clean the plugs and try again. Will try to do the gap test too. Thanks for the help.
 
Update: I got the new wires on today. It fired right up and sounded really good. I rode it around and everything seemed good, so I put a load on it. I think I still need to tweak the carb a bit, but it ran better than it ever has and didnt die. Can't tell you how thrilled I am!
 

I brush hogged a lot of my field today. It was running strong , but all of the sudden kind of backfired and died. I couldn't get it started again for a long time. After cooling it finally started only to die again and not start. Tired of this! Loosened the fuel line to the carb and getting a strong flow of fuel to carb. Points still gapped good. Getting spark. Here are the pics of the electrical system. I don't understand what I'm supposed to jump to test the ignition. I figured the once would help you direct me. Thx.

Here are pics of the entire electrical system.


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That would get very frustrating and quick!
I see a lot of bad connections in your wiring and I don't
see the original ballast resistor in the pictures.

If it were me, I would take it all off and wire it new.
You could buy a harness from YT or make your own, but once
those frayed connections on the resistor and taped up
connections elsewhere are replaced with good solid ones
I would bet your intermittent problems would be cured.
 

Yes I'm trying to figure out the whole ballast resister thing. I don't know the first thing about wiring one of these, so I don't even know how it all should go. Anyone have pictures and diagrams that I could follow to make sure its wired properly? I dont even know where the ballast should be.
 
Yes! JMOR has done some extensive work creating pictograms of
the wiring for N series tractors. Google "wiring diagrams by JMOR"
Pick the right one for your current setup, 8N 3 wire conversion.
The original ballast resistor is the picture Bruce(VA) posted and
it is mounted on the inside/underside of the dash, basically just
above your key switch.
BTW, your key switch is not original, but if it is just being used
as an on/off switch it may work just fine. Assuming it is not bad.
Are you still using the push button by the shifter to start it?
 

No, that key actually cranks it. They bypassed the push button by the starter. When its day light I'll try to look for the ballast just to see what they've done.
 
A lot of them have been converted to key start. Not unusual.
I like to use the push button on mine because it is also a
neutral safety switch. Keeps the grandkids (or forgetful
grandparents) from starting the tractor while its in gear. :)
 
(quoted from post at 18:39:22 10/11/14) Yes! JMOR has done some extensive work creating pictograms of
the wiring for N series tractors. Google "wiring diagrams by JMOR"
Pick the right one for your current setup, 8N 3 wire conversion.

plus 1
sit down with a cup of coffee, or a beer and study JMOR's
diagrams. Until your brain clicks and you think in wonder....oh my gosh, that is a simple setup.
Then, tear that mess off and make it right.
(until you fix it, pull a battery cable when you park it in your barn.....)
hint: study those diagrams in your living room.....not finger tracing wires in your garage. When the 'I get it' clicks in your brain, ya won't even need the diagram when you have the tools in your hand.

never could understand how come every used tractor I buy has a wiring mess like that.......Alt, Gen, 6v, 12, doing it right is far easier than some messes I run into....takes less wire too :)
 
First, check out tip # 42 at the link.

That tractor is going to be a huge source of frustration & expense unless you rewire it as Royse & NNP are telling you.

Get your parts from this site or nnalert's. You will need an ignition switch, an OEM ballast resistor, a wiring harness & battery cables.

If you can't measure the internal resistance of that coil w/ an ohm meter, assume it's a 6v coil. That means you will need to buy a 12v coil.

Google "wiring diagrams JMOR", find the diagram that fits your tractor & start reading.

Post back w/ results or more questions.
 
Jmor shows only one wire going to the alternator. I have 3, so I'm not sure what to do on that. . Also, I have no idea what that silver item in the red box on the right of his diagrams is. All his diagrams also show the traditional starter switch in play, but mine was bypassed, so I don't know how that will affect the final result.
 
" Jmor shows only one wire going to the alternator. I have 3, so I'm not sure what to do on that."

Take a close up pic of the back of the alternator & post it here. JMOR will be along soon to help you w/ that question after he ID's the alternator.

" Also, I have no idea what that silver item in the red box on the right of his diagrams is"

It's the solenoid. On top of your starter. Count the posts on it. It might have 4. If it does, tell us so. You might need a buss bar & new solenoid too.

" All his diagrams also show the traditional starter switch in play, but mine was bypassed, so I don't know how that will affect the final result. "

That's why I suggested you get the OEM starter switch. Chances are 9 out of 10 that nothing was wrong w/ that OEM safety switch. Some moron just re-wired it w/ an automotive ignition switch & bypassed the only safety device on the tractor.
75 Tips
 
" That's why I suggested you get the OEM starter switch. "

Ooooops!

Meant to say ' That's why I suggested you get the OEM [b:cd915b0840]ignition[/b:cd915b0840] switch.'
 
(quoted from post at 09:03:05 10/13/14) " Jmor shows only one wire going to the alternator. I have 3, so I'm not sure what to do on that."

Take a close up pic of the back of the alternator & post it here. JMOR will be along soon to help you w/ that question after he ID's the alternator.

" Also, I have no idea what that silver item in the red box on the right of his diagrams is"

It's the solenoid. On top of your starter. Count the posts on it. It might have 4. If it does, tell us so. You might need a buss bar & new solenoid too.

" All his diagrams also show the traditional starter switch in play, but mine was bypassed, so I don't know how that will affect the final result. "

That's why I suggested you get the OEM starter switch. Chances are 9 out of 10 that nothing was wrong w/ that OEM safety switch. Some moron just re-wired it w/ an automotive ignition switch & bypassed the only safety device on the tractor.
75 Tips
 
Thanks jmor. The gauge is broken on this one, but should I replace it with an ammeter or a volt meter? What's the difference?

Despite aprently having bad wiring, it still seems to be a bit lean too. Once warm, full choke will kill it but partial choke causes it to rev a little higher and have a bit more power. Fyi
 
If you follow JMOR's diagram, replace it with an ammeter.
Or just connect those two wires together for now, bypassing
the ammeter. I would not leave it that way.
Voltmeters are wired differently. If you want to use a voltmeter
they are easy to hook up and we can help with that too.

The lean issue may actually have to do with the wiring, as a
rich fuel mixture can help a weak spark perform better.
I would get the tractor wired and working correctly first.
One step at a time.
 
Is there a benefit to the ammeter over the volt meter? Forgive my ignorance but what does an ammeter measure exactly? The gage on there now has a D on one side and a C on the other, but I wouldn't know how to read it even if it worked.

Also, you can see from the photos that I have a different resister. Its the white thing and it only has two screws, so its set up a little different than the diagram. I'm probably going to try and put it back how it is with the turn key starter as opposed to resurrecting the push button. Do you think the standard harness is the right fit in this case or should I just buy all new wire and ends and do it myself?
 
A voltmeter measures the battery voltage.
i.e. ~12.5V at rest, ~13.6 when charging.
Numbers are examples, not exact but close.

Ammeter measure the actual current (in amps)
going into or out of the battery at the time.
D - Discharge. Battery is being drained.
C- Charge. Battery is being charged.
How far it deflects is normally graduated with numbers
telling you how much it is charging or discharging.

Each of them have their benefits.
Many discussions on that topic in the archives here.
Which one you use is a personal preference.
An ammeter takes more skill to read correctly.

The original wiring harness will not work with key start.
You are basically left to your own skill figuring out what
key start switch you have and what post goes where.
 
It is working the way it is, so I assume its correct to that degree. It just kills the motor after a period of time and won't start. If i let it sit a day it starts up again. Odd. So what I have understood from this discussion is that something isn't getting a good connection and that new wiring and connections should fix that problem. Correct me if I'm wrong. If buying more parts and rewiring it to include a switch and the push button is the only thing that makes sense here, then that's what I'll do....just not wanting to spend needless money if its not necessary.

I can't even find a ballast resister. I don't know if it goes by another name or what, but nothing comes up anywhere I look.
 
These are the 2 possible resistors that you can be looking for.

Do yourself a favor and listen to these folk and at the very least do not by-pass but reconnect the push button starter switch.

If you are like us and work on your tractor by standing right in front of the rear tire (not that you can stand anywhere else) when you decide to kick over the engine, and its in gear, you will have those rear wheels sitting on top of you before you can say - OH $hit!!!!


http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/A8NN12250A_Resistor-Assembly_4373.htm

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/8NE10306_Resistor_3307.htm
 
I am certainly not trying to get you to just "buy parts".
That wouldn't set well around here either!
Sometimes putting it back to original is worth it though.
Not only do I think it would fix your current trouble, but it would
also put your tractor's neutral safety switch back in place and
make it much easier for us to help you when something goes wrong.

The resistor you are looking for is sold many places, including right
[b:7744764ddc]here[/b:7744764ddc] on YT. If you do decide to buy the parts and can't get them locally,
order them all at once from the same place. Shipping costs less that way.
 
Yes, this tractor has the second resistor pictured. It only has 2 connection points as opposed to the old one (and the one in diagram) that has 3 terminals. Thanks for the links. Not sure what I was doing wrong there.
 
Not sure what I was doing wrong there.[/quote]hat tractor is going to be a huge source of frustration & expense unless you rewire it as Royse & NNP are telling you.

Get your parts from this site or nnalert's. You will need an ignition switch, an OEM ballast resistor, a wiring harness & battery cables.

If you can't measure the internal resistance of that coil w/ an ohm meter, assume it's a 6v coil. That means you will need to buy a 12v coil. [/i:ca5daebce8]

You've got JMOR's diagram & plenty of advice here. Just buy the parts & fix it.

Post back if you have any problems.
 

Bruce, saying I wasn't sure what I did wrong was in reference to searching for a ballast resistor. I couldn't get anything to come up in my original search. Otherwise was just trying to survey my options and make sure I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. There is a difference between doing what you are told and owning the decision. I like to own my decisions. It makes it a little easier when you hit potholes after having made the decision......like replacing everything back to original only to find out that your original problem still exists. If that were to happen, I would want to know that I still made the right decision no matter what, and one gets to that place by asking questions and perhaps even challenging logic from time to time. I appreciate all of the advice and help. I'll be ordering these electronic components today, so wish me well. I'll report back when its rewired.
 

Yes, I think I have found everything I need. Now, how do I measure the internal resistance on the coil and what should the measurement be if its 12volt? That's the only thing I have left to figure out here.
 
You will need to measure the internal resistance of your coil & see what it is. A digital multi-meter has two probes & a switch. Set the switch on resistance. Put one probe on the top of the coil & the other on the pigtail at the bottom. It will give you a reading in ohms.

If it's 2.5 ohms or more, it's a 12v coil.

Make sure you are not including the resistance of your probes. Touch them together. If you see 2 or 3 ohms, that's fine; just subtract from whatever reading you get on the coil.

Or, you can not worry about measuring the resistance; just use an ammeter per the other picture & directions that JMOR put together.
Coil.jpg

measuring_coil_current.jpg

75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 15:51:02 09/26/14) Try this:

Key on, gas on 2 full turns, clutch in, 3/4 throttle, press the starter button. Let it crank for at least 3 - 4 seconds before you pull the choke rod. Then, don't hold it out for more than 2 or 3 seconds. /artint268.htm]75 Tips[/url]
Thankx I'll try that technique on my TD9 I have been having trouble flooding and fouling plugs. I knew there was and old Indian trick to starting the old updraft carburetor systems.
 
Starting to pull wires today, but harness isn't here yet to finish job. Wires are in bad shape on this thing! I tested the coil.....the only oam setting that would work is the one labeled "200". It come up with 11 on that. Am I to assume that this is probably a 1.1 then and that this is a 6v coil? No other setting gives me a reading.

Correction: I think my multimeter battery is going dead. I tested it again and there was a decimal in there that faded away after a second. So it looks like it was 1.2. Interestingly this time it was 0.6 though. Not sure why it changed. Is that a low reading even for a 6v coil?
 
(quoted from post at 16:09:53 10/31/14) Starting to pull wires today, but harness isn't here yet to finish job. Wires are in bad shape on this thing! I tested the coil.....the only oam setting that would work is the one labeled "200". It come up with 11 on that. Am I to assume that this is probably a 1.1 then and that this is a 6v coil? No other setting gives me a reading.

Correction: I think my multimeter battery is going dead. I tested it again and there was a decimal in there that faded away after a second. So it looks like it was 1.2. Interestingly this time it was 0.6 though. Not sure why it changed. Is that a low reading even for a 6v coil?
ome of older coils were as low as 0.47 Ohms
 
(quoted from post at 13:09:53 10/31/14) Starting to pull wires today, but harness isn't here yet to finish job. Wires are in bad shape on this thing! I tested the coil.....the only oam setting that would work is the one labeled "200". It come up with 11 on that. Am I to assume that this is probably a 1.1 then and that this is a 6v coil? No other setting gives me a reading.

Correction: I think my multimeter battery is going dead. I tested it again and there was a decimal in there that faded away after a second. So it looks like it was 1.2. Interestingly this time it was 0.6 though. Not sure why it changed. Is that a low reading even for a 6v coil?

No. As JMOR said, some were lower. Does it have Ford written on it? Regardless, you need a 12 volt coil. Or you can use another resistor in series with the OEM ballast resistor. Your call. (HINT: the 12v coil option is easier)
 

The only marking I could find was a very small "made in america" stamp on the top. Otherwise completely blank. I had a feeling I was going to need one of these. I know the wires are bad, but this coil would give me spark troubles too wouldn't it?
 

Nope. No spark problems at all for, oh, maybe 8 or 10 hours of run time. Maybe longer. But sooner or later, it will melt.

Add a resistor or get a 12 volt coil.
 

Interestingly, this is what's been on the tractor for long enough for the wire insulation to rot off in places. Nothing seems to have melted thus far. Forgive my ignorance but what does the coil do? How does it work? And why would it melt?
 

The 6 or 12 volts produced by a battery will not produce a spark in a combustion chamber. But, if you put 6 or 12 volts into a coil, you can get 22kv out of it. That produces the spark.

When the points are closed, the coil is "energizing". When the points open, the magnetic field in the coil collapses & it produces a 22kv spark at the plugs.

Technology & materials being what they were in the 30's, that square coil would melt if it ran on much more than 4 amps for any length of time. (see tip # 38 for an example). In order to get a hot spark at the same time the starter was drawing max current from the battery, a ballast resistor was added in the ignition circuit. What that did was add about .3 ohms of resistance in the circuit, added to the 1.5 ohms of the coil. That got you 3.5 amps or so at start up. As the voltage increased when the engine was running to about 7.5 volts, the resistor heated up, adding more resistance in the circuit. 1.0 ohms hot, plus 1.5 ohms of the coil got you down to 3 amps or so to keep from melting the coil. The same rule (actually, Ohm's Law) applies to a 12v circuit. I= E/R. Current equals voltage divided by resistance.

Your 6v coil had some fixed resistor of unknown value to keep it from melting. But, because it was a fixed resistor, it also reduced current needed for a cold start.

Need more info? Google "Kettering Ignition".
 
(quoted from post at 20:00:12 10/11/14)
Yes I'm trying to figure out the whole ballast resister thing. I don't know the first thing about wiring one of these, so I don't even know how it all should go. Anyone have pictures and diagrams that I could follow to make sure its wired properly? I dont even know where the ballast should be.

I just went thru thru this on my 12v conversion. The white porcelain device that is being held in place by the white xip strap is an aftermarket resistor. It needs to be replaced with the oem resistor Bruce showed above.

Do yourself a big favor and get the new wiring harness sold here and replace that too.

All of the guys here are very helpful and extremely knowledgeable. .
 

Yes, everything is in the mail. There was a stocking delay. I just hadn't checked the coil until today, but that's now ordered as well. Just a matter of time now. Hopefully this fixes my issues.
 
Well, I finally got everything rewired and replaced. Now its completely dead and doesn't do anything. Ammeter goes up by 2 marks but that's it. No lights no anything. One point of clarity on the diagram. There are 3 alternator wires. 2 are together on a little plug. If I'm reading it right, those 2 join together to form one and then both of those wires head over to the resistor. Other than this possible misunderstanding everything looks right. Any ideas?

Edit: ok looking at another more clear diagram I can see where the two wire connector jumpers over to the main alternator wire and then they go to resistor, so I corrected that, but it does exactly the same thing. No lights, 2 line jump on ammeter, and cometely dead.
 
"Now its completely dead and doesn't do anything."

What does that mean exactly?
The starter won't turn the engine over?
It turns over but won't run or has no spark?

The alternator and it's wiring is in the charging circuit.
You can disconnect all of the wires at the alternator and
the tractor will start and run normally on a charged battery.

I suggest you do just that. Disconnect all the wires from
and forget about the alternator until we get it running.
Then we'll worry about charging the battery.
Those two small wires do not connect together anywhere.

After that we can worry about lights, accessories, etc.

Other than the plug wires, to get an N to run you need one wire.
Power to the coil. On a front mount it should be run through
the ballast resistor but can be run directly for a brief test.
 

Dead means it does absolutely nothing.

A continuity test yielded that one wire in the ignition was crimped too tightly. If I bypass the light switch the lights come on. If I jump the terminals on the starter, it turns over. I think the starter switch and the light switch are bad in addition to a bad connection on the igntion . Oddly the light switch worked before, so no idea what happened there. All other wires had continuity. I'll fix the crimp first on the ignition and see what happens.

Ps. I've combed over the schematic a hundred times. Its pretty straight forward and all my wires look properly placed.
 
Ok, lets look at one circuit at a time.
Charging is separate, lights are separate.
Cranking is separate, but obviously first on the list.
Did you change the solenoid? The 8N solenoid mounts on the
starter and the thumb button supplies ground for it to function.
In order for that to work, you must have the right solenoid
and the small terminal has to be pointed in toward the engine.
It won't work with the small terminal pointed outward.
 

Sorry. Was out of town for several days. I didnt change the solenoid. It engages fine when u jump the terminals. It has 3 terminals. A large one facing the tractor, 2 smaller ones on top, and a large one facing away from the tractor which I have the battery cable hooked to. The smaller one on the top that faces the tractor has the white starter switch attached to it. Are you saying that this set up won't work with the old starter switch?

on another note, I jumped the positive terminal with the terminal the white wire is on and it fired right up. I got it up to the house and then rode around for 15 minutes without issue. I fired it up today (same procedure) backed it up and then it died and wouldn't start again. No spark. Traced it back to the new ballast resistor. The screw that has the coil connected seems dead. I'm not getting any power there. Is it common to get a weak part like this or do you think there was another factor?
 
No problem, we'll still be here!
You said "It has 3 terminals. A large one facing the tractor,
2 smaller ones on top, and a large one facing away from the
tractor"
To me, that sounds like four terminals and nothing like an 8N
solenoid. Maybe someone else has changed it.
Can you post a picture of it? This is an 8N solenoid.
wm_8N11450.jpg
 


The white wire goes to the starter button. The black wire goes to the battery. The red wire goes to the ammeter.
 
That's the type of solenoid that takes power to activate.
(and it works when you apply power)
Your NS switch provides ground instead, so it won't work without
some re-wiring. Easier to me to just get the right solenoid.
It mounts like this picture I borrowed from the web.
Single small terminal not visible as its turned in.

mvphoto13546.jpg
 

What are the odds that this configuration is what fried the terminal on the new resistor? Or was it just a bad resistor?
 
As it is wired now, I wouldn't expect the solenoid to do anything.
Not even a click. So I doubt that caused the wire to fry unless the
wiring was different at that time.
If it had a key switched wire from that terminal to the solenoid
that might have done it.
 
Ok. Decided to post pics of the set up just to make sure I'm not missing something. I think the starter switch is bad, but the ammeter doesn't really do anything either, which makes me wonder if somethings still messed up.







And this is what the ammeter looks like with the key on.

 
If I follow correctly, that looks to be wired right.
The ammeter with the key on, is that key on, engine off?
If so that may be normal too. Current draw through closed points.
Does it start and run now? Does the ammeter show charge when running?
 

Yes that's key on and engine off. It doesn't even make a sound when you depress the old starter button. If all it does is ground out the starter, is it possible the contacts are just dirty or something? Any way to test without having to remove starter button?
 
Absolutely! Just ground that one wire that goes to the switch.
You could do that with a jumper wire or a screwdriver touching
the connector on the switch and the transmission cover.
I probably would use a jumper right at the solenoid first.
If that works, then try it at the switch. (checks the wire in between)
Make sure you have it in neutral, because you're bypassing
the neutral safety switch.
 
Oddly when I ground that wire it sparks and clicks like it's initiating the starting process. Even had it slightly start to turn the motor once, but then it immediately stops and does nothing. Wont even spark again. If I disconnect the positive terminal and reconnect it, it will click and spark again, but only once..then nothing. Any idea why that would be? Obviously something other than the switch going on there.
 
There is either a direct short somewhere or the lack of a good ground. Take your ground wire clean the ends and ground it out at a clean starter cone bolt.
Also make sure the windings are not backwards inside the starter itself.
Will the engine turn freely without the starter in?
Will the starter turn freely when not in the engine?
Is the starter binding up somewhere.
It can bind in the ring gear, in the bindex, between the armature and the field windings (see if there is any scratches on the the armature), and between armature and the brushes.
The commutator (where the brushes contact the armature) may need to be cleaned up. That means that the commutator may be well used and the winding contacts are touching each other. This will diminish the power of the starter by 10 to 13% per contact. What needs to be done is to use caution not to scratch the contacts and clean any debris from between the contacts with a strong sharp utility blade.
Make sure the brushes are tight and not grounding out inside the starter.
Check the armature end bushings one is in the cone and the other is in the end plate. Make sure the bushings are not binding and not wobbled out.
If the starter checks out then try new or cleaned battery cables and connections.
New stronger or reworked solenoid may be in order. and then maybe check wiring.
Good Luck
 
I'll try playing with the ground again, but all wires are new and where the main ground bolts to the tractor was polished. The old solenoid turned over the starter just fine. It ran great as wired until the new resistor fried. I replaced that again as well as the solenoid and this is now the issue.
 
When you ground that wire I would expect it to spark a bit,
then it should energize the solenoid and spin the starter just
as if you had pushed the starter switch.
It is possible with all the testing being done that the battery
is run down or the starter is stuck in the flywheel.
 
If you would have had a voltmeter on it, it would have answered more questions that a Amp meter ever would...

An ammeter takes more skill to read correctly.

Amp-meter lubbers think that and dream up stuff but a voltmeter is the first tool needed to diagnosis a electrical issue

Folks seam to forget these thangs need voltage to run but overlook it and ramble on into other issues... Electrical issues are the hardest issues to diagnose especialy if it has a AMP METER...


BTW a OEM style ignition switch is not the way to go... I would have stayed with the style you had... A dash mounted Voltmeter would have proven it good are bad... Its obvious a amp meter is of know help so far skilled in make believe amp meter logic are not...

I dunno what new wiring harness you got. If its was a standard harness for a 12V conversion with a GM 10si alt you still have some wiring work ahead of ya...
 
Hobo, you'll just ha e to read through this thread. Everything I have done to this tractor in this long and painful process was at the strong recommendation of this forum. The last thing I wanted to do was replace good parts or waste my time.

The battery is fully charged. I've had it on the charger in between and it reads 13 volts.
 
(quoted from post at 16:26:00 12/17/14) Hobo, you'll just ha e to read through this thread. Everything I have done to this tractor in this long and painful process was at the strong recommendation of this forum. The last thing I wanted to do was replace good parts or waste my time.

The battery is fully charged. I've had it on the charger in between and it reads 13 volts.

Your last set of pix are not showing up for me... Google voltage drop test for more info..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paw80mS_Kxg
 
Somehow the pics were goofed up, so here are the photos of the new wiring again.









And this is where the ammeter sits with the key on and engine off.



I ran tests on it again today and here is what I found. If I disconnect the ground and then reconnect, it starts fresh. When I put the voltmeter lead on the ground, I can see that I am getting 12.8 volts of current through the main battery cable and slightly less on to the resistor. I then ground the post on the solenoid in order to attempt a start. It clicks once. After this when I check the main positive cable, I no longer have juice flowing through to the solenoid, which of course means that the resistor doesn't have juice either. At this time I oddly still seem to have continuity in the main positive cable. It basically remains dead like that until I disconnect something and then the process starts all over. Im utterly perplexed. Something steals all of the juice and won't give it back until I break the circuit. I was thinking maybe a bad positive cable, but still having continuity is throwing me off. I did pull the ground and resand that area on the frame. That all looks good though and the ground seems to test out as functional. The voltage drop test doesn't really work in my case, given that once it clicks, its done. Grounding it again no longer produces any effect at this point, as noted above.

Should I start a new thread with this specific issue?
 
That really sounds like a bad connection to me.
Battery cable maybe, or battery post itself?
Could be either the positive or negative cable.
 
1) what does your volt meter read at the battery when it clicks.

2) It clicks once. After this when I check the main positive cable, I no longer have juice flowing through to the solenoid, which of course means that the resistor doesn't have juice either. I was thinking maybe a bad positive cable, but still having continuity is throwing me off.

It may pass a ohm check and still be bad did you perform a voltage drop test on it... You could do a sweep/strike/smoke test on that cable remove it from the solenoid and strike it across the engine does it make a big spark when you strike it...

To deliver battery voltage there are 6 are more connections we can see and check in the circuit and more that are unseen. Your statement that you are losing voltage at the resistor has got to be a TIP and would lead me to check all the connections and battery even if they are all new... Your issue can be on either side of the bat negative are positive...

Go back to #1 confirm battery voltage under static and cranking conditions... I like to strip a wire and clamp it between the bat post and cable end when I have to get down and dirty... I will test with both are at least one lead on the stripped wire depending on what test I am doing...

I would like to see were the ground cable is connected to the tractor... Most of them are connected to a battery box mounting hole were it bolts to the steering gear... That's really not a good grounding point it adds more connections :evil: Ford let us down by not providing a dedicated fool prof grounding point...

I am not gonna write a book on it questions have to be answered its slow but that's the way I play... BTW I see sum'n I don't like but its notcher problem at this time...
 
To take out two more variables would be to take the ground cable RECREMP THE ENDS (to confirm the cable connections, use ballpeen) and attach it to a clean starter cone bolt. This will shorten the distance between the major load and the battery. Electrons in DC voltage flow from negative to positive on the outside of the wire or in this case the block and each bolted connection to the frame chassis and cab. The longer the distance between battery posts the more resistance in the circuit. Each rusty bolted connection adds reissuance, heat and voltage drop to the circuit.
 
(quoted from post at 18:18:56 12/20/14) To take out two more variables would be to take the ground cable RECREMP THE ENDS (to confirm the cable connections, use ballpeen) and attach it to a clean starter cone bolt. This will shorten the distance between the major load and the battery. Electrons in DC voltage flow from negative to positive on the outside of the wire or in this case the block and each bolted connection to the frame chassis and cab. The longer the distance between battery posts the more resistance in the circuit. Each rusty bolted connection adds reissuance, heat and voltage drop to the circuit.

Fatamus,I agree with you.It looks like the ground cable is hoked to the sheet metal battery box.Even if he has a clean tight connection on the cable end the bolts and connection of the box to the clutch housing may be rusted bad and a poor ground to the engine block and starter.
 
(quoted from post at 21:48:16 12/20/14)
(quoted from post at 18:18:56 12/20/14) To take out two more variables would be to take the ground cable RECREMP THE ENDS (to confirm the cable connections, use ballpeen) and attach it to a clean starter cone bolt. This will shorten the distance between the major load and the battery. Electrons in DC voltage flow from negative to positive on the outside of the wire or in this case the block and each bolted connection to the frame chassis and cab. The longer the distance between battery posts the more resistance in the circuit. Each rusty bolted connection adds reissuance, heat and voltage drop to the circuit.

Fatamus,I agree with you.It looks like the ground cable is hoked to the sheet metal battery box.Even if he has a clean tight connection on the cable end the bolts and connection of the box to the clutch housing may be rusted bad and a poor ground to the engine block and starter.
I must have missed that picture.
I don't see where his ground cable is connected.
They were hooked to the steering gear box along with the
battery tray from Ford. Hundreds of thousands of them still
working fine that way as long as its a good connection.
Starter cone bolt on an N? I must have missed that too.
 
agree with the rest of the guys, first things first.
have power, then no power.....
battery and the two cables and their connections on both ends get checked.
Looking good, new, continuity,....all irrevelant until they are checked under a big load.
(I'm not picking on you here, but I see pound marks on a battery clamp, so check that battery post carefully)
When you think it is good, put it in neutral so ya don't squish yourself and jump over the 2 big solenoid terminals.
Turns over?....good. whistle, look at the ceiling for a minute, and do it again.Turns over again..good..now move on to the wiring.
(while you are there, if it turns over jumping the big terminals, then take the plug off the little terminal and with a piece of wire, ground it. Turns over again? ok battery/cables/starter/solenoid are all good...move on)

Even when things look perfect, they will fool ya sometimes.
Went to start a N once, turned the key, hit the button..click.
Just happened to be looking the right way, and saw a single spark fly off the solenoid terminal. Looked the solenoid/cable connection over.....nothing wrong here, clean and tight.
Took it apart anyway and redid it. problem solved.

tip, when I am trying to get old junk running.
After a good battery and cables are installed and connection points clean.
I hook a jumper cable to the ground battery post/clamp and hook the other end to good iron or steel as near to the starter as I can. Takes some weak factory designs out of the mix.

ps From what I can see, if you get it running, the key probably won't shut it off, but the guys can fix that up quick.
 
(quoted from post at 17:03:47 12/21/14) agree with the rest of the guys, first things first.
have power, then no power.....
battery and the two cables and their connections on both ends get checked.
Looking good, new, continuity,....all irrevelant until they are checked under a big load.
(I'm not picking on you here, but I see pound marks on a battery clamp, so check that battery post carefully)
When you think it is good, put it in neutral so ya don't squish yourself and jump over the 2 big solenoid terminals.
Turns over?....good. whistle, look at the ceiling for a minute, and do it again.Turns over again..good..now move on to the wiring.
(while you are there, if it turns over jumping the big terminals, then take the plug off the little terminal and with a piece of wire, ground it. Turns over again? ok battery/cables/starter/solenoid are all good...move on)

Even when things look perfect, they will fool ya sometimes.
Went to start a N once, turned the key, hit the button..click.
Just happened to be looking the right way, and saw a single spark fly off the solenoid terminal. Looked the solenoid/cable connection over.....nothing wrong here, clean and tight.
Took it apart anyway and redid it. problem solved.

tip, when I am trying to get old junk running.
After a good battery and cables are installed and connection points clean.
I hook a jumper cable to the ground battery post/clamp and hook the other end to good iron or steel as near to the starter as I can. Takes some weak factory designs out of the mix.

ps From what I can see, if you get it running, the key probably won't shut it off, but the guys can fix that up quick.

There is a difference tween a positive and negative battery cable other than there color... They will work either way if you own a hammer... :D ... New means nuttin to me other than if its defective its a real headache...

His bad connection should not be a problem to find as long as its not the battery even then test at the bat post (not the cable end) to rule out the battery are the connection at the battery...

I don't want to go out on a limb but I have seen my share of poorly crimped NEW cable ends... Its what you don't see that will get'ya... The most common on the lug end were they do not strip back the insulation... Once removed you can see the insulation looking at the bolt hole... MY take is the lug is a round tube they insert the cable and have a die that crimps/forms and punches the hole at the same time... :twisted: That process has always been a issue...

While we are at it remove the lug end of the cable and snap a pix of'em...
 
Here is the picture of the ground location.



As a reminder, the brand new resistor recently failed and was again replaced. I was using the type of solenoid that requires power, vs. the one on it now which requires ground, and I was jumping the terminals to start the tractor. All other cables are the same. So, the battery and grounds all worked fine before the resistor acted up and before I replaced the solenoid. The battery itself always checks out fine at the terminals even after it clicks.

When I get time again, Ill run through some of your additional thoughts here and see what I can stir up.

As far as the voltage drop test goes...seems inconclusive given the way that its responding. If I am touching both ends of the positive cable, under normal circumstances what should the volt reading be? At first it was zero. After click it showed full 12 volts even when I would take the probes off and put them back on again. Im failing to remember further details there, so I will try that test again and better document the results. Ill get back here as soon as I can. I appreciate all of the help....and Merry Christmas!
 
Although resistance-free connections, wires and cables would be ideal, most of them will contain at least some voltage drop. If your manuals do not list voltage drop values, use the following as maximum limits:
0.00V across a connection
0.20V across a wire or cable
0.30V across a switch
0.10V at a ground

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uses/com...cleCategories/Electrical/DiagnoseVoltDrop.htm

iF i UNDERSTAND YOU RIGHT YOU ARE LOSSING 12v..
 
Here are the new numbers for a voltage drop test. I did it twice to compare. I also cleaned the battery terminals really good, but to no avail.

Before the test
12.32 volts at the battery posts
12.05 at left resistor post
11.84 at right resistor post
12.20 at middle resistor post

The positive battery cable showed .03 volts before starting. This is by placing a vm lead on both ends of the cable.

Results after test 1

12.55 volts at the cable itself with vm lead on both ends as before
12.67 at left resistor post
12.70 at right resistor post
12.71 at middle resistor post
Now 12.74 at bat. The voltage went up at the battery over its pre click numbers.
After the click, the ammeter no longer moves and it doesn't do anything until you break the circuit again.

Test 2

12.32 volts at battery posts to start
.02 at cable Before the start and after I broke the circuit and reconnected
12.10 left resistor post
11.89 right resistor post
12.24 mid resistor post

After click
12.54 volts through cable
12.61 left resistor post
12.64 Right resistor post
12.68 middle
12.71 at bat

So is all of that indicating that this new battery cable is toast? Could that be the single source of my pain?
 

Eureka! I had my wife pick up a cable on the way home. Runs like a champ now!!! Can't believe that brand new cable was the issue.

Now what's wrong with the key. It's wired according to jmor's diagram.

Thanks for all the help and patience.
 
"Now what's wrong with the key."

I think he may have been talking about not seeing a diode
in the excite wire to the alternator. Some will shut off without
it but most will need a diode or marker lamp, etc in there.

Glad you found the bad connection and got it running!
 

i will chiffer it out later till then CLEAN the battery post they look suspect...

1) Place a VM lead on the negative post and one one the positive post hit the starter what is the voltage....

Leaver out all the other test like
12.05 at left resistor post
11.84 at right resistor post
12.20 at middle resistor post

I could care less about those readings I assume it will not crank the engine over...

Time for a RE_DO...

put one voltmeter lead on the battery post lets start with the positive,,, all VM leads will stay on the positive cable while testing the positive side...

2) One lead on the positive post one on the positive cable end at the battery post hit the starter your voltage drop (loss) should be 0 no less than .002

3) If good clamp one lead to the positive cable end at the battery (leave it there till you complete the positive side test It will stay there till you find a voltage drop (loss) ) ... I like to give the insulation of the cable its vaccination (optional) by sticking a needle in it and attaching the other end of the VM lead to it... Hit the starter your voltage drop (loss) should be 0 no more than .002

3A) Are you can go to the lug end (The lug not the stud on the solenoid) of the positive cable and attach the other VM lead there (leave the other lead on the positive cable end)

4) If good hook to the battery side of the solenoid stud and hit the starter switch...

5) if good move the lead to the starter side of the solinoid hit the starter.

6) if good go to the starter post (its optional to test each connection for the cable/bar that connects the solenoid/starter) hit the starter.

That completes the positive side the negative side test the same, one VM lead will remain on the negative battery cable end at the battery the other will move along the negative cable.
Once you confirm the negative cable is good (leave one end of the lead on the battery cable end at the battery) you would attach a lead to the bolt that retains the cable if good to the chassis if good to the starter motor.

I spec by now folks are say'N just spike the two lung ends of the cable's together do you get a FAT spark :lol: ( Yes I am thinking that)... Are strike the positive cable again the engine block (MacGyver test)

Its not that hard to do a voltage drop test once you get it in your head... MacGyver test are a NO-NO at my day job...

One half of a volt is a general acceptable maximum limit voltage specification to go by on most vehicle starter/battery circuits.

When the circuit you are testing is normal (very little to no resistance), the voltmeter will barely show an increase at all (less than 0.5 volts in general on a high load circuit like a starter).

Q: OK, why is a voltmeter used instead of an ohm meter?
A: An ohm meter uses it’s own internal battery to measure resistance, not the circuit’s power source. It is a good test for very small wires that require very small amperage to operate but NOT for thick battery cables! An ohm meter just doesn’t flow enough amperage to find resistance in large conductors. A known-bad battery cable can test perfectly good using an ohm meter but not be able to carry enough amperage to a starter while cranking.


http://www.autotechnician.org/starter-voltage-drop-test-explained-in-plain-english/

http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm

Viedo at 8:30 he has checked the circuit using voltage,,, at 9:30 he uses voltage drop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aioZN33xsA



Another way..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRPLgH6uZg

voltage drop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6Z-hWzIgDY

CLEAN THOSE BATTERY POST :twisted:
 
Hobo, I'm confused on your post. Did you miss the previous couple of post somehow or post at the same time or something? I mentioned that i cleaned the battery posts and those numbers I posted were data from the voltage drop test. The cable showed almost zero Before starting....but then at start jumped to total voltage loss. I replaced the cable and it works like a champ. I did do a strike test with the old cable. I did forget to mention that. It did spark when grounded on the block.

Now I'm asking about the ignition. Someone mentioned that it wouldnt shut off he motor. They were correct. It would not. It actually sparked when I tried.

Royse, I don't know what you mean by a diode on the alternator wire.

Thanks
 
Circled in blue here on JMOR's 9N/2N wiring diagram.
Diode goes in the same place on an 8N.

mvphoto14305.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 05:48:42 12/24/14) Hobo, I'm confused on your post. Did you miss the previous couple of post somehow or post at the same time or something? I mentioned that i cleaned the battery posts and those numbers I posted were data from the voltage drop test. The cable showed almost zero Before starting....but then at start jumped to total voltage loss. I replaced the cable and it works like a champ. I did do a strike test with the old cable. I did forget to mention that. It did spark when grounded on the block.

Now I'm asking about the ignition. Someone mentioned that it wouldnt shut off he motor. They were correct. It would not. It actually sparked when I tried.

Royse, I don't know what you mean by a diode on the alternator wire.

Thanks

Probably cuzz I am a slow type'er.... It still would be interesting to KNOW were the issue is with the NEW cable...

If you had left the original ignition switch on it are replaced it with one JUST like it You would be home free as far as wiring up the alt... Now you have added about as sorry a switch as I have ever had the pleasure of messing with.. One thang I agree with as preached by Dell,,, its a weak P>O>S> and should be outlawed...

Your excite wire for the alt is a issue I will let others help you with that...
 
What does the diode on the eXcite wire do? I still have the old ignition. What's on there now is what you get when you try to take it back to original wiring. All the options looked the same to me when purchasing.
 
It is essentially a one way electrical valve.
It allows voltage to the alternator when the key is on, but
prevents voltage from back-feeding the ignition from the
alternator when the key is turned off. That back-feed is what
powers the ignition and keeps the engine running when the
key is turned off. A package of four is about $2 at Radio Shack.
At least they were the last time I bought them.
 
I can only find the 1N5404 diode. Will that work? Looks like the only difference is that it's 600volts vs 1000volts for the 1N5408.
 

Looks like for the install, the striped side goes towards the alternator, correct? Is there a preferred method for attaching it? Looking at it, it would seem just a basic cylinder type wire crimp would do the trick. Thanks.
 
You've got it right, stripe toward the alternator. I like to solder
mine and use heat shrink tubing, but a crimp on will work.
You may want to support it in a way that it doesn't break.
Tape it to the other wires, etc.
Makes no difference if it is mounted at the alternator or at the
dash board, but I usually mount them at the alternator where
the plug in pigtail ends.
 
You have no idea how good it feels to have brush bogged my field today! A big hearty thank you to all of you who took the time to help me getr back in shape!! She ran good and turned on and off like it was supposed to. :D
 

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