Yet another no start - new symptom

Paul in Edmonton · Dec 15, 2014

I'm not going to test your patience with a general no-start question. (Bruce--you don't need to post your usual response--I have a copy printed out!) I'll bring my full toolbox with me to diagnose it properly next time I head out to the cabin. (Heck, I'll even bring along my spare points, coil, and condenser in case it turns out to be a spark issue. But never fear, I won't install them without first making sure they need to be installed!)

But I found something odd when trying to get it to start yesterday. (see below) In the meantime, I cleaned the spark plugs three times (with a torch), heated up the intake manifold, and removed the oil cup from the air cleaner. Didn't try ether, 'cause I didn't have any. I'll bring that out next time, too.

6V Front Mount 8N

First off, I was starting it using 12V straight to the starter, so the 6V battery only had to power the ignition.

So here's the odd part:

A couple times I had it *almost* running--it ran for maybe five seconds each time, but at *really* low speed (maybe a couple coughs per second). Each time it would not respond to the throttle. I've never seen this before, and I'm wondering if it might mean anything... Anyone have that happen before, and is there a problem it might be pointing at?

Thanks,

-Paul

old · Dec 15, 2014

You need to do some simple trouble shooting. Check that the firing order is correct. #2 check spark at all four plug wires. Spark needs to be a blue/white in color and jump a 1/4 inch gap. Next pull the carb drain plug and make sure you have a good steady flow of gas for a few minutes. Catch the gas to look for water/dirt. Next pull the air cleaner tube off and hold your hand over the air intake of the carb. Spin it over while you do that and make sure it has a good suction there and your hand should get gas on it

Bruce (VA) · Dec 15, 2014

What's the temp up there?

In fahrenheit, pls Paul!
75 Tips

Paul in Edmonton · Dec 15, 2014

(quoted from post at 17:55:35 12/15/14) What's the temp up there?

In fahrenheit, pls Paul!

It was well above zero F. Probably closer to 20F. All in all a mild day that wouldn't usually be problem for starting an 8N.

It wasn't having any problems turning over with the starter, like it would on a cold day.

-Paul

Dell (WA) · Dec 16, 2014

Paul.......12-volts straight to the starter bolt is NOTTA problem.

You replaced yer sparkies and now it "almost" starts and runs......"almost starts" sounds like miss-wired sparkies. Firing order is: 1,2,4,3 CCW with #1 closest to radiator. When you re-wired yer sparkies, didja use modern "string" sparkie wire ...or... OLD FASHIONED copper core sparkie wire like you need to. Modern string sparkie wire will BREAK inside the insulation and cause intermittent runnin'. ........yer sparkie-meister Dell

Paul in Edmonton · Dec 16, 2014

Dell: Same wires as before. Bought two years ago from the other 8N supplier (since this site won't ship to Canada). They run through the tube, so the wires go to the same cylinders they did last time it ran well (which was maybe a month ago).

I'm still wondering if there is a particular issue (besides miswired sparkies) that can lead to the engine running really slowly for several seconds before quitting...

-Paul

souNdguy · Dec 16, 2014

do a thumb compression test. you might have some stuck valves...

Bruce (VA) · Dec 16, 2014

" but at *really* low speed (maybe a couple coughs per second). Each time it would not respond to the throttle."

On the few occasions that I've had that happen, it's always been on the frontmounts & always been moisture in the cap.

But at 20* F.......probably not in your case!
75 Tips

Larry in WNY · Dec 16, 2014

Paul,
A few ideas based on my own experience keeping my 2N running. Verify the choke plate in the carb. is moving. Could be choking out assuming you do not have fuel flow issues. Also check for a stuck float, correct float level or stuck needle valve in the carb. There is a pin on the throttle shaft that can work loose too so you won't have any increase in fuel when moving the lever.

I live 30 miles from Buffalo, NY. I use my 2N to plow snow with a front blade and at times drag snow backwards from the road into a pile. The fan will pull fine snow thru the radiator and eventually water builds up in the distributor cap. To remedy this I have a bird feed bag covering 3/4 of the radiator. It helps a ton, but eventually normal condensation will collect water in the cap again. A quick removal and wipe down with WD40 and it's running well again. My 2N has 12 volt alternator, battery, lower rad. hose heater and Zenith carb. which I added after having issues with the old one. In 4 years the only time it failed to start was from water in the cap or a dead battery. Good luck with your 8N. Eventually you will track down the cause(s).

Larry

Paul in Edmonton · Dec 16, 2014

(quoted from post at 10:11:14 12/16/14) do a thumb compression test. you might have some stuck valves...

That is what I was wondering. I didn't add this detail, because I didn't want to bias the answers, but I felt that the engine was turning over too easily/quickly (even given 12V to the starter).

The first thing I intend to do next time I'm out there (other than put a charger on the battery) is a compression test. (Not just a thumb one, either.)

-Paul

Paul in Edmonton · Dec 16, 2014

On the few occasions that I've had that happen, it's always been on the frontmounts & always been moisture in the cap.

But at 20* F.......probably not in your case!

I do intend to check points (might as well check timing while it's off), if it passes the compression test. So I'll be checking for moisture. (Note to self--make sure some WD-40 is in my toolbox, in case there's none out there...) The tractor has got 6" of snow sitting on it right now, so it's not impossible. But around here, if it's not actually raining or snowing, the humidity tends to be quite low.

-Paul

Tall T · Dec 16, 2014

Paul,

There is an Amsoil warehouse in Edmonton. Do yourself a HUGE favor and replace your next to worthless WD with Amsoil MP.

It displaces moisture from freshwater or saltwater to help prevent corrosion, and it is the product of choice for drying and [b:4006b37566]protecting electrical and ignition systems.[/b:4006b37566] It penetrates deep through rust and corrosion to restore movement of rusty parts. It is excellent for protecting firearms and other fine componentry, and it helps prevent jamming, especially in cold weather. Metal Protector contains no silicone, and is compatible with plastic, leather, fabric, fishing line and paint.

I baby old ignition switches to last forever with this stuff . . . like my Jube with its original switch and key. I spray a little right into the key slot and it will NEVER get gummy!!!

By the way, what is that other parts source you alluded to?
I also found out that Yesterday's wouldn't ship to canada . . . except for the manuals, that is, so I bought those. There are also two Canadian tractor parts sources in the Vancouver area . . . Prairie coast Equip and Avenue Machinery under the "All Parts" banner. A kingpin and spindle is only about $10 more than U.S. price but the bushings and thrust etc., can't be bought as a kit like they can at yesterday's . . .I don't think.

Cheers,
T

Paul in Edmonton · Dec 16, 2014

By the way, what is that other parts source you alluded to?
I also found out that Yesterday's wouldn't ship to canada . . . except for the manuals, that is, so I bought those.

I don't think this site allows for it to be stated outright, but this should give a hint: Just 8Ns.

-Paul

souNdguy · Dec 16, 2014

When you mentioned how good it rolled over but no start but
some coughing, made me think stuck valves. Keep us posted

Paul in Edmonton · Dec 30, 2014

Just checking in. Haven't been out to the tractor since I started this thread. Went skiing, had Christmas, and then it got cold out... (For me, "cold" starts at 0°F.) Now it looks like it might warm up for a couple days, but I've got a tradesman working at the house, and by the time he's done it's forecasted to be cold again. Oh well, one of these days I'll get out there. But if it snows much before that, I'll be walking in from the road.

-Paul

tracman · Dec 30, 2014

(quoted from post at 13:16:16 12/30/14) Just checking in.
Paul,
Did you check your gas?
Make sure you got a good flow out the drain in your carb. It only takes a minute to check and you also may drain the water that may have accumulated. I have trouble with the float sticking when the weather gets cold. The tractor runs then quits when this happens.

Paul in Edmonton · Jan 17, 2015

Okay, so I *finally* got back out there. Put a charger on the battery first. (Meant dragging a generator through the snow...) Did a compression test first. Not great, but on-par with what they've been since I got this tractor (~90 psi, a bit higher on #4), except that #1 read 70 on the dry test. A glug of oil in the spark hole and it went back up to 90. (I'm presuming that's a ring problem. Question: Do rings come loose once the engine starts, or is running it like that a bad idea?)

Put an opened up sparkie on each of the four cables (I don't know if it was opened up to a full 1/4", but it was far more open than the 0.025.) Got a white/blue spark on each cable. Checked the gap on each of the four installed sparkies. (Since I was getting spark, I didn't bother doing anything with points. I'll check them in the summer.

Topped up the fuel tank (although I'm pretty sure it wasn't that low). Opened up the drain on the carb, and got a continuous stream.

Opened up the hose into the carb, and gave it a good shot of ether. Turned on the ignition, and hit the starter with 12V from my truck. Started right up.

So I have no idea what the problem was, since I didn't fix anything. Is it possible that a couple of freeze-thaw cycles could have freed up a stuck valve?

But all is not totally rosy. I don't think the engine was getting up to full speed. I had the throttle lever set at its highest, but it just didn't seem that the engine was running at full speed-not slow, just not as fast as I thought it should be. It had sufficient power, though. I got some snow plowed, and it worked fine. However, there was also a vibration that bothered me. I only noticed it when the engine wasn't loaded. (I couldn't hear it when I was plowing).

-Paul

NoNewParts · Jan 18, 2015

check everything mentioned.
your first scenario is fairly common in the cold with a tired engine with marginal ignition.
chugging slowly, won't rev up and stalls is the engine starting on 1 or 2 cylinders with the others doing nothing.
(On a cold day, you can see it in the exhaust, it'll look like a diesel with the mixture not firing being pushed out....)

your success later, but still not right could be 1 cylinder still not firing. Usually using it will get the balky one going, but with a weak ignition....maybe not.
pulling the plugs and taking a look is pretty simple and will show without a doubt.
I usually know before I get the plug actually out. The one that didn't burn my cold fingers is the culprit.

Paul in Edmonton · Feb 9, 2015

Update from a couple weeks later...

It was around 0°F--colder than we would normally go to the cabin, but it was a nice, sunny day, and I wanted to deal with the snow from earlier in the week.

I warmed up the oil pan and the intake manifold with a Tiger Torch. I sprayed some ether into the air cleaner intake (I didn't feel like taking the hose off the carb.) And it started right up from its own 6V battery, no boosting from the truck was necessary, and I didn't need to put a charger on it.

I noticed the same vibration issue when idling, but it seemed fine under load, and I had full power available for plowing.

It's a tired old engine that needs a rebuild. But I'll try to keep it going for another year or two, first, since I have another vehicle rebuild underway already...

-Paul

oldtanker · Feb 9, 2015

(quoted from post at 09:13:43 02/09/15) Update from a couple weeks later...

It was around 0°F--colder than we would normally go to the cabin, but it was a nice, sunny day, and I wanted to deal with the snow from earlier in the week.

I warmed up the oil pan and the intake manifold with a Tiger Torch. I sprayed some ether into the air cleaner intake (I didn't feel like taking the hose off the carb.) And it started right up from its own 6V battery, no boosting from the truck was necessary, and I didn't need to put a charger on it.

I noticed the same vibration issue when idling, but it seemed fine under load, and I had full power available for plowing.

It's a tired old engine that needs a rebuild. But I'll try to keep it going for another year or two, first, since I have another vehicle rebuild underway already...

-Paul

I'd start looking at the Carb and busing wear in the distributer. Friends 8N was running as you described last fall. Problem one was point gap caused by cheap points rub block excessive wear. While I had the distributer out I noticed that the shaft has a lot of play in it. So after it was running it caused the same symptoms you are describing. Because he's a wimp and hides in AZ during the winter I'll rebuild his distributor in the spring.

Rick

Yet another no start - new symptom

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