Welding on tractor and transmission noise

jural

Member
I recently found out that my starter ring gear was slipping on the flywheel. I have decided to do 4 tack welds to hold it in place. I have read of others doing this with success. Plus this is a working tractor and I got it on the cheap and can't put too much into it. Should I ground my welding lead to the front pulley attached to the crank to keep current from passing through the main bearings? I am afraid that they could become damaged otherwise. And I have quite a bit of transmission noise when the tractor is pulling. The oil looks clear and feels fine. Is this a common condition of this tractor (9N)? Is there an additive that may help? Thanks for the advice.

Rob
 
(quoted from post at 23:14:32 12/04/14) I recently found out that my starter ring gear was slipping on the flywheel. I have decided to do 4 tack welds to hold it in place. I have read of others doing this with success. Plus this is a working tractor and I got it on the cheap and can't put too much into it. Should I ground my welding lead to the front pulley attached to the crank to keep current from passing through the main bearings? I am afraid that they could become damaged otherwise. And I have quite a bit of transmission noise when the tractor is pulling. The oil looks clear and feels fine. Is this a common condition of this tractor (9N)? Is there an additive that may help? Thanks for the advice.

Rob

Why gamble, it is only 4 bolts to remove the flywheel!
 
(quoted from post at 10:41:51 12/04/14)
(quoted from post at 23:14:32 12/04/14) I recently found out that my starter ring gear was slipping on the flywheel. I have decided to do 4 tack welds to hold it in place. I have read of others doing this with success. Plus this is a working tractor and I got it on the cheap and can't put too much into it. Should I ground my welding lead to the front pulley attached to the crank to keep current from passing through the main bearings? I am afraid that they could become damaged otherwise. And I have quite a bit of transmission noise when the tractor is pulling. The oil looks clear and feels fine. Is this a common condition of this tractor (9N)? Is there an additive that may help? Thanks for the advice.

Rob

Why gamble, it is only 4 bolts to remove the flywheel!
............but a lot more work to split the tractor! I have welded several through the starter mounting hole. Don't think I gave the bearings a thought. All has been well.
 
(quoted from post at 00:02:38 12/05/14)
(quoted from post at 10:41:51 12/04/14)
(quoted from post at 23:14:32 12/04/14) I recently found out that my starter ring gear was slipping on the flywheel. I have decided to do 4 tack welds to hold it in place. I have read of others doing this with success. Plus this is a working tractor and I got it on the cheap and can't put too much into it. Should I ground my welding lead to the front pulley attached to the crank to keep current from passing through the main bearings? I am afraid that they could become damaged otherwise. And I have quite a bit of transmission noise when the tractor is pulling. The oil looks clear and feels fine. Is this a common condition of this tractor (9N)? Is there an additive that may help? Thanks for the advice.

Rob

Why gamble, it is only 4 bolts to remove the flywheel!
............but a lot more work to split the tractor! I have welded several through the starter mounting hole. Don't think I gave the bearings a thought. All has been well.

I did not realize or think about welding thru the starter hole! I just assumed that he had already split the tractor. learn something everyday!! :lol:
 
Yes, 4 good tacks through the starter hole and it will hold fine. If you ever split it you can re do it then - if you care.
Very important to not ground to the chassis as you can wreck your bearings when it arcs across them.
I had my neighbor hold the ground on the front pulley.
Easy - and cheap - way to fix it.
 
I recently asked the same question about the transmission noise in my 2N. I got some very good responses and found out that the 9N and the earlier 2N had a straight drive gear making them much noisier than the later 2N and 8N which have a helical drive gear. It was also suggested that the lighter trans/hydraulic which I had in mine fluid would contribute to the noise. I changed the fluid to 90W mineral oil and it cut down the noise about 50%.
 

Someone told me once that arc welding of that nature could wreck the alternator -- I think it was. So I'd disconnect the battery and pull the alt wires.
 

Del,
They used to call the early truck transmissions with square cut gears, "crashbox" transmissions.
 
With oil film on the bearings and the low voltage of the arc, do you really believe that an arc can jump between the crank journals and the bearing surface?
Anybody got any hard data?
 
All great advice. I would rather err on the side of caution. That is why I asked about the pulley. But I will ground to the ring gear to be extra cautious. I will also replace the oil in the transmission to see how it does.
 
Jerry,
Seems strange to me too.
Only arcing I would expect or have ever seen is at the ground clamp connection only.

Jural,

Welding in the Bush - Ultimate Field Guide
www.ultimatefieldguide.com/Survival/welding_in_the_bush.htm - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight
When experiencing a breakdown in the bush, the ability to weld can often make the ... [b:3608a37e6c]If welding is done on the vehicle, disconnect the alternator to prevent ...
[/b:3608a37e6c]
Do I Need To Remove The Alternator From A Car Before Welding ...
cars.blurtit.com/ 38465/ do-i-need-to-remove-the-alternator-from-a-car-before-welding-body-par ts - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight

Answer (1 of 2): When MIG or arc welding on a car[b:3608a37e6c] always disconnect the alternator[/b:3608a37e6c] by removing the wiring carefully and labelling each wire as you take it off to ...

___________________________

Disconnect the battery and alternator or generator cables if you are welding on the vehicle.
Since welding uses electricity at high amperage, electrical components on your vehicle may be damaged if the battery cables are left connected.

Hard enough evidence?

T
 
Excellent point. I had not considered that. Thank you for mentioning it. I will disconnect everything prior to doing any welding.

Rob
 
(quoted from post at 15:46:03 12/04/14) Jerry,
Seems strange to me too.
Only arcing I would expect or have ever seen is at the ground clamp connection only.

Jural,

Welding in the Bush - Ultimate Field Guide
www.ultimatefieldguide.com/Survival/welding_in_the_bush.htm - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight
When experiencing a breakdown in the bush, the ability to weld can often make the ... [b:13833baa79]If welding is done on the vehicle, disconnect the alternator to prevent ...
[/b:13833baa79]
Do I Need To Remove The Alternator From A Car Before Welding ...
cars.blurtit.com/ 38465/ do-i-need-to-remove-the-alternator-from-a-car-before-welding-body-par ts - View by Ixquick Proxy - Highlight

Answer (1 of 2): When MIG or arc welding on a car[b:13833baa79] always disconnect the alternator[/b:13833baa79] by removing the wiring carefully and labelling each wire as you take it off to ...

___________________________

Disconnect the battery and alternator or generator cables if you are welding on the vehicle.
Since welding uses electricity at high amperage, electrical components on your vehicle may be damaged if the battery cables are left connected.

Hard enough evidence?

T
o. Welded on vehicles (100s) all my life & never disconnected a thing & never damaged any electrical thing. My Dad probably welded on thousands & no harm.
He even used his SA-200 DC machine to jump start his PU that had a bad battery! Nothing damaged.
There are many things that "people have heard" & unfortunately repeated. Don't risk your mother's back now,......... avoid stepping on a crack! :wink:
 
Jerry,
If you have the ground clamp hooked to the chassis and you're arc welding on the flywheel how does the current pass between them EXCEPT through the crank bearings - or possibly through the bearings in the transmission?
And if the current is heavy enough to melt the electrode, what can it do to your bearings/journals?
Back in the mid 80s I worked as a welder for a big engine machine shop up in Anchorage for a couple of years and did all kinds of odd ball things like that. I was told that hooking the ground directly to the crank was the only way to do it. I didn't question it - because it made sense.
As to whether the arc would bother the onboard electrics it's doubtful it would hurt it.
We never disconnected the battery. But if you're worried about it it doesn't take long to disconnect the ground.
 
Man you sure don't tread lightly!
You basically implied that I'm easy prey for superstitious nonsense.

But that's OK, I'm thin skinned.
I'm no electrical whiz so I just do what I'm told when it can't hurt. Like Ultradog said, it never hurts to err on the side of caution. :)

Oh . . . and no one ever said electrical system damage was a given, just a possibility.

But you're right . . . I definitely misused used the term "hard evidence" and I thought about how that was the wrong thing to call it just after I posted that reply.

TT :)
 
From my limited experience as a welder, the last 15 years and growing up in a welding shop. We always disconnect one of the wires from the battery on any newer vehicle that has a computer controlled engine. We were told by a Chevrolet tech support person to do this because of the sensitively of the tiny electrical parts in the computer being vulnerable to damage by mig welding. I have never had a computer damaged from welding that I know of, but I have had a couple computers crap out on a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a Dodge Ram 1/2 ton pickup. I don't believe that I am a backwoods superstitious hayseed, but I would rather be cautious on that than chance having to pay a couple hundred dollars to replace an ECM. I have never heard of any alternator being damaged by welding on the same note, and I have welded on quite a few older vehicles with alternators and some with generators without disconnecting anything. As far as the acr damage on the crank shaft and main bearings. As long as you are grounded to the crank, there would be no reason for an arc to jump between the two. I have damaged roller and ball bearings in the past by grounding on the opposite side and welding on a shaft. It will pit a ball or roller bearing causing some damage to the parts that arc.... We have a pipe welding roller that rolls the pipe on 4 bearings with an electric motor applying the rotation through a gear reduction unit, chain, and rubber tire. I wasn't thinking one day and grounded to the table and not on the pipe, had to replace 3 of the 4 bearings afterwards..

Jeff
 
(quoted from post at 19:27:46 12/04/14) From my limited experience as a welder, the last 15 years and growing up in a welding shop. We always disconnect one of the wires from the battery on any newer vehicle that has a computer controlled engine. We were told by a Chevrolet tech support person to do this because of the sensitively of the tiny electrical parts in the computer being vulnerable to damage by mig welding. I have never had a computer damaged from welding that I know of, but I have had a couple computers crap out on a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a Dodge Ram 1/2 ton pickup. I don't believe that I am a backwoods superstitious hayseed, but I would rather be cautious on that than chance having to pay a couple hundred dollars to replace an ECM. I have never heard of any alternator being damaged by welding on the same note, and I have welded on quite a few older vehicles with alternators and some with generators without disconnecting anything. As far as the acr damage on the crank shaft and main bearings. As long as you are grounded to the crank, there would be no reason for an arc to jump between the two. I have damaged roller and ball bearings in the past by grounding on the opposite side and welding on a shaft. It will pit a ball or roller bearing causing some damage to the parts that arc.... We have a pipe welding roller that rolls the pipe on 4 bearings with an electric motor applying the rotation through a gear reduction unit, chain, and rubber tire. I wasn't thinking one day and grounded to the table and not on the pipe, had to replace 3 of the 4 bearings afterwards..

Jeff
'm telling you, I have looked & looked for the computer/ECM on these N tractors & just can't find! :wink:
 

You're giving yourself away JMOR.

You wrote:
"Welded on vehicles (100s) all my life & never disconnected a thing & never damaged any electrical thing. My Dad probably welded on thousands & no harm."

So if you knew about the "disconnect before welding" caution as only applying to computer equipped vehicles, then why didn't you qualify the above statement when you wrote it?

If you [b:d1b46a27d1]didn't[/b:d1b46a27d1] know that, then a little humility not sarcasm about 8N computers is in order. :D
 
(quoted from post at 20:33:12 12/04/14)
You're giving yourself away JMOR.

You wrote:
"Welded on vehicles (100s) all my life & never disconnected a thing & never damaged any electrical thing. My Dad probably welded on thousands & no harm."

So if you knew about the "disconnect before welding" caution as only applying to computer equipped vehicles, then why didn't you qualify the above statement when you wrote it?

If you [b:9a15377227]didn't[/b:9a15377227] know that, then a little humility not sarcasm about 8N computers is in order. :D
ot one post but twice you said "disconnect alternators". So, what is it that you are raving on about? If anyone had any real problems to work, I would be working them, but it looks like nothing going on lately except BS.
Tall T
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Welding on tractor and transmission noise Reply to specific post Reply with quote

Someone told me once that arc welding of that nature could wreck the alternator -- I think it was. So I'd disconnect the battery and pull the alt wires.
 
I was a welder dude for trucking outfits for 18 years, built several winch trucks and lotsa water trucks, lotta welding on the truck, in other words. you never know what that arc will do going through a lot of moving parts, so yep, ground the solid piece you will be making sparks on(the crank}. I always unhook the battery when welding, never know what might happen, computers or not. I saw a battery blow up, on the opposite side of the truck from the welder, might have been a gassy battery and a spark, could have back fed through a ground, coulda been gremlins, who knows. Like someone else said, err on the side of caution. right under the batt like that id probly just pull it out completely, set it in the corner. 10 min extra could save a $60 batt and having battery acid dripping off your nose. just my nickles worth, your mileage may vary.
 
Chrysler electronics are well all Chrysler electronics compute are not have issues... Ell must be full of'em....

Edit,,, forgot the original question,,,, weld it run'n...

TT have you took your Hormone pill this week... :D
 

I like you JMOR, refreshing sarcasm. On a side note, at one point I had thought it would be fun to put an LS1 (Corvette Engine) in my 2N. So that would give me a computer in my N, but you are right there are none in the N's
 
I understand your argument and I can"t refute it. you obviously made a successful weld doing that.

I would think that if you weld on the crank or the flywheel, you"d attach the ground to the crank (via the crank bolt, pull the lower clutch cover off and clamp directly to the flywheel, etc) not the chassis. That would be the path of least resistance
 
Two jack stands and an 11/16" wrench and you can split the tractor in 20 minutes. Then you can just press the ring on properly if it is still useable. Who knows? It may be a good time to freshen up the through-out bearing, and friction disc. Not really a big job.
 

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