Thinning out Hydro fluid on an 8N

Added external hydraulics including a vane pump and now hear that the pump strains or cavitate's in this cold weather (20 degrees) other wise in the past I just needed to run the tractor a bit to get the fluid moving to operate the rear lift.

Replaced hydro fluid early last summer and used TSC's Ford Tractor fluid. Pretty heavy in the summer months and now flows like molasses in the winter.

Anyhow I want to thin it out some. Any recommendations?
Thinking diesel or kerosene will lessen the lubrication properties of the hydro fluid.

TX
 
(quoted from post at 09:08:08 12/02/14) Added external hydraulics including a vane pump and now hear that the pump strains or cavitate's in this cold weather (20 degrees) other wise in the past I just needed to run the tractor a bit to get the fluid moving to operate the rear lift.

Replaced hydro fluid early last summer and used TSC's Ford Tractor fluid. Pretty heavy in the summer months and now flows like molasses in the winter.

Anyhow I want to thin it out some. Any recommendations?
Thinking diesel or kerosene will lessen the lubrication properties of the hydro fluid.

TX

Thin it with a lighter grade of hydraulic fluid - preferably one suitable for use in a a common sump tractor - not diesel or kerosene.

To make any substantial change you will need to add quite a bit so I would suggest completely replacing it with a more appropriate grade. $40 bucks will get you a 5 gallon pail of premium UTF at TSC if you want to stick with the viscosity what Ford recommended. That should be fine at 20F but if you want a little lower viscosity formulation find one that is a JD Hy-Gard low viscosity (J20D) equivalent.

TOH
 

Have used Kerosene to thin out many other type of oils in the past. Just don't know if it would affect the common hyd pump or tranny that much?

I'm game since I would rather not change the existing oil too damn cold in the pole barn to work. Was thinking to replace about 1 gallon with kerosene???
 
i'm not telling you to do it mind you.. it's just funny that that is exactly what they used to tell people to do. the manual for my JD -B ( 1950 ) says to dilute oil with kero in the winter.

The JD also has hyds back there too.

If I was trying to thin it. and didn't want to loose all the oil, i think i'd drain out a gallon into a clean pail from the pipe plug as it's easy to drain, after cleanign the plug of course ), and then put in a gallon of atf fluid.
 
(quoted from post at 11:37:04 12/02/14) i'm not telling you to do it mind you.. it's just funny that that is exactly what they used to tell people to do. the manual for my JD -B ( 1950 ) says to dilute oil with kero in the winter.

The JD also has hyds back there too.

If I was trying to thin it. and didn't want to loose all the oil, i think i'd drain out a gallon into a clean pail from the pipe plug as it's easy to drain, after cleanign the plug of course ), and then put in a gallon of atf fluid.


Yes - and they told people to use kerosene to thin engine oil. That may have been acceptable advice in 1940 but we have far better choices today. Even a gallon of AW-32 would be better than kerosene.

ATF is roughly the same viscosity as JD-Hygard which is a modern low viscosity common sump hydraulic oil.

TOH
 
As I said, I wasn't telling him to do it, just stating it used to be fine.. I also see my phone auto corrected my utf to ATF, love that
 
Thanks fellas.
After doing a little checking around seems like the TSC Travelers PREMIUM UFT is where I want to go. Its rated as a 10w20 which is similar to the John Deere's J20D Low Viscosity Hy-Gard. Has a pour point rating of -44 degrees where as the Travlers Ford Hydraulic oil has a pour point rating at of degrees.

http://www.external_link.com/en/store/travellerreg%3B-universal-tractor-trans-hydraulic-fluid-5-gal#desc-tab
 
Thanks fellas.
After doing a little checking around seems like the TSC Travelers PREMIUM UFT is where I want to go. Its rated as a 10w20 which is similar to the John Deere's J20D Low Viscosity Hy-Gard. Has a pour point rating of -44 degrees where as the Travelers Ford Hydraulic oil has a pour point rating at of degrees.

Long story short I need to do something as my hydraulics are near useless at 15-20 degrees.

http://www.external_link.com/en/store/travellerreg%3B-universal-tractor-trans-hydraulic-fluid-5-gal#desc-tab
 
Thanks fellas.
After doing a little checking around seems like the TSC Travelers PREMIUM UFT is where I want to go. Its rated as a 10w20 which is similar to the John Deere's J20D Low Viscosity Hy-Gard. Has a pour point rating of -44 degrees where as the Travelers Ford Hydraulic oil has a pour point rating at of degrees.

Long story short I need to do something as my hydraulics are near useless at 15-20 degrees.

http://www.external_link.com/en/sto...-tractor-trans-hydraulic-fluid-5-gal#desc-tab
 
Thanks fellas.
After doing a little checking around seems like the TSC Travelers PREMIUM UFT is where I want to go. Its rated as a 10w20 which is similar to the John Deere's J20D Low Viscosity Hy-Gard. Has a pour point rating of -44 degrees where as the Travelers Ford Hydraulic oil has a pour point rating at of 0 degrees.

Long story short I need to do something as my hydraulics are near useless at 15-20 degrees and the JD Hy-Gard is much more expensive.
 
Hi Greywolf,

I noticed the slow flow to my vane pump a week ago too, not by pump sound because my pump is a little noisy already, but by my hydraulic filter gage. The needle was high in the green zone until it warmed up a little -- didn't take long.

I bought new fluid in the summer but never got a round to changing it and I should have. Here's what I bought two gallons of; It's made by viscosity Oils in Illinois. Tractor dealer on the big Island recommended it to me.

Cheers,
Terry

P.S.
Everything is frozen around here right now but when I shook this jug down in my now unheated shop to take this picture, it sloshed around real easy . . . NOT like molasses in January.

mvphoto13543.jpg


mvphoto13544.jpg
 

Thanks for the info. I also installed an #80 Mesh filter in my hydraulic system but did not have the filter housing tapped for a gauge. I bought the gauge now got to get around to drilling and tapping the housing. Figured that it will help me in cases like this.

I know that the pump is trying to suck that thick oil from the tractors belly like sucking oatmeal through a straw. I just don't want to rebuild the vane pump again.
 
(quoted from post at 13:57:37 12/02/14) Thanks fellas.
After doing a little checking around seems like the TSC Travelers PREMIUM UFT is where I want to go. Its rated as a 10w20 which is similar to the John Deere's J20D Low Viscosity Hy-Gard. Has a pour point rating of -44 degrees where as the Travelers Ford Hydraulic oil has a pour point rating at of 0 degrees.

Long story short I need to do something as my hydraulics are near useless at 15-20 degrees and the JD Hy-Gard is much more expensive.

Not exactly - here are the curves using the hydraulic oil referrence temperature of 40C (100F) as the minimum temperature and your current Ford hydraulic oil as a reference. [list:34a633c63a][*:34a633c63a]Traveler UTF and conventional Hy-Gard (J20C) are typical UTF's with a viscosity close to ISO 68 hydraulic oil. [*:34a633c63a]Hy-Gard low-vis (J20D) is closer to IS0 32. It also has a higher viscosity index than the other oils making it an even better performer at temperatures below freezing.[/list:u:34a633c63a] The Traveler Premium UTF oil is simply a low cost generic version of OEM branded and very expensive oils - e.g. JD Hy-Gard and CNH's Ambra 134D. If you really wanted to use a low-vis Hy-Gard type oil there are similar generic products that sell for about the same price as a conventional UTTF.

The differences shown in the graph are pretty clear and they only get larger the colder it gets. By the time you get to your 20F the Ford oil is looking really bad in comparison to either of the other two....

TOH

UTFvsJ20C.jpg
 
What's tsc calling their extra premium utf now renew? Or restore or something?. How does it compair?
 

So maybe I missed my meds today or I totally lost you.
Did I incorrectly assume when I said the Travlers premium UFT more closely resembles the hy-gard j20d and is what I want???

I see you grafted the travelers ford oil and not the travelers premium UFT. Both the travelers UFT and hi-gard j20d are spec'ed at 10w20 while the hy-gard j20c is 10w30.
 
(quoted from post at 18:57:19 12/02/14)
So maybe I missed my meds today or I totally lost you.
Did I incorrectly assume when I said the Travlers premium UFT more closely resembles the hy-gard j20d and is what I want???

I see you grafted the travelers ford oil and not the travelers premium UFT. Both the travelers UFT and hi-gard j20d are spec'ed at 10w20 while the hy-gard j20c is 10w30.

In the graph the Ford oil is the blue line, the Traveler's Premium UTF is the red line, and the Hygard low viscosity is the red line.

I don't trust SAE grade labels on products that are not graded by that standrad. I much prefer to use the the spec sheets to see theri actual viscosities. Traveler Premium UTF is NOT equivalent viscosity wise to JD Hy-Gard low- viscosity (J20D). Traveler Premium UTF and the regulat Hy-Gard (J20C) are equivalent.

Traveler Premium UTF has a kinematic viscosity of ~9.5 cSt @ 100C and a VI of ~130. The minimum allowable viscosity fro SAE 30 is 9.3 cSt so that corresponds to a "light" SAE xxW30 engine oil. It is also dead in teh middle of SAE 80 gear oil and corresponds to an "average" SAE 70W80 gear oil. The regular Hy-Gard (J20C) fluid is essentially the same thing.

The low-viscosity Hy-Gard has a kinematic viscosity of 7.1 cSt@100c and a viscosity index of 195!!! That puts it in the general range of a "light" 0W20 engine oil and is nearly identical to the viscosity and VI of Dexron III ATF.

(quoted from post at 18:29:06 12/02/14) What's tsc calling their extra premium utf now renew? Or restore or something?. How does it compair?
Based on the spec sheet nothing special about it. It has the same general physical properties as any other generic UTTF:

Physical Properties

Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt :59.89
Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt: 9.32
Viscosity Index : 136
Pour Point: -39°C

TOH
 

Thanks for the clarification.
I see where I miss-read the graph legend. I automatically assumed the blue line was J20C hy-gard only and not also referencing the Travlers UFT.

I really want to stick to something comparable to the hy-gard lo viscosity j20d type fluid since I need it as thin as I can get it for this weather.
 
(quoted from post at 23:47:09 12/02/14)
Thanks for the clarification.
I see where I miss-read the graph legend. I automatically assumed the blue line was J20C hy-gard only and not also referencing the Travlers UFT.

I really want to stick to something comparable to the hy-gard lo viscosity j20d type fluid since I need it as thin as I can get it for this weather.

Kendall HyKen 052 and 76 Lubricants THF are both available in formulations equivalent to HyGard low-vis (J20D). Here is an online source for both. The 76 fluid is $50 for a 5 gallon pail but by the time you add shipping it probably isn't much less than HyGard Lo-Vis from a local JD dealer. Citgo also makes their TransGard UTF in a J20D formulation. Maybe you can find one of them locally.

Petroleum Service Company

TOH
 

TOH,

Could I prevail upon you to tell me the pour point and viscosity of the Ambra Mastertran I bought?

. . . that is if you aren't still mad at me for not removing my hydraulic filter system. :)

Thanks,
T
 

We are all on the same side of the fence.

This how I picture TOH since he is chock full of great info including graphs stats and what have you.


mvphoto13575.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 13:36:26 12/03/14)
TOH,

Could I prevail upon you to tell me the pour point and viscosity of the Ambra Mastertran I bought?

. . . that is if you aren't still mad at me for not removing my hydraulic filter system. :)

Thanks,
T

Unfortunately New Holland doesn't believe in publishing Product Data Sheets for any of their lubricants. :evil:

The MSDS for their products are online but the MasterTran MSDS doesn't provide any viscosity information. It does say the pour point is -40C.

The physical property data doesn't seem to be a huge secret however. The Ambra family of lubricants are made to New Holland specification by a blending company called Viscosity Oil. I contacted the Technical Assistance desk at Viscosity Oil several years ago and they provided viscosity data for the Ambra Multi-G 134 (aka Ford M2C-134D). You could sending them an email asking for the viscosity (@40C and @100C) as well as the viscosiyty index. If you can get the first two the VI can be calculated.

[u:094520d77e]Viscosity Oil Contact Page[/u:094520d77e]

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 13:47:44 12/03/14)
We are all on the same side of the fence.

This how I picture TOH since he is chock full of great info including graphs stats and what have you.

Not exactly - here is a Selfie :lol:

TOH

Wizard2.jpg
 

TOH,
Got a very prompt reply from Viscosity:

Terry:
Thanks for your inquiry. The typical values are as follows:

Viscosity @40C:  60 cst
Viscosity @100C: 9.3 cst
Viscosity Index:  137

Brian

Brian M. Lenz
Development Chemist
HSE Coordinator

VISCOSITY OIL COMPANY
600 Joliet Road, Suite H, Willowbrook, Illinois, 60527, USA
T: +1 (630)850-4000 (GL)
F: +1 (630)850-4023
<http://www.pli-petronas.com/>www.pli-petronas.com

Please note my e-mail address is now <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] .
 
(quoted from post at 17:00:16 12/03/14)
TOH,
Got a very prompt reply from Viscosity:

Terry:
Thanks for your inquiry. The typical values are as follows:

Viscosity @40C:  60 cst
Viscosity @100C: 9.3 cst
Viscosity Index:  137

Nearly identical to the answer I got for Ambra Multi-G:

[i:5e1c53d5fc]Daniel,

Viscosity is 60 cSt @ 40C and 9.4 cSt @ 100C, with a viscosity index of 136.[/i:5e1c53d5fc]

TOH
 
Thanks, but would you dumb it down for me?
How do I translate the VI number into the equivalent in an oil grade?

Is the higher the VI Index number, the lighter the grade?

Viscosity is 60 cSt @ 40C and 9.4 cSt @ 100C
I think I understand that if an oil grade is 10W30 for example, then the 60cSt and the 9.4 cSt denote the two performance factors; i.e., the 10W and the 30. (?)

T
 
(quoted from post at 18:18:43 12/03/14)
Thanks, but would you dumb it down for me?
How do I translate the VI number into the equivalent in an oil grade?

Is the higher the VI number, the lighter the grade?

T

First off the SAE viscosity grading system only applies to engine and gear oils. :Special purpose" oils like ATF and UTF do not qualify for an "official" SAE viscosity grade for reasons we will get to in a bit. It would be far better if people understood the real scientific measures of viscosity but they don't so we use SAE engine oil grades which everybody is familiar with and thinks they understand. Unfortunately most don't because the system is way too complicated ;-) So here we go:

The VI number is not used in determining the grade. It is an indicator of how quickly or slowly an oil changes viscosity with temperature. A value of around 100 is typical for a conventional mono-grade oil. The higher the number the less rapidly the oil thins when heated or thickens when chilled. a modern synthetic multi-grade will have a VI around 130.

The SAE "hot" grade number is determined by measuring the viscosity at 100C. The measurement is real simple - the heated oil is poured through a capillary tube and the time it takes to pass through the tube determines the viscosity which is measured in centistokes (cSt). There is a table (SAE J300) that defines the viscosity ranges defined for the various grades. For example SAE 30 is any viscosity from 9.3 cSt up to but not including 12.3 cSt. Click here to see the full table:

[u:b24e9c0436]SAE J300[/u:b24e9c0436]

In addition to that simple kinematic viscosity there is a second high temperature/high shear viscosity requiremrnt for each hot grade. That property is much harder to measure and requires very specialized equipment. That requirement is also peculiar to the operating environment inside an engine which is why the SAE 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 grades ONLY apply to engine oils.

That was the hot grades. There are also a set of cold grades - 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W, and 25W. For those grades the oil is chilled to very low temperatures (-10C to -40C) and tested to determine the pumping and cold cranking viscosities at those very low temperatures. Again very specialized test apparatus and a performance requirement that is peculiar to an engine.

When an oil passes both a hot and a cold test (an not all oils have a high enough viscosity index to do that) it is given a multi-grade label - e.g. SAE 10W30 passes both the SAE 30 hot test AND the SAE 10W cold test. The UTF data sheets almost always provide their kinematic viscosity at 100C and some provide the cold Brookfield pumping viscosity. Those numbers provide a rough approximation of what the grade number would be if the oil were an engine oil ;-)

Simple enough?

TOH
 
I did come to understand what 10W30 meant, way back in the mid seventies when I studied up on it a bit, but certainly not to the extent that you did or to the extent that you retained it all.

I knew that the W belonged to the 10 and was the measure of that oils flow at 0 degrees F and that the end number 30 was the measure through those drip tubes at what was standardized as engine oil operating temp -- 210 F as I recall.

Remember I went on about that when I first joined this forum and you chastised me on a couple of loose points about viscosity index improvers that thicken with heat? :)

But thanks much for all the fine points that didn't understand about the VI index and the great synopsis.

Terry
 
Hokie, don't mean to beat a dead horse but I don't have any JD dealers near me but many NAPA dealers.
Came across their SYNGARD J20D which seems to me to be identical to the JD J20D spec oil.

Enclosed is the spec's.

Pour point is -53° F
What do you think?

mvphoto13600.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 15:55:59 12/04/14) Hokie, don't mean to beat a dead horse but I don't have any JD dealers near me but many NAPA dealers.
Came across their SYNGARD J20D which seems to me to be identical to the JD J20D spec oil.

Enclosed is the spec's.

Pour point is -53° F
What do you think?

I think those physical properties are nearly identical to JD HyGard lo-viscosity. But I cannot find anything called SynGard UTF or THF on either the NAPA or the Valvoline websites. All I can find is SynGard ATF which would have those physical properties as would Dexron III and a lot of other ATF's. The additive package in an ATF will be significantly different from the additive package in a UTF. Where did that image come from? If it is a picture of the back of the container do you have a picture of the front label???

TOH
 
(reply to post at 17:35:07 12/04/14)

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Hydraulic-Fluid-55-GAL-J20D-Synthetic-5W-20/_/R-FHQ592894_0452185296

Search the NAPA site for J20D with no vehicle specified.
 
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Hydraulic-Fluid-55-GAL-J20D-Synthetic-5W-20/_/R-FHQ592894_0452185296

Search the NAPA site for J20D with no vehicle specified.[/quote]

Physically a generic for J20D. Despite what the PDS says it is not an equivalent fto M2C-134x which has a higher viscosity specification - same with J20C and most generic UTF's (9.3 cSt@100C). You should be good to go.

I was surprised to see Martin Lubricants also included the additive package in their PDS - something I wish other blenders would do. To get that info you usually have to pop for $30 and sent a sample off for a virgin oil analysis :roll:

According to their PDS the SynGard contains 1140 PPM phosphorous, 1340 PPM zinc, and 2800 PPM sulfur. In those proportions they are almost surely using ZDDP as the AW additive. That is unusual for a final drive gear lube which typically uses sulfur-phosphorous as the AW additive - often in combination with boron (potassium-borate) which boosts their performance. Some comparisons:

Traveller UTF contains 300 PPM phosphorous, 50 PPM boron, and virtually no zinc. The VOA didn't report sulfur.

A typical gear oil contains ~12000 PPM sulfur, ~1600 PPM phosphorous,~300 PPM boron, and no zinc

It would be interesting to see some comparative wear tests for the three different packages ;-)

TOH
 

Dan thanks for the quick response. With that said I want to go and pick up a 5 gallon pail tomorrow.
Wish I could help you out with the wear tests but I'm sure I wouldn't know where to begin.
 
Oil dilution

Back when I was in the Air Force in the mid
fifties we used oil dilution in the great
radial engines on the era so that they could be
started on cold mornings.

This was accomplished by using a switch on the
aircrafts flight engineer’s panel. The flight
engineer would hold the oil dilution switch on
for a predetermined time so that aviation
gasoline could be injected directly into the
running radial engine crankcase. These engines
were of the dry sump type and did not hold
reserve oil in the crankcase but rather in a 80
gallon tank that was vented to the atmosphere.

By injecting gasoline into the crankcase as the
engine was being shut down the residual oil in
the crankcase was diluted to a very thin
consistency.

If the engine was not shut down in anticipation
of a cold morning start then the engine starter
and all the power units on the base could not
start these huge engines. Here we are talking
anywhere from 3350 cubic inches on one engine
to 4360 cubic inches on one engine.

Dilute the engine when shut down start the next
cold morning!

The story goes according to some of the old WW2
men that were still in the AF at this time that
a mechanic over in England who was having a
heck of time starting the engines on his
squadrons planes in the cold damp mornings came
up with the idea to pour gasoline into the
crankcase after the engine was shut down and
then restart and run for a couple of minutes to
mix the oil and gasoline. The CO noticed that
his planes had no problem at all being started
in the morning so he called the Sgt. In and
asked him what his secret procedure was.

When the Sgt told his what he had been doing
the CO hit the ceiling and had the Sgt busted.
After all he told him, gasoline is very
combustible! The Sgt told him it was while in
the gas tank too. What was he going to do about
that? No answer to that question!

A couple of months later when the weather
really got cold and nothing could be got up and
going unless heaters were used all night on the
engines he called the private back in and re-
instated his rank with back pay and had him go
out and instruct all the mechanics on the base
to begin his oil dilution process when a cold
morning was in the forecast.

He was promoted and given a citation after the
invasion of Normandy.

This is a true story.

Zane
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top