How Does Oil Pump stay primed

DavidBond

New User
1951, 6V, side....
Ok that's done. Now to my problem. Sometimes I have no OP at start up for about thirty seconds. I know it is not the gauge because when OP come up motor quiets down. This is getting progressively worst. Use to only happen sometimes, and length of time to pressure is getting longer. Now happens at almost every startup.
Have looked at the archives. Could a cracked or loose oil intake pipe in oil pan cause this. Or could it be pressure relief valve or is the pump gears going bad. The motor has good OP when running 35psi.
 
David,Its probably a cracked or loose pick up tube.Drain your oil out and reach up there and see if you can shake the pickup bell above the drain plug.
 
(quoted from post at 20:08:22 11/05/14) 1951, 6V, side....
Ok that's done. Now to my problem. Sometimes I have no OP at start up for about thirty seconds. I know it is not the gauge because when OP come up motor quiets down. This is getting progressively worst. Use to only happen sometimes, and length of time to pressure is getting longer. Now happens at almost every startup.
Have looked at the archives. Could a cracked or loose oil intake pipe in oil pan cause this. Or could it be pressure relief valve or is the pump gears going bad. The motor has good OP when running 35psi.

N-series oil pump prime:

The pump pulls oil from the sump by creating a vacuum in the intake tube. At startup residual oil laying in the bottom of the oil pump provides an oil film that helps seal the tips of the gears and helps create that vacuum. When pump clearances get overly wide the pump develops low or insufficient vacuum causing a delay in oil delivery. If the loss of vacuum is too great the pump won't prime at all.

Your problem is only going to get worse and every time you start that engine with no/slow oil delivery the bearings take a hit. Possible causes are a leak in the intake or worn gears and/or housing.

TOH
 
Den N Ms,

This Spring when I changed oil on the Jubilee, I reached up with a finger and got some wiggle out of the TUBE but I don't think that the BELL moved. This is the first time I've heard anyone make a distinction between the tube and the bell.

I didn't really get any definitive answers at that time so I concluded I should drop the pan and check the pump cap screws for tight.

Just got a call today about my back ordered pan gasket that will be here tomorrow.

My oil pressure is never below 40 and close to 50 at higher RPMs. Once about three weeks ago it mysteriously surged up to 60+ but only that one time and that fluctuation had me worried.

Is there anything you can tell me? Is NO movement in the BELL an indicator that the pump cover plate is still on tight, even though the tube within the BELL had some play?

I've never had a 134 pan off so I'm in the dark.

Thanks,
Terry
mvphoto12700.jpg
 

Noise don't lie you have a issue its gonna get worst...

Remove the oil plug and check for vacuum at the center of the oil pick up tube while cranking the engine if you don't have it suspect a pick up tube issue are the pump... If you have vacuum suspect issues above the oil pump...

Either way if you drop the pan check ALL OF THE BEARINGS it only takes 1/2 of a BRG shell to cause pressure issues above the pump on start up... Any issue above the pump will not affect the pumps ability to suck ( Pull a vacuum) while cranking the engine with the starter...

This was covered in the GURU study manual...
 
as TOH, Hobo and the others said. get this looked at immediately. it won't heal.. and will only cost mor ethe longer it goes on.
 
(quoted from post at 22:16:05 11/07/14)
Who are you talking to and what engine is this in your pictures?

Thanks,
Terry
ooks to me like he came over, crawled under your tractor, took pan off & snapped a picture or two. Recognize your jube? :wink:
 

Well thank you J, master of all things tractor!

As I mentioned, 'till people wonder, "Will he ever shut up?"
I've never had a Ford tractor pan off. :D

Fel-Pro gasket finally arrived yesterday.

T
 
hey Terry, my reply was for you, engine is a 134 Jubilee about 5 yrs ago when I had mine tore down. I used to pull the pan on my Fords about every 2 years if using them a lot, check everything and remove the sludge from the bottom of the pan which does accumulate. It keeps the oil and filter cleaner longer and is not a bad job, just need a new gasket.
This engine had about 300 hours on it at the time.
 

Thanks for the reply.
I've had dozens of pans off and totally rebuilt about 15 engines so I'm O.K. for most procedures.

A few questions:

Is the "bell" as you called it, bolted to the bearing cap?

Does the pickup tube just run through a hole in the bell or is the pipe fixed (or supposed to be fixed) to the bell?

Is there a joint in the pickup tube where it goes through the bell?

The reason I ask is because, through the plug hole, my pickup tube wiggled but the bell was immovable. If the pipe is one piece all the way to the pump, then the pipe is definitely loose in the pump mounting flange or the flange is hanging a little from the pump face.

Thanks,
Terry
 
Hopefully your post didn't get too side tracked.

"Could a cracked or loose oil intake pipe in oil pan cause this."
Yes. That would be my first guess as to the cause.

"Or could it be pressure relief valve"
I don't think so. It is a relief for over pressure.

"pump gears going bad."
Probably not as likely since you said it has good pressure
once it is running, but certainly still possible.

Please let us know what you find. It will help us all.
 
[size=18:17d7b91530]Update[/size:17d7b91530], took off oil pan today and found that the intake pipe was loose in the oil pump. What is being use to reattach it to the pump body. Are people brazing it on with brass or silver solder. I can do both.

Also since I am so close to the leaking main seals. I want to replace those. Having read a lot about them and the difficulty of the upper one, would I just be better off just pulling the motor and putting it on my stand.
 
(quoted from post at 06:38:27 11/25/14) [size=18:f8a0b3efb9]Update[/size:f8a0b3efb9], took off oil pan today and found that the intake pipe was loose in the oil pump. What is being use to reattach it to the pump body. Are people brazing it on with brass or silver solder. I can do both.

Also since I am so close to the leaking main seals. I want to replace those. Having read a lot about them and the difficulty of the upper one, would I just be better off just pulling the motor and putting it on my stand.

All I have ever fudged with were soldered with lead :cry: Get it apart clean it and go with silver...
 

David,

I'm still trying to find out if the pickup tube is jointed where it goes through the bell, or is the tube supposed to be one piece from pump to sump?

The reason I need to know is that my tube wiggled but the BELL was tight, when I changed oil this summer.

I'm betting that my pump mount plate is tight but that the tube is loose where it goes through the bell.

The only other possibility is that the BELL is bolted to the bearing cap and my tube is loose where it passes through the Bell AND at the pump.

Please tell me if the Bell is or isn't bolted to the bearing cap
and if the part of the tube from bell to sump is a separate "section" of intake pipe.

Maybe my Bell DID wiggle and I'm having a senior moment but I don't think so, because I would have dropped the pan right then and there if both tube AND Bell wiggle.
My oil pressure is always a healthy 40-50, hence the quandary.

Thanks,
Terry
 
Maybe this will help. This is an NAA oil pickup tube.
Bell is fastened solid to the tube, not fastened to anything else.
David's tractor is an 8N.

mvphoto13358.jpg


mvphoto13359.jpg
 

Thanks Royse.

So while the Bell is solidly soldered or whatever to the tube, it may be that the final 4" or so of tube within the Bell, may be loose, cracked, up in the bell where it comes through the Bell, or else there is a pickup tube joint on the in-side of the bell for the final section.

In other words, before factory soldering, the pickup tube would actually be comprised of two sections.

That doesn't seem that logical but how else would you explain a tight bell and yet a tube that wiggles within the Bell.

T
 
You're welcome.
I didn't try to take it apart to see if the tube was two pieces.
It came out of the Jube I bought with the bad knock.
 
Oh that Jube.
Turned out to be a rod and its journal didn't it?
Does that old Jube get a transplant or get a newly turned crank,
or it it a parts tractor?

I wonder if -- assuming for the moment that there is a short separate before assembly, section of pickup tube -- up inside the Bell . . . wonder if where that short piece connects it is one of those rolled over edge-type joints.

in which case mine could be hanging by a weak half of it's full connection OR on the bright side . . . cause no Jube owner said otherwise here in Tractorland, maybe there is [b:53d56441e4]always[/b:53d56441e4] freeplay in that pipe connection inside the Bell . . . getting a little looser over time. (?)

Because the long tube is firmly welded to the Bell, the oil pressure gage wouldn't necessarily indicate a problem due to induced air.

Do you know how far up the bell the oil sits at startup?
Is there a stain on yours, like a tideline?

P.S. Just looked . . . I think the line is clear in one of your
photos! Yay!

P.P.S. There could be an inch of the pipe entering the Bell, on the inside, like down to where that oil line is in your photo . . . and THEN an additional short section connects and "hangs" down from there; that would be the section with the freeplay.

Another mystery to solve.
Wish I had shone a bright light up in there.

Thanks Watson,
T
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top