Bruce is 110% Correct

Ref the broke elbow and my post on CIT you are 110% correct. As you yourself have posted from the "land of almost right" to you it was not the country itself but the company that moved the jobs there. It is now the land of not even close, cut a few shorter bolts an washers and put that money in corp Americas pocket. To you and I it was obvious and a given it is corporate greed. When Sam Walton died WM dropped their slogan about "Bring it home to the USA"-and went into the corp greed mode and thats why they and others are now in trouble real trouble, WM was PART of the catalyst that started this cancer. There are fewer $s because the jobs that made American goods are gone and with that so went sales. There are TONs of jobs where I live, all part time and no benefits just a small pay checks. The greed only produces short term benefits and to only a few ,everyone else pays. Child labor, slavery, illegal aliens, even the mass European migration to America was for one thing cheap labor and more money for the few and all of these things took a bite out of America, very little was a long term benefit. The illegal immigration is the Bale of straw that will break the American camel's back and way of life forever and it serves only one purpose cheap labor. Thanks for pointing out what I failed to mention. So Ill shut up jump off my soap box and pass the ammo. LB Master of the Obvious.

(quoted from post at 15:14:40 10/26/14) Ref the broke elbow and my post on CIT you are 110% correct. As you yourself have posted from the "land of almost right" to you it was not the country itself but the company that moved the jobs there. It is now the land of not even close, cut a few shorter bolts an washers and put that money in corp Americas pocket. To you and I it was obvious and a given it is corporate greed. When Sam Walton died WM dropped their slogan about "Bring it home to the USA"-and went into the corp greed mode and thats why they and others are now in trouble real trouble, WM was PART of the catalyst that started this cancer. There are fewer $s because the jobs that made American goods are gone and with that so went sales. There are TONs of jobs where I live, all part time and no benefits just a small pay checks. The greed only produces short term benefits and to only a few ,everyone else pays. Child labor, slavery, illegal aliens, even the mass European migration to America was for one thing cheap labor and more money for the few and all of these things took a bite out of America, very little was a long term benefit. The illegal immigration is the Bale of straw that will break the American camel's back and way of life forever and it serves only one purpose cheap labor. Thanks for pointing out what I failed to mention. So Ill shut up jump off my soap box and pass the ammo. LB Master of the Obvious.

Click to expand...

Actually you, IMO are wrong. One company decided to import a certain product to undercut other companies. Meanwhile the EPA and OSHA has caused the cost of manufacturing in the US to go up. Other companies to compete had to move stuff offshore too. A high school friend became a mechanical engineer. A company he worked for prided itself on building American made products with every part possible made in the US. A valve they made in house was moved off shore because some of the metals used had trace amounts of lead in them to reduce corrosion. Back in the 90's the EPA declared that those metals were now hazardous materials. That raised the cost of making that valve in the US to the point for the company to stay competitive with other companies making a similar end product to high. They had to move that off shore.

The really big problem here is the consumer. Everyone here wants cheap products. In part because they are trying to stretch their money. The other part is they want everything and they want it right now. How many here shop WM even though they can afford to shop elsewhere? Why? To save a buck. Even though they know they are not getting the best products for their money. That's a choice we each have to make. I'm not going to condemn someone for where they shop at. I don't shop Wal Mart but that's just me. You want to see American products? Don't by foreign made stuff. Enough people demand made in USA products and they will move manufacturing back here.

Rick

(quoted from post at 21:42:20 10/26/14)

(quoted from post at 15:14:40 10/26/14) Ref the broke elbow and my post on CIT you are 110% correct. As you yourself have posted from the "land of almost right" to you it was not the country itself but the company that moved the jobs there. It is now the land of not even close, cut a few shorter bolts an washers and put that money in corp Americas pocket. To you and I it was obvious and a given it is corporate greed. When Sam Walton died WM dropped their slogan about "Bring it home to the USA"-and went into the corp greed mode and thats why they and others are now in trouble real trouble, WM was PART of the catalyst that started this cancer. There are fewer $s because the jobs that made American goods are gone and with that so went sales. There are TONs of jobs where I live, all part time and no benefits just a small pay checks. The greed only produces short term benefits and to only a few ,everyone else pays. Child labor, slavery, illegal aliens, even the mass European migration to America was for one thing cheap labor and more money for the few and all of these things took a bite out of America, very little was a long term benefit. The illegal immigration is the Bale of straw that will break the American camel's back and way of life forever and it serves only one purpose cheap labor. Thanks for pointing out what I failed to mention. So Ill shut up jump off my soap box and pass the ammo. LB Master of the Obvious.

Click to expand...

Actually you, IMO are wrong. One company decided to import a certain product to undercut other companies. Meanwhile the EPA and OSHA has caused the cost of manufacturing in the US to go up. Other companies to compete had to move stuff offshore too. A high school friend became a mechanical engineer. A company he worked for prided itself on building American made products with every part possible made in the US. A valve they made in house was moved off shore because some of the metals used had trace amounts of lead in them to reduce corrosion. Back in the 90's the EPA declared that those metals were now hazardous materials. That raised the cost of making that valve in the US to the point for the company to stay competitive with other companies making a similar end product to high. They had to move that off shore.

The really big problem here is the consumer. Everyone here wants cheap products. In part because they are trying to stretch their money. The other part is they want everything and they want it right now. How many here shop WM even though they can afford to shop elsewhere? Why? To save a buck. Even though they know they are not getting the best products for their money. That's a choice we each have to make. I'm not going to condemn someone for where they shop at. I don't shop Wal Mart but that's just me. You want to see American products? Don't by foreign made stuff. Enough people demand made in USA products and they will move manufacturing back here.

Rick

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I'm not convinced that the entire problem lies there either.
I have a relative that makes over $20/hour to put lug nuts
on a Chevy when it comes down the assembly line.
Most of the car, including the lug nuts are made off shore.
A monkey could do his job, but he makes a decent wage.
Wonder why?

Getting a little long in the thread, always referring to making a profit as greed. How about wanting a paycheck for your labor? Man what greed! A raise? Holy cow....the greed!

(quoted from post at 19:01:06 10/26/14)

(quoted from post at 21:42:20 10/26/14)

(quoted from post at 15:14:40 10/26/14) Ref the broke elbow and my post on CIT you are 110% correct. As you yourself have posted from the "land of almost right" to you it was not the country itself but the company that moved the jobs there. It is now the land of not even close, cut a few shorter bolts an washers and put that money in corp Americas pocket. To you and I it was obvious and a given it is corporate greed. When Sam Walton died WM dropped their slogan about "Bring it home to the USA"-and went into the corp greed mode and thats why they and others are now in trouble real trouble, WM was PART of the catalyst that started this cancer. There are fewer $s because the jobs that made American goods are gone and with that so went sales. There are TONs of jobs where I live, all part time and no benefits just a small pay checks. The greed only produces short term benefits and to only a few ,everyone else pays. Child labor, slavery, illegal aliens, even the mass European migration to America was for one thing cheap labor and more money for the few and all of these things took a bite out of America, very little was a long term benefit. The illegal immigration is the Bale of straw that will break the American camel's back and way of life forever and it serves only one purpose cheap labor. Thanks for pointing out what I failed to mention. So Ill shut up jump off my soap box and pass the ammo. LB Master of the Obvious.

Click to expand...

Actually you, IMO are wrong. One company decided to import a certain product to undercut other companies. Meanwhile the EPA and OSHA has caused the cost of manufacturing in the US to go up. Other companies to compete had to move stuff offshore too. A high school friend became a mechanical engineer. A company he worked for prided itself on building American made products with every part possible made in the US. A valve they made in house was moved off shore because some of the metals used had trace amounts of lead in them to reduce corrosion. Back in the 90's the EPA declared that those metals were now hazardous materials. That raised the cost of making that valve in the US to the point for the company to stay competitive with other companies making a similar end product to high. They had to move that off shore.

The really big problem here is the consumer. Everyone here wants cheap products. In part because they are trying to stretch their money. The other part is they want everything and they want it right now. How many here shop WM even though they can afford to shop elsewhere? Why? To save a buck. Even though they know they are not getting the best products for their money. That's a choice we each have to make. I'm not going to condemn someone for where they shop at. I don't shop Wal Mart but that's just me. You want to see American products? Don't by foreign made stuff. Enough people demand made in USA products and they will move manufacturing back here.

Rick

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that the entire problem lies there either.
I have a relative that makes over $20/hour to put lug nuts
on a Chevy when it comes down the assembly line.
Most of the car, including the lug nuts are made off shore.
A monkey could do his job, but he makes a decent wage.
Wonder why?

Click to expand...

OH, I agree that some jobs pay more for work than they should which helps drive up the cost. Most manufactures though are non union and pay less than 20 an hour. I read someplace not too long ago that 30 some % of the cost of a new car is wages to current employees. Another just over 30% is retirement pay outs to retirees. The stated total was about 67% of the cost goes to current employee and retirees. The rest goes to materials and plant expenses and profit. I know a kid who got hired by CaseIH in Fargo. He started about 5 years ago at 18 an hour counting welds for quality control. So the only job skill required is counting.

I did state that there are 2 problems. One being the company having to pay extra out to keep the EPA and OSHA happy. That cost added to the operating cost is part of what drives jobs overseas. The company itself has to be able to turn a profit to stay in business. If a company fails then all of it's employees are on the street looking for work. If I can import something at half the cost you can produce it here then you cannot compete and will either have to outsource or go broke.

Rick

(quoted from post at 00:19:21 10/27/14)

(quoted from post at 19:01:06 10/26/14)

(quoted from post at 21:42:20 10/26/14)

(quoted from post at 15:14:40 10/26/14) Ref the broke elbow and my post on CIT you are 110% correct. As you yourself have posted from the "land of almost right" to you it was not the country itself but the company that moved the jobs there. It is now the land of not even close, cut a few shorter bolts an washers and put that money in corp Americas pocket. To you and I it was obvious and a given it is corporate greed. When Sam Walton died WM dropped their slogan about "Bring it home to the USA"-and went into the corp greed mode and thats why they and others are now in trouble real trouble, WM was PART of the catalyst that started this cancer. There are fewer $s because the jobs that made American goods are gone and with that so went sales. There are TONs of jobs where I live, all part time and no benefits just a small pay checks. The greed only produces short term benefits and to only a few ,everyone else pays. Child labor, slavery, illegal aliens, even the mass European migration to America was for one thing cheap labor and more money for the few and all of these things took a bite out of America, very little was a long term benefit. The illegal immigration is the Bale of straw that will break the American camel's back and way of life forever and it serves only one purpose cheap labor. Thanks for pointing out what I failed to mention. So Ill shut up jump off my soap box and pass the ammo. LB Master of the Obvious.

Click to expand...

Actually you, IMO are wrong. One company decided to import a certain product to undercut other companies. Meanwhile the EPA and OSHA has caused the cost of manufacturing in the US to go up. Other companies to compete had to move stuff offshore too. A high school friend became a mechanical engineer. A company he worked for prided itself on building American made products with every part possible made in the US. A valve they made in house was moved off shore because some of the metals used had trace amounts of lead in them to reduce corrosion. Back in the 90's the EPA declared that those metals were now hazardous materials. That raised the cost of making that valve in the US to the point for the company to stay competitive with other companies making a similar end product to high. They had to move that off shore.

The really big problem here is the consumer. Everyone here wants cheap products. In part because they are trying to stretch their money. The other part is they want everything and they want it right now. How many here shop WM even though they can afford to shop elsewhere? Why? To save a buck. Even though they know they are not getting the best products for their money. That's a choice we each have to make. I'm not going to condemn someone for where they shop at. I don't shop Wal Mart but that's just me. You want to see American products? Don't by foreign made stuff. Enough people demand made in USA products and they will move manufacturing back here.

Rick

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that the entire problem lies there either.
I have a relative that makes over $20/hour to put lug nuts
on a Chevy when it comes down the assembly line.
Most of the car, including the lug nuts are made off shore.
A monkey could do his job, but he makes a decent wage.
Wonder why?

Click to expand...

OH, I agree that some jobs pay more for work than they should which helps drive up the cost. Most manufactures though are non union and pay less than 20 an hour. I read someplace not too long ago that 30 some % of the cost of a new car is wages to current employees. Another just over 30% is retirement pay outs to retirees. The stated total was about 67% of the cost goes to current employee and retirees. The rest goes to materials and plant expenses and profit. I know a kid who got hired by CaseIH in Fargo. He started about 5 years ago at 18 an hour counting welds for quality control. So the only job skill required is counting.

I did state that there are 2 problems. One being the company having to pay extra out to keep the EPA and OSHA happy. That cost added to the operating cost is part of what drives jobs overseas. The company itself has to be able to turn a profit to stay in business. If a company fails then all of it's employees are on the street looking for work. If I can import something at half the cost you can produce it here then you cannot compete and will either have to outsource or go broke.

Rick

Click to expand...

pparently we don't need American businesses anyway: "She went on to state that businesses and corporations are not the job creators of America. “Don’t let anybody tell you that it’s corporations and businesses that create jobs,” the former Secretary of State said."

Royse I always value your opinion $20 hr may
seem like a lot,but what is his net pay and
does he get health ins. own his home. lots of
other variables. You cant buy much house or car
with what his net pay is. In 1973 I made $4.87
union scale an hr my F-250 could be filled for
$5.00 5.50 if bone dry. So if I made enough to
fill my 20 gal tank for aprox an hrs pay it
would now take at $20 an hr over 3hs to fill it
at $3.00 gal. The reason a monkey could NOT do
your relatives job is monkeys are not allow in
the UAW-LOL. The reason the nuts are made off
shore is because GM is the corp greed that puts
the American that use to make them out and they
save 2 or 3 cents a nut. The average wage in
china is 25 to 42 cent an hour, india is less.
And remember you and I Bailed GM out, and you
can bet a lot of it was turned into corp golden
parachutes. GM corp also held out on their
defective ign switches for almost 10 years.
That switch was a production of off shore and
killed and injured people and GM corp hid it
even though they knew about the deaths that
their defect caused Always follow the $
LB Master of the obvious

Well, at the risk of lowering my 110% grade........

The issue isn't the EPA or OSHA. If it were, then explain why the European Union is just as and in many cases more competitive than US businesses. Same w/ Japan.

Think regs are bad here? Well, about 85% of Monsanto's products can NOT be sold in the European Union. Example: my DIL has relatives in Germany; when she visits, she stocks up on make up. Because the very same products in the very same packages made by the very same companies do not contain the chemicals in Europe that they contain in the US.

(historical fact: the US Pure Food & Drup Act, circa 1910, came about because Europe refused to import our tainted meat)

Simply put, regs aren't the problem.

Unions? Not hardly. We were very competitive during the peak of union power (the 50's)

The problem?

Well, like any other mega-issue, it's hard to pin it on ONE cause, but we can come close.

The problem is inherent in our capitalistic economic system. (and I do NOT advocate the alternatives). As such, any regulation is seen as harmful. We have, for the most part, learned to live w/ controls on Wall Street.......AFTER such calamities as the Great Depression & the most recent mortgage meltdown. But there will always be someone out there to game the system. That's issue #1.

Issue #2 is the simple fact that we have lost site of adding value to a product, good or service to benefit the consumer, and have instead switched our focus to adding shareholder value.

Enough of this.....I need to go play on a tractor.

Being right or wrong has nothing to do with where it is made . The Chinese will make you a fighter jet if you want to pay for it .

(quoted from post at 10:46:34 10/27/14) Being right or wrong has nothing to do with where it is made . The Chinese will make you a fighter jet if you want to pay for it .

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es! What are the buyers specifications & requirements?

They will also sell you human organs, they have a
great donor program. You put in your order they
get a inmate and presto ongan on its way. If you
want a Fight its money up front as we owe them
Trillions. They loaned us the money for Afgan.
and Iraq, and much much more. LB Master of the
obvious.

Here is a different view point of what happened to jobs, especially the high paying union jobs in the US.

I didn't write this article. Read it and you decide.
decline of union jobs in US

Bruce, yes in part you are correct. It's many things. But government regulation, taxes, wages and all must be covered plus a profit for a company to stay in business. IH folded even thought they were making a profit. Their last full year of production they out sold Deer and AC by more than double. Deer was operating on a 5% margin, IH on 2. When they had to start borrowing money to pay for materials at 1980's interest rates they were done.

So wages, materials, utilities and all have to be paid for plus the company has to make enough to pay for stuff up front and upgrade lines, engineer new products, maintain buildings and everything else to stay open. When a competitor starts to under cut them with an imported product they are in trouble. They have either lower the cost of production or outsource themselves to be competitive. That is unless the consumer is willing to pay more for a better product. We see it here all the time. People looking for a deal on Ebay for parts. If they would support the tractor through now NH more of those parts would be available from NH. Granted the cost would be higher but just maybe the parts would be of better quality.

Now some things are made here that are somewhat surprising. The axle pivot pin that I ordered for one of my 8N's was back ordered so I contacted Tisco. Turns out the pins are made right here in MN.

Rick

Until he shows us how he held the elbow I will assume it is installer error... I will give him benefit of the doubt because I have seen were china fudges on the correct metal recipe ... Its just to brittle by the looks of it....

I don't see how you can put 100% of the blame on the retailer if I read that comment correctly... Not everyone has a Sugar-daddy...

(quoted from post at 17:59:45 10/27/14)
Until he shows us how he held the elbow I will assume it is installer error... I will give him benefit of the doubt because I have seen were china fudges on the correct metal recipe ... Its just to brittle by the looks of it....

I don't see how you can put 100% of the blame on the retailer if I read that comment correctly... Not everyone has a Sugar-daddy...

Click to expand...

I'm not blaming the retailer or even a company that winds up importing items to sell to the retailer. They are trying to give the customer what they want. Low priced products. I place the blame squarely on the consumer. I know that if I owned a business and the only way I could compete and stay in business I'd outsource too. I don't think many here would willingly fail.

Rick

If they build you a jet, good luck. I was a senior engineer for Mcdonnell/Douglas and Boeing for many years and I can tell you a lot of horror stories about Chinese quality. The first 25 noses for the 717 were built in China (CAAC) and required more hours to correct than they were worth. We went to Hyundai Heavy Industries and these guys were fantastic and knew their stuff. I had nightly phone calls with China and Korea and you could really tell the difference. Taiwan is where you pay by the quality level (tolerances)you desire.