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Home Built EI Help

K

Kevin in MN

Member
I built an electronic ignition to use a ford reluctor and pickup and an HEI module. Worked great on the bench. My first install attempt I warmed up the tractor made sure it was running good then shut down and swapped the points distributor for the EI one. It started right up but timing was off more than I could adjust out. That was a week ago. In the mean time I pulled the distributor and rotated the reluctor on the shaft to get the timing closer. Yesterday I reinstalled on cold tractor and now I have no spark from the coil. I pulled the distributor and if I spin the shaft I get good spark. Reinstalled again no spark. All I can think of is the distributer rpm’s in a cold engine are too slow to get a good pulse to the module? Any ideas?



 
Kevin, I've done the same conversion with a number of vehicles, and it usually works well.

Some things to try...

1. Set the air gap CLOSE.

2. Reverse the wires from the pickup coil and see if that improves triggering at low speeds.

3. Check for a short to ground from the pickup coil.

4. Since you have a cutaway cap installed, I ASSUME you have verified spark occurs when the rotor tip is next to a high-tension terminal?
 
(quoted from post at 11:29:27 10/05/14) Kevin, I've done the same conversion with a number of vehicles, and it usually works well.

Some things to try...

1. Set the air gap CLOSE.

2. Reverse the wires from the pickup coil and see if that improves triggering at low speeds.

3. Check for a short to ground from the pickup coil.

4. Since you have a cutaway cap installed, I ASSUME you have verified spark occurs when the rotor tip is next to a high-tension terminal?
Click to expand...
hen on tractor, if looking for spark from coil , then this doesn't apply, but if looking for spark from plugs, it does. Are you turning distributor in same direction on bench as it turns on tractor?
 
(quoted from post at 13:40:37 10/05/14)
(quoted from post at 11:29:27 10/05/14) Kevin, I've done the same conversion with a number of vehicles, and it usually works well.

Some things to try...

1. Set the air gap CLOSE.

2. Reverse the wires from the pickup coil and see if that improves triggering at low speeds.

3. Check for a short to ground from the pickup coil.

4. Since you have a cutaway cap installed, I ASSUME you have verified spark occurs when the rotor tip is next to a high-tension terminal?
Click to expand...
hen on tractor, if looking for spark from coil , then this doesn't apply, but if looking for spark from plugs, it does. Are you turning distributor in same direction on bench as it turns on tractor?
Click to expand...

Yep, same direction. I'm pretty sure its an RPM issue. I watched the rotor go arount without the cap off to make sure it was going arount and i was suprized how slow it was. So I'll try tightening up the air-gap and see what that does.
 
(quoted from post at 22:10:34 10/05/14) 6 or 12 volts? Maybe the voltage gets too low when using the starter.
Click to expand...
or 12? What the h311 KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT??!! Did you read the whole thread? That is an HEI GM module! Never was a 6v ! Sheesh! As Dell would say.
 
(quoted from post at 20:32:17 10/05/14)
Do you know how to test the module to see if it will fire the coil...
Click to expand...

sure, but spinning the distributor off the engine produces a nice blue spark from the coil. Unfortunately I didn’t build any adjustment into the pickup so I need to gut and do some grinding. And of course like any good project its 65 miles away from my shop.
 

they do, and i hear it's good. I can't eat it anymore.. but used to.[/quote]

If they still made Bunker Hill Beef and gravy I would dump the Spam... I eat Spam a few times a year just cuzz its different...
 
(quoted from post at 10:39:31 10/05/14) I built an electronic ignition to use a ford reluctor and pickup and an HEI module. Worked great on the bench. My first install attempt I warmed up the tractor made sure it was running good then shut down and swapped the points distributor for the EI one. It started right up but timing was off more than I could adjust out. That was a week ago. In the mean time I pulled the distributor and rotated the reluctor on the shaft to get the timing closer. Yesterday I reinstalled on cold tractor and now I have no spark from the coil. I pulled the distributor and if I spin the shaft I get good spark. Reinstalled again no spark. All I can think of is the distributer rpm’s in a cold engine are too slow to get a good pulse to the module? Any ideas?



Click to expand...

I know that you are thinking that if spun faster, it is ok. I might be off base here, but it seems to me that the magnetic path (believe green loop) might not like a metal barrier (red circled) in the path....might attenuate signal. You say you have done several before....did any have such a barrier in mag path?
 
(quoted from post at 10:39:31 10/05/14) I built an electronic ignition to use a ford reluctor and pickup and an HEI module.
Click to expand...
I'm no guru on electrical (or anything else) but that's an impressive [i:8dbaa3f718]homemade[/i:8dbaa3f718] set-up.
I did have a 77 Chevy truck that used the module above B+ & it was intermittent in firing. It might or might not work for no apparent reason. Drove me nuts for months til someone happened along with a similar problem. Replaced it & drove it for another 15 years.
I always thought they were all or nothing.
 
I know that you are thinking that if spun faster, it is ok. I might be off base here, but it seems to me that the magnetic path (believe green loop) might not like a metal barrier (red circled) in the path....might attenuate signal. You say you have done several before....did any have such a barrier in mag path?
Click to expand...

No I've never done before somebody else said they did.
The pickup portion is circled in yellow. The more I research the more I read low rpm start may be not a resolvable issue. Thats why petronix uses a hall effect pickup and most small engine use a magneto based ignition.



 
This picture, along with the accompanied dialogue, tells me that Kevin has put much research and effort into this project. Very nice and such a neat idea!
Please keep us posted on your progress!



That said, JMOR may be on to something. He said, “the magnetic path (believe green loop) might not like a metal barrier (red circled) in the path....”. That black mount held down by two screws is a magnet, yes?




Hoping you all the luck,
whopist
 
"That black mount held down by two screws is a magnet, yes? "
With about 99.44% certainty, I say yes, which was reason for my statement & illustration. I have never seen any literature showing the magnetic path, but to me it looks like it would be as I show. It certainly won't be via the aluminum distributor housing. Possibly via breaker plate-shaft-rotor?.......but doubtful, as that would be an incredibly large air gap from plate hole edge to shaft!
 
(quoted from post at 11:06:01 10/06/14)
do you remember scrapple?
Click to expand...

Soundguy, we just sent 6 hogs off to Disney yesterday, fresh scrapple will be had here this weekend for breakfast if not more.

2014-10-07104821_zpsf35cf28e.jpg
[/img]
 
(quoted from post at 09:58:56 10/08/14) "That black mount held down by two screws is a magnet, yes? "
With about 99.44% certainty, I say yes, which was reason for my statement & illustration. I have never seen any literature showing the magnetic path, but to me it looks like it would be as I show. It certainly won't be via the aluminum distributor housing. Possibly via breaker plate-shaft-rotor?.......but doubtful, as that would be an incredibly large air gap from plate hole edge to shaft!
Click to expand...

Here is a better picture of this type of pickup, the actual pickup where the air gap is messured is in the middle of the blue "coil". I have found some spec saying at idle I should be getting about .6V pulse.
84661_full.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 21:15:20 10/08/14)
(quoted from post at 09:58:56 10/08/14) "That black mount held down by two screws is a magnet, yes? "
With about 99.44% certainty, I say yes, which was reason for my statement & illustration. I have never seen any literature showing the magnetic path, but to me it looks like it would be as I show. It certainly won't be via the aluminum distributor housing. Possibly via breaker plate-shaft-rotor?.......but doubtful, as that would be an incredibly large air gap from plate hole edge to shaft!
Click to expand...

Here is a better picture of this type of pickup, the actual pickup where the air gap is messured is in the middle of the blue "coil". I have found some spec saying at idle I should be getting about .6V pulse.
84661_full.jpg
Click to expand...
understand. The question is, where is the completed magnetic path that is made & broken as the rotor passes the center of the blue coil? Magnetic path is analogous to an electrical circuit, i.e., a loop. The whole affair is a tiny electric generator & the higher the magnetic field (better the magnetic coupling) & the faster the field is made & broken, the higher the output voltage.
 

Picked up sum Bacon Spam tonite... Just in case its not to my like'n I also got 3lbs of bacon, a pound of Neese's sausage a pack of Jessie Jones hot dogs and 7 thin cut pork chops... That should hold me for a week... By the end of next week what comes my end I spec it will be scrapple...
 

Hobo.... hope you checking your cholesterol levels. That's enough to send Paula Dean into a tail spin!

I wanna keep enjoying ur writing here.
 
(quoted from post at 20:58:10 10/11/14)
Hobo.... hope you checking your cholesterol levels. That's enough to send Paula Dean into a tail spin!

I wanna keep enjoying ur writing here.
Click to expand...

I could tell you what they were but trowed the doc's letter in the trash can along with a prescription for cholesterol med's...

Best I remember total 175,,, bad 135, good whats left... I had got those numbers down considerably but that's no way to live.... Bird meat,,, yuck!

Pork the other white meat yum yum....
 
Kevin, have you made any progress?

Here are some things to consider:


"Here we go! "Phasing" is the term I was looking for. I was trying to imagine what effect the different positions of the relutor, rotaionally speaking, would have on firing. So in a nutshell, the distributor itself in operational condition, as a whole, setting on a bench, is "timed" sort of speak.

The reluctor has to be placed in a certain location. rotationally speaking, on the distributor shaft in order for everything to work properly. Sounds like a critical setting."

Pasted from <http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87117&page=7>


"The difference is how the ignition module uses the signal generated by the pickup.
Some use the leading edge of the signal and others may use the trailing edge.

By reversing the wires you will change the polarity of the signal."

Pasted from <http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87117&page=20>
 
(quoted from post at 20:20:59 10/11/14) Kevin, have you made any progress?

Here are some things to consider:


"Here we go! "Phasing" is the term I was looking for. I was trying to imagine what effect the different positions of the relutor, rotaionally speaking, would have on firing. So in a nutshell, the distributor itself in operational condition, as a whole, setting on a bench, is "timed" sort of speak.

The reluctor has to be placed in a certain location. rotationally speaking, on the distributor shaft in order for everything to work properly. Sounds like a critical setting."

Pasted from <http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87117&page=7>


"The difference is how the ignition module uses the signal generated by the pickup.
Some use the leading edge of the signal and others may use the trailing edge.

By reversing the wires you will change the polarity of the signal."

Pasted from <http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87117&page=20>
Click to expand...

Yep phasing was an issue and polarity is a big part of that. And of course it’s even more difficult on an engine without timing marks. I had put a timing mark referencing the time of the engine on points. I had the phasing close enough for it to start and run on an a warm engine, but I was 20deg off on timing, so I needed to move the reluctor to get it closer. My tractor is in a pole building I have on property in Wi that we visit on weekends. So on my next trip I reinstalled the modified the distributor on a cold engine and no start. Checking further I actually had no spark from the coil. I removed the distributor and I found could get spark by spinning the rotor by hand. And that’s where I sit. For some reason I didn’t bring the distributor back with me but it looks like I need to get the air gap as tight as possible so I can get a pulse at lower RPM. Hopefully next weekend’s project.
 
(quoted from post at 19:16:16 10/11/14)
(quoted from post at 20:58:10 10/11/14)
Hobo.... hope you checking your cholesterol levels. That's enough to send Paula Dean into a tail spin!

I wanna keep enjoying ur writing here.
Click to expand...

I could tell you what they were but trowed the doc's letter in the trash can along with a prescription for cholesterol med's...

Best I remember total 175,,, bad 135, good whats left... I had got those numbers down considerably but that's no way to live.... Bird meat,,, yuck!

Pork the other white meat yum yum....
Click to expand...

Heck you're doing much better than me. I've been averaging 245 for the last five years. Last checking 165 is the bad.

As far as birds I'm with you I've never eaten anything that ever Had feathers or ever flew. Can't stand the smell or the taste.
I can take or leave beef. But I live for big pork roast.
 
It is alive!

Took a little time to get back to it but I tightened up the air gap to almost nothing and I got a nice ½ volt pulse even at a very slow hand revolution. Put the distributor back on the tractor and it started right up. I must be close in the timing as it starts and idles well. I’d still like to figure out TDC and get the timing perfect but the hard part is over!


Kevin
 
(quoted from post at 05:35:02 11/07/14) It is alive!

Took a little time to get back to it but I tightened up the air gap to almost nothing and I got a nice ½ volt pulse even at a very slow hand revolution. Put the distributor back on the tractor and it started right up. I must be close in the timing as it starts and idles well. I’d still like to figure out TDC and get the timing perfect but the hard part is over!


Kevin
Click to expand...

TDC

Remove the spark plugs...
Make a pin that will go down a spark plug hole long enuff it sticks out of the spark plug hole. The plug will hit the top edge of the intake and exhaust valve in thatcylinder...

Get # one cyl set to were its on compression stroke,,, install the pin in # 4 spark plug hole (7/16 bolt)... Bring #1 up to TDC when the pin is at its lowest point #1 will be at TDC #4 will be at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke (exhaust valve closing intake vale opening) ... This is called beginning on the rock are valve overlap... I eye ball it and can get it within a few degrees....

If you understand were the valves should be on the middle cylinder of the firing order when #1 cylinder is is at TDC you can time most any engine no timing marks needed...

Viedo in this post..
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1066789&highlight=rock

Some copy and paste from other post I have made..

An old trick to see if valve timing is right on or (on the rock) would be to remove the head or lifter cover and bring #1 cyl up to compression stroke. While you are rotating the engine coming up on #1 TDC, #4 should be on overlap exhaust valve closing, intake valve opening) on the rock move the crank either way and a valve will move. This should happen right on TDC #1. If a valve on #4 is wide open or doing nothing at all, the valve timing is off... weather it's the cam gear . crank, gear or key way, broken cam, etc. The reason # 4 is the cyl in question is because that is the "middle" cyl in the firing order 1-2-4-3. The "middle cyl should always be in overlap (on the rock). for instance, on a chevy the firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2, so if we wanted to see if the valve timing was off we would look at cyl# 6 to see if it was on overlap rolling the engine over to #1 TDC. It should overlap right at #1 TDC at 0 degrees.

The Middle cyl is also known as the companion cyl... On The companion cyl the piston will be in the same place as its companion.. Gonna use the chebby firing order first to find companion cyl...... 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 wirte the first four down and put the next four under it

1-8-4-3
6-5-7-2

1/6 are companion cyl as is 8/5, 4/7 and 3/2

Lets do a N

1-2-4-3

1-2
4-3

1/4 are companion cyl

Learn this and you can time most any engine no rimming marks needed.. Find TDC and make your TDC mark on the crank pulley... With a light you can adjust the timing on a front mount with the engine running....
 

Fantastic, nice to hear of your success.

Finding Top Dead Center:
If the cylinder head is removed you can place a positive stop on the deck over piston #1. Gently turn the crankshaft until the piston touches the positive stop and mark the crankshaft pulley’s position. Now gently turn the crankshaft in the opposite direction until the piston touches the stop again and place another mark at the same block point. You now have two marks on the pulley about an inch or so apart. (TDC is in the center of those two marks.)
If head is installed you might be able to place something through the sparkplug hole to use as a positive stop?


NOW, we need component: list, pictures, and assembly notes for the Kevin HEI!


I see Hobo already shared his knowledge, great!
 
"If head is installed you might be able to place something through the sparkplug hole to use as a positive stop?"

Please see the "?"

Stay away from the valves!
Might weld a nut to a welding rod and bend it "L" shaped and try to carefully slip it in. You must also be able to remove it upon completion.

PS:
I would disconnect battery cable before starting attempting this. Don't want to engage the starter!
 

I’ll give the cylinder #4 valve idea a whirl as it seems simple enough. But I’m thinking.... I do have this nifty point timing jig (I apologize to who’s ever image I borrowed). That puts the distributor in the exact firing position. So if I bolted the jig to the front of the engine and made a piece of bar stock to line the cam up I should be at the exact timing spot I’m looking for. I’ll have to check a distributor to see what cylinder the rotor is pointing at and I should have it. Right?

 
Right? MAYBE CLOSE BUT NOT RIGHT maybe not close at all... That does not guarantee the reluctor and Pickup/Stator is timed...

You may bolt yer jig up then wire it up to your board, move the point plate till you see the voltage at C- move from battery voltage to 0 v's (are 1/2 a volt) ... Nail the plate there... You could probably do it at G but I don't know what the voltage should be...

I found it to much to manage by my self so found TDC and used a timing light...
 
(quoted from post at 22:22:15 11/07/14) Right? MAYBE CLOSE BUT NOT RIGHT maybe not close at all... That does not guarantee the reluctor and Pickup/Stator is timed...

You may bolt yer jig up then wire it up to your board, move the point plate till you see the voltage at C- move from battery voltage to 0 v's (are 1/2 a volt) ... Nail the plate there... You could probably do it at G but I don't know what the voltage should be...

I found it to much to manage by my self so found TDC and used a timing light...
Click to expand...
tating the same in different words, I guess, but the problem with Kevin's approach is the we do not know the exact reluctor to stator position that the coil fires. I think this leaves you to finding TDC (Hobo has explained the "on the rock" procedure & how to feel the I/Ex valves through the spark plug hole) & using a timing light to set. It works, BTDT.
P.S. For what it is worth, I believe that your jig/cam position idea will yield TDC-compression for #3
 

>>P.S. For what it is worth, I believe that your jig/cam position idea will yield TDC-compression for #3
Thanks. I think it will give 5 deg btdc. (I read somewhere the front mount timimng is 5deg tdc)

Using the jig on the engine should give me the mechinal timing reference that I need to hit with the timimg light by making adjustments to the reluctor/pickup.

So when I get back there I will do both Mark the #1 tdc from #4 cylinder valve close in one color and the #3 timming reference from the jig in another color. If I'm correct I should see a 5deg difference but I will have to move the timing light pick up from 1 to 3 to see each mark.

results to follow.....
 
(quoted from post at 09:48:52 11/08/14)
>>P.S. For what it is worth, I believe that your jig/cam position idea will yield TDC-compression for #3
Thanks. I think it will give 5 deg btdc. (I read somewhere the front mount timimng is 5deg tdc)

Using the jig on the engine should give me the mechinal timing reference that I need to hit with the timimg light by making adjustments to the reluctor/pickup.

So when I get back there I will do both Mark the #1 tdc from #4 cylinder valve close in one color and the #3 timming reference from the jig in another color. If I'm correct I should see a 5deg difference but I will have to move the timing light pick up from 1 to 3 to see each mark.

results to follow.....
Click to expand...
WIW, FO-4 shows zero for front mount & 4 deg for side mount.
 
(quoted from post at 17:48:52 11/08/14)
>>P.S. For what it is worth, I believe that your jig/cam position idea will yield TDC-compression for #3
Thanks. I think it will give 5 deg btdc. (I read somewhere the front mount timimng is 5deg tdc)

Using the jig on the engine should give me the mechinal timing reference that I need to hit with the timimg light by making adjustments to the reluctor/pickup.

So when I get back there I will do both Mark the #1 tdc from #4 cylinder valve close in one color and the #3 timming reference from the jig in another color. If I'm correct I should see a 5deg difference but I will have to move the timing light pick up from 1 to 3 to see each mark.

results to follow.....
Click to expand...

With the ignition pick up you have its gonna be a guess using the jig... The info I gave is stewed because I was thinking of a Hall Effect switch... I doubt it will produce a signal in a static position and even if it did is it on the leading edge are trailing edge... Find TDC life will be good...
 

I think you missed my point, yes using the jig on the ei distrubutor is useless. But on a points dist it puts the point of fire at tdc, so using it in the engine should put it at that same position. Then I can make a mark to hit with the timming light when adjusting the ei dist.
 
(quoted from post at 23:35:36 11/08/14)
I think you missed my point, yes using the jig on the ei distrubutor is useless. But on a points dist it puts the point of fire at tdc, so using it in the engine should put it at that same position. Then I can make a mark to hit with the timming light when adjusting the ei dist.
Click to expand...

I think you are understood there is just one little final step that would make your deal real sweet...True TDC.... It would take the looking over your shoulder out of the ordeal if you have issues....

Looking back always seams to bite ya :cry:
 

Finding TDC is not that hard to do don't wimp out like most do go for it... There are enuff here that whip out on most every repair and are so proud of it they preach it... Lead are become a follower...
 
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