NO SLEVEES IN 1952 8N

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
I FOUND OUT THERE IS NO SLEEVES IN MY ENGINE.NEVER HAD ANY.I NEED TO KNOW WHAT I NEED TO DO TO HONE THE CYLINDERS FOR NEW RINGS OR PISTONS OR TO MIC THEM.
 
I would take it to an engine shop and have it checked for size, if it already over size they may be able to make oversize sleeves .
 

"NEVER HAD ANY." I guess this tractor engine has been in your constant possession since 1952? Never knew of any coming out of factory sleeveless?
 
I definitely had sleeves when new.

In the past, someone removed the sleeves during a rebuild and installed oversized pistons in the parent bore. At one time, this was not uncommon.

Dean
 
When I opened up my 1950 8N the pistons were running without sleeves too. My machine shop said no problem, we'll bore for oversized sleeves. Once we got the block tanked, it was cracked with no hope of repair. But dealing with bores was every day stuff for the machine shop. I would talk to a good machine shop.
 
I MIC THE BORE AND IT IS 3.185.THE FACTORY BORE IS 3.187.THE PISTONS ARE ALL FACTORY PISTONS.FORD
MADE.THE INTAKE VALVES SAY FORD ON THEM.EVERY THING ON THE ENGINE SAYS FORD 8N-B,BUT NO SERIAL NUMBER ON ENGINE BLOCK BEHIND THE OIL FILTER.THIS IS A SIDE ANGLE DISTIBUTOR.THERE IS NO RIDGE OR SIGN THAT THERE WAS SLEEVES.
 
I BOUGHT THE TRACTOR IN 2001.IT WAS SOLD TO ME AS A 8N FORD TRACTOR.IT SMOKED AT THE TIME.IT RAN GOOD,BUT SMOKED.I DECIDED TO GET INTO IT TO SEE IF VAVES OR RINGS WERE PROBLEM .
 

My uncle farmed with an 8N, at the first overhaul he had them install oversize pistons without the sleeves. I remember my dad asking him about the extra power - I was just a kid. I wanted dad to have our 8N done but ours was years away from needing an overhaul.

You will need to measure the bore wear and determine what is required. To go back to standard size pistons (3.188" diameter) you would need to install new (oversize) sleeves. I have not used them but I believe pistons from a flathead V8 should work in the tractor engine. They are available in oversizes up to 3.375". Ross and Egge used to manufacture the oversizes for the V8. Perhaps someone could comment on these pistons...?
 
THANK GOD SOME ONE ANSWERED MY QUESTION.
THANK YOU.
WERE AT IN INDIANA.I AM FROM MICHIGAN CITY-CROWN POINT.NOW IN MOUNTAIN HOME ARKANSAS.
 
(quoted from post at 10:27:05 08/27/14) I have a 52 that did not have sleeves either nor harden valve seats :cry: I had it sleeved and harden seats installed... I believe it had the engine replace with a industrial engine... I still have it will have to look if it has a serial number cuzz I don't remember...

edit

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=566659&highlight=industrial

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=367819&highlight=industrial

The 8n I rebuilt a couple of years ago has an industrial engine in it. It was a side mount block with a magneto running off the cam like a front mount. No serial number in usually place, but it HAD a data plate on top of the bell housing. Will have to see if I can find the plate, but I do not remember seeing a serial number on it. It had the 040 sleeves in it and I put new 040 sleeves back in it.
 
I TRUST YOU DEAN,BUT HOW DO YOU MAKE SOMETHING SMALLER WITHOUT ADDING TO IT.WHAT IS THE BORE OF THE CYLINDER WITH THE .040-.090 SLEEVE IN THE CYLINDER AND WHAT WILL BE THE SIZE OF THE PISTON.
OVERSIZE DOES THIS MEAN LARGER.
 
(quoted from post at 08:56:17 08/27/14) I TRUST YOU DEAN,BUT HOW DO YOU MAKE SOMETHING SMALLER WITHOUT ADDING TO IT.WHAT IS THE BORE OF THE CYLINDER WITH THE .040-.090 SLEEVE IN THE CYLINDER AND WHAT WILL BE THE SIZE OF THE PISTON.
OVERSIZE DOES THIS MEAN LARGER.

The stock piston is 3.1875
The bore in the block for .040 wall sleeves is 3.2675
The bore in the block for .090 wall sleeves is 3.3675.


If you are talking to a machinist oversize means larger and undersize means smaller. For example:[list:fc79702f39][*:fc79702f39]When you grind the crankshaft journals they are undersize and you use an undersize bearing.[*:fc79702f39]When you bore an engine block the bore is oversize and you install an oversize piston.[/list:u:fc79702f39]You reduce the size of a bore by installing a sleeve. In the case of an N-series where the original sleeves were removed and the engine was run with oversize pistons in the sleeveless block bore the block bore becomes worn oversize and the stock sleeves will no longer fit tight. In that case you install an oversize sleeve in the blcok (larger OD than a stock sleeve). The oversize sleeve used has the same ID as a stock sleeve (3.1875) - e.g. it has a thicker wall than a stock sleeve. Now stock pistons can once again be used in the engine.


TOH
 
Mercury pistons fit in the 8N engine without sleeves. Mercury pistons were larger diameter than Fords. Possibly get Mercury oversize pistons if needed.

8N I have has been running pistons in the block since 1965 without overhaul. Still does not use oil and it has been used...
 
Well I don't know about answering your question - I was not aware there was an industrial engine without sleeves.

Yes I know where Michigan City is. I am about 80 miles West.
 
(quoted from post at 21:26:45 08/27/14) Well I don't know about answering your question - I was not aware there was an industrial engine without sleeves.

Apparently Ford didn't know about them either ;-) Here is the description from the [i:076560747f][u:076560747f]Ford 4 Cylinder Industrial Engine Manual, copyright 1949[/u:076560747f][/i:076560747f]

[i:076560747f]The Ford 4 cylinder engine is of the L-head type having all cylinders and the upper half of the crankcase cast in one piece. Steel cylinder sleeves are used, which are easily replaced when rebuilding the engine.[/i:076560747f]

TOH
 
That is interesting. I was at an auction this spring and there was a 8N with a mag on it. I was looking at it when some other guys came up. One indicated it was an industrial engine that was swapped in. If they were swapping them into tractors they must have been available as surplus/cheap at one time.

Do you know what application the engines were used for? Perhaps that would provide some insight. For example; maybe some type of limited use throw away military application...one time order...? Or, could that engine have been for the Ford jeep....?
 
I have an 8n with a industrial engine in it. One key would be if it was set up for a mechanical fuel pump or not! Mine is not.
I like the magneto! turn off the fuel and walk away!
 
(quoted from post at 11:25:18 08/28/14) That is interesting. I was at an auction this spring and there was a 8N with a mag on it. I was looking at it when some other guys came up. One indicated it was an industrial engine that was swapped in. If they were swapping them into tractors they must have been available as surplus/cheap at one time.

Do you know what application the engines were used for? Perhaps that would provide some insight. For example; maybe some type of limited use throw away military application...one time order...? Or, could that engine have been for the Ford jeep....?

Here are a couple pages from teh Industrial Engine Manual that might help. In addition to the 120 CID L-head engine industrial versions of the 226 CID, 239 CID, 254 CID, and 337 CID engines were also available.

TOH

IndustrialUses.jpg


IndustrialUses_1.jpg
 
THANK YOU FOR THE INFO.SO FORD DID HAVE TRACTORS MADE WITH SLEEVE LESS ENGINE OR SOMEONE PUT ONE IN THIS 8N TRACTOR.I WONDER WAY.I CONTACTED A COMPANY HOWARD ENTERPRIZES. THEY SAID THEY CAN GET ME PISTONS AND RINGS IF I NEED THEM.I NEED TO HONE AND CUT THE RIDGE TO GIVE THEM MEASUREMENTS TO SEE IF I CAN USE MY OLD PISTONS AND NEW RINGS OR IF I NEED OVERSIZE. THANK YOU AGAIN.
 
(quoted from post at 14:32:49 08/28/14) THANK YOU FOR THE INFO.SO FORD DID HAVE TRACTORS MADE WITH SLEEVE LESS ENGINE OR SOMEONE PUT ONE IN THIS 8N TRACTOR.I WONDER WAY.I CONTACTED A COMPANY HOWARD ENTERPRIZES. THEY SAID THEY CAN GET ME PISTONS AND RINGS IF I NEED THEM.I NEED TO HONE AND CUT THE RIDGE TO GIVE THEM MEASUREMENTS TO SEE IF I CAN USE MY OLD PISTONS AND NEW RINGS OR IF I NEED OVERSIZE. THANK YOU AGAIN.

Ford made sleeveless version sof SOME of theri engines but not the te 120 CID L-head. If the pistons in your L-head are not 3.1875 the engine has been modified from stock - likely by removing the factory sleeves and running oversize pistons in the sleeveless block. If that is the case you would be well advised to take the engine to an automotive machine shop that is equipped to deal with the non-standard dimensions.

TOH
 

It's interesting that Ford never made any of those side distributor industrial 8N blocks without sleeves. By the bore measurements provided, the original poster has one. Hobo definitely had one. I've had 2 of them pass through here. We must all be too stupid to know they don't exist.
 
(quoted from post at 20:31:31 08/28/14)
It's interesting that Ford never made any of those side distributor industrial 8N blocks without sleeves. By the bore measurements provided, the original poster has one. Hobo definitely had one. I've had 2 of them pass through here. We must all be too stupid to know they don't exist.

Well I try to be cautious about this sort of thing:

If the pistons in your L-head are not 3.1875 the engine has been modified from stock - likely by removing the factory sleeves and running oversize pistons in the sleeveless block.
It seems I missed the post where he said he measured the block bore at 3.185 :oops:

The industrial engine manual I cited has no information on side distributor models. To your knowledge was the sleeveless block production limited to side distributor industrial models and where they all sleeveless?

TOH
 
I JUST MIC ALL 4 pistons AND THEY ARE AS FOLLOW
#1--3.180.5
#2--3.187.5
#3--3.180
#4--3.185
they all were measured at the rod connecter.it was done by a ditial caliper.
what can you tell me now.
 
(quoted from post at 10:17:11 08/29/14) I JUST MIC ALL 4 pistons AND THEY ARE AS FOLLOW
#1--3.180.5
#2--3.187.5
#3--3.180
#4--3.185
they all were measured at the rod connecter.it was done by a ditial caliper.
what can you tell me now.

They appear to be standard pistons with lots of wear on #1 and #3. You need at least two new ones and if it were me I would replace all four. The stock pistons sold here and at other suppliers should work just fine if you go that route.

The other thing to check is the block bores and you will need a good bore gauge or inside mic to do that accurately. Based solely on the piston wear I would be surprised if there was not significant wear on the block. Since the block is sleeveless that would mean a rebore and OEM type sleeves to return it to the stock piston bore or a rebore and oversize pistons running directly in the block. The OEM type sleeve kits are dirt cheap and would probably be the least expensive solution. Plus the engine would be "standard" if it needs to rebuilt again down the road although that may not be a concern for you ;-) Either way it is a job best left to an automotive machine shop.

TOH
 
I had one without sleeves. I knew the person that did it. It was my dad. Wanted to hop it up a bit or save money on the rebuild and removed the steel thin sleeves and used mercury pistons in it. It may have had more power than before the work but always burned oil.

It ran for about 40 years like that. We were too stubborn to do anything about it.



Several years ago I decided to get it right. Took the block to a machine shop that bored the block to accept cast iron sleeves. It has not burned oil since.

One artifact of ever having sleeves may be the area on the top of the block that the sleeves would seat into.

I think anyone looking for more power should find a better scheme.

I still have the mercury pistons in a box somewhere in my pile of "seemed like a good idea at the time" stuff.

I always wondered if anyone would ever be in the same situation and want them, with the disclaimer actual results may vary!
 

Yes, I would be interested in those pistons if you can find them. I run my inventory story on the FISH model (first in still here) so I know how hard it can be to find something you know you have.
 
(quoted from post at 19:32:17 08/31/14)
Yes, I would be interested in those pistons if you can find them. I run my inventory story on the FISH model (first in still here) so I know how hard it can be to find something you know you have.

Well let me start by CMA: I am too young to know first hand what was going on back then but this is an "educated guess" ;-)

I believe you will find they were originally intended for the 1949-1953 239 CID Mercury Flathead V8. That engine had the same 3.188 piston bore as the Ford tractor and the pistons were probably standard OTS .080 oversize service parts. New .080 oversize pistons for that Merc engine can be purchased today - Sealed Power W1003P80 and probably a number of other brands....

TOH
 

Yes, they would need to be at least .080" over to work in an engine with a .040" sleeve delete. I am curious what ring pack and deck height etc. they run in that time frame.

I am aware of various manufacturers who make new pistons for the flat head V-8, however Sealed Power was not on my list. They are made for 3.750" and 4.00" strokes and bore size up to 3.375". Mercurys had a 4.00" stroke as standard in later years, I don't recall if Ford ever offered the longer stroke. That was before my time.
 

I dunno all I do know is I have sold a few N piston and sleeve kits to V8 flathead guys... They call it a cheap way to rebuild a V8...
You make the power in the head you are not going to gain that much with the little increase in CI. and not increase the compression unless the top of the piston increases compression are you do something with the head...

If those pistons have a different top "Pop Tops" then you are getting somewhere...
 
(quoted from post at 15:20:02 08/26/14) I FOUND OUT THERE IS NO SLEEVES IN MY ENGINE.NEVER HAD ANY.I NEED TO KNOW WHAT I NEED TO DO TO HONE THE CYLINDERS FOR NEW RINGS OR PISTONS OR TO MIC THEM.

Is it possible that it does have sleeves and the block was milled ? It could be hard to see , I don't know . Looking from the underside would help .

If there are no sleeves you have some options .

1) Cheapest would be to get it straight bored for .040 pistons . end of story until next rebuild 25 years from now . Under $100 plus pistons which you need anyway . This will not scare the young kid at the machine shop .

2) Second cheapest , get it sleeved with plain sleeves and bored back to standard . Next rebuild would be .040 oversized , again 25 years from now . Not really the way to go . I'd call it about $150 including the sleeves , last time I checked sleeves were $8 wholesale out of Dallas ( it's been a few years )

3) Best bet would be to get it bored and counter bored for the lip with new .090 cast sleeves , but with today's labor rates your probably looking at $250 plus sleeves @ $30 ea .

4) Hone the heck out of it and run it another 10 years . I know this is a taboo subject around here , but when money is an issue you would be surprised how long these motors will run with a sloppy piston . Personally I would rather see one back together and running in fair shape than to see one tore apart . many a men have had good intentions but wound up scraping the whole project .

Biggest concern I have is getting that above the oil level , oil pump rebuilt . It has to suck up oil and a small amount of wear will let the oil drain back down .

What is your budget ? and What do you plan to do with the tractor when it is running again ?
 
(quoted from post at 20:39:19 09/01/14)
Yes, they would need to be at least .080" over to work in an engine with a .040" sleeve delete. I am curious what ring pack and deck height etc. they run in that time frame.

I am aware of various manufacturers who make new pistons for the flat head V-8, however Sealed Power was not on my list. They are made for 3.750" and 4.00" strokes and bore size up to 3.375". Mercurys had a 4.00" stroke as standard in later years, I don't recall if Ford ever offered the longer stroke. That was before my time.

As I said I wasn't even born yet and I have no first hand experience. I only know what I read on the Internet - to wit:

The bore and stroke on the 1939-53 239 CID Ford/Mercury flathead V8 was 3.1875 x 3.750. The Mercury 255 CID stroked version was introduced in 1949 at 3.1875 x 4.000.

Summit Racing lists the Sealed Power W1003P80 pistons at .080 over for use in all of the 3.1875 x 3.750 inch engines - $26 each.

UPC:724956316533
Bore (in):3.268 in.
Bore (mm):83.000mm
Piston Style:Dome, with no valve reliefs
Piston Material:Cast aluminum
Compression Distance (in):1.519 in.
Dome Height (in):0.210 in.
Wrist Pin Style:press-fit or floating
Pin Diameter (in):0.750 in.
Piston Ring Thickness:3/32 in. x 3/32 in. x 3/16 in. x 3/16 in.

I also found a similarly sized Keith Black version of that piston with a compression distance of 1.763 and double the price.

TOH
 
I PLAN ON HONEING THE CYLINDERS CUTTING THE RIDGES THEN MEASUREING THE BORE AND SEE WHAT PISTONS AND RINGS I NEED TO PUT IT BACK TOGETHER AGAIN.I ONLY USE IT TO BUSH HOG MY 5 ACRES.IF IT LASTS ANOTHER 25 YEARS SOMEONE ELSE WILL GET IT AS I AM 76 YEARS OLD NOW.WITH THE WAY THE WORLD IS NOW I DON'T WANT TO LIVE TO BE A 100.
IS THIS A CHEAP PLUS GOOD WAY TO GO.LET ME KNOW
PS WHERE ARE YOU IN ARK.I AM MOUNTAIN HOME.
 

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