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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil?

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Kenneth Bryan

08-23-2014 19:27:24
68.70.211.180



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Gentlemen, I have a'51 8N that I have rebuilt and used 30 Weight oil. I have initiated my first oil change and was wondering if I could use 10W30 in place of the original 30 weight that the manual calls for. Will that be compatible?




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maxwell99

08-25-2014 13:34:24
199.255.64.19



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to Kenneth Bryan, 08-23-2014 19:27:24  
I use shell rotella 15w40 diesel oil in my old tractor and dodge diesel truck.

The old tractor holds better old pressure with this oil and I understand is still has the zinc additive that oils back in the day had to maintain bearing life.



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TheOldHokie

08-25-2014 17:19:05
71.176.182.141



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to maxwell99, 08-25-2014 13:34:24  

maxwell99 said: (quoted from post at 16:34:24 08/25/14) I use shell rotella 15w40 diesel oil in my old tractor and dodge diesel truck.

The old tractor holds better old pressure with this oil and I understand is still has the zinc additive that oils back in the day had to maintain bearing life.


Ah yes - the zinc/ZDDP FUD and misconceptions. Zinc has almost nothing to do with journal bearing protection. They operate in a hydrodynamic mode of lubrication that does not benefit significantly if at all from zinc or phosphorous compounds. It is primarily flat tappet valve lifters and camshaft lobes that are the concern with the lowered levels of zinc and phosphorous mandated by current standards. They operate primarily under boundary mode lubrication conditions that benefit greatly from EP type anti-wear compounds.

The zinc/phosphorous level in many 1950-1960 era oils was generally less than the MINIMUM (600 PPM) mandated by current API SM service class. If you doubt I have a virgin oil analysis of an old MM/MS/DG service class oil sample that shows phosphorous at 482 PPM and zinc at 572 PPM. That ratio is consistent with the use of ZDDP as the anti-wear additive containing those elements. Higher levels of ZDDP were introduced sometime around the 70's. While the increased levels did help limit valve train wear in top of the line specialty "high performance" flat tappet engines of that era the adoption was PRIMARILY intended as an anti-oxidant. ALL of the newer hotter running engines were experiencing increased oil oxidation that caused oil to thicken shortening oil service life and increasing engine deposits.

You REALLY don't need more than 600 PPM to protect a cold running 20 HP low RPM engine with 30# valve spring pressures. An N-series tractor (or even my "sporty" 1962 TR4 roadster) is more than happy at 600 PPM zinc/phosphorous which was typical of 1940's - 1960's formulations and it won't measurably benefit from higher levels. If you are running a 400 HP high performance engine with flat tappet valve spring pressures in the 300-600# range you probably have a real reason for concern with ZDDP levels in modern oils and you may well see increased tappet wear using modern low ZDDP formulations. All of the performance characteristics and the history of ZDDP use I have described are abundantly well documented in a 40+ year long catalog of API and SAE laboratory testing and publications.
TOH

PS> AFAIK Ford never recommended a viscosity grade greater than SAE 30 for the N-series flathead. For sustained ambient temperatures under 90F they recommended SAE 20. For sustained ambient temperatures over 90F they recommended SAE 30. Source: the Ford owner's manual. Oil pressure aside , using SAE 40 in any grade formulation is a waste of very limited horsepower and expensive fuel.
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 10:10:58 08/26/14 7 times.

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TheOldHokie

08-26-2014 04:55:05
71.176.182.141



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-25-2014 17:19:05  
Oops - duplicated post trying to edit :oops:
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 04:55:59 08/26/14.



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TOM N MS

08-24-2014 11:49:51
172.6.29.244



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to Kenneth Bryan, 08-23-2014 19:27:24  
Rotella 15 W 40 or Castrol 10w30 and u are good to go..
This post was edited by Tom N MS at 11:52:11 08/24/14.



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TheOldHokie

08-24-2014 13:43:57
71.176.182.141



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to TOM N MS, 08-24-2014 11:49:51  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

So should I dump the Valvoline Premium 10W30 I am using and switch to Castrol :twisted:

TOH



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TOM N MS

08-24-2014 14:06:24
172.6.29.244



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-24-2014 13:43:57  
NO...



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Tall T

08-24-2014 08:58:45
24.108.15.74



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to Kenneth Bryan, 08-23-2014 19:27:24  
Both your 30 and 10W30 will give you a viscosity of 30 at operating temperature, but the multigrade (10W30) will give you a significantly faster flow at startup.

Multigrade oils have a polymeric chemical in them that thickens with heat. that means that you can start off with a lighter oil for faster flow and as the engine heats up, the polymeric chemical (essential to a multigrade additive package) thickens and offsets the oils natural tendency to thin with heat.

I broke my 1953, 235 cu in engine in with 10W Non-Detergent

as per the book. Non detergent, because the oil filter is not located between the pump and the shaft bearings, but is located on the oil gallery where the oil pressure sender is located. The purpose for non detergent oil in that case was so as to not carry any break-in particulate to the bearings. After breakin' I went to detergent.
T

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TheOldHokie

08-24-2014 09:58:32
71.176.182.141



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to Tall T, 08-24-2014 08:58:45  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Modern refining has gotten to the point where upper tier base oils can acheive 10W30 or better performance without the use of any VI modifiers. A number of oil producers have been blending some high quality synthetic multi-grades without VI modifiers for some time but you will work hard to find out exactly what products are made without them. Your friends at AMSOIL however have been hawking that performance in some of their products for almost a decade. Here is a link to their HD 10w30 that is formulated without any VI modifiers and is approved for API CH-4+/CH-4/SL service category use.
Amsoil HD 10W30

Good stuff but not cheap at $40/gallon

TOH

PS> Just an additional note for those wondering why anyone cares. As I am sure you know the down side to VI modifiers is viscosity loss caused by shear down where, over time, the VI modifiers get destroyed by the shear forces inside the engine and a SAE 10W30 oil can be "sheared down" to SAE 10W20. That was a real problem in the "early years" and got multi-grades a (perhaps deserved) bad rap. But modern VI improvers are vastly more shear stable than the additives used 20 or even 10 years ago. Using high quality VI modifiers in combination with VHVI/UHVI synthetic base stocks today's blenders can produce engine oils with extremely wide viscosity spreads without sacrificing shear stability. To pick one example at random, Mobil 1 SAE 0W40 will easily stay in grade for 10k-15K in most automobile applications. That would have been impossible in 1970....

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Bruce (VA)

08-24-2014 10:05:28
24.125.183.11



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-24-2014 09:58:32  
As usual, great analysis.

Other than unneeded expense, what are your thoughts on using diesel rated oil (10w40 Rotella, to be precise) in:

---- 8N's

---- 134 cid 740 Ford

---- 1929 Ford 4 cyl

---- push lawn mower

---- golf cart

The reason I ask.....the new M-F diesel requires diesel rated oil & I just hate to keep a different brand/weight of oil around here unless there is a specific requirement for that piece of equipment.

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TheOldHokie

08-24-2014 11:18:10
71.176.182.141



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to Bruce (VA), 08-24-2014 10:05:28  

Bruce (VA) said: (quoted from post at 13:05:28 08/24/14) As usual, great analysis.

Other than unneeded expense, what are your thoughts on using diesel rated oil (10w40 Rotella, to be precise) in:

---- 8N's

---- 134 cid 740 Ford

---- 1929 Ford 4 cyl

---- push lawn mower

---- golf cart

The reason I ask.....the new M-F diesel requires diesel rated oil & I just hate to keep a different brand/weight of oil around here unless there is a specific requirement for that piece of equipment.


Rotella T Triple Protection SAE 15-40 is certified API CJ4/CH4/CI4/CI4+/SM/SL/SH/SJ plus a host of OEM (Cat, Mack, Volvo, Cummins, etc.) certs. That pretty much covers all diesel and gasoline automobile engines made to date ;-)

The golf cart, and lawnmower are "unknown quantities" so I'd consult the manuals for their OEM recommendations ;-)

TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 11:22:21 08/24/14.

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soundguy

08-24-2014 15:47:13
107.77.68.50



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-24-2014 11:18:10  
I switched most of my machines to 15w40 a while back. After 17 us treats myself to a new rider mower and weed whacker, no oil mix. Both will take 10w30 thru 15w40, mower will take some 0w oil in cold climates, my tractors gas and oil are on 15w40, save 2 that are on store brand 10w30 sun, my diesel trucks are on valvoline prem blue 5w40 sun. No nor straight engine oils for me, :)

Old case vac even likes multiweight

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Bruce (VA)

08-24-2014 14:02:56
24.125.183.11



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-24-2014 11:18:10  
Tnx much.



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NNP

08-24-2014 06:32:43
66.66.112.196



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to Kenneth Bryan, 08-23-2014 19:27:24  
agree with all.

a modern good multi-grade is what you want.

I prefer diesel engine rated oil in everything.

and since most of my tractor time is in the summer, long hours with the sun blazing down, I like the 15w40 blend on good motors.

(Like old, I will go to the 20w-50 with a tired motor)



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TheOldHokie

08-24-2014 07:10:06
71.176.182.141



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to NNP, 08-24-2014 06:32:43  

NNP said: (quoted from post at 09:32:43 08/24/14) agree with all.

a modern good multi-grade is what you want.

I prefer diesel engine rated oil in everything.

and since most of my tractor time is in the summer, long hours with the sun blazing down, I like the 15w40 blend on good motors.

(Like old, I will go to the 20w-50 with a tired motor)


Be careful. The current love fest with diesel engine oils has been stoked by a lot of mis-informed FUD and ignores some very basic facts.

Diesel engine oils are formulated to address diesel fuel specific performance requirements. Gasoline engine oils are formulated to address a different set of performance requirements. The fuels and operating conditions differ significantly and the two sets of performance requirements do not interchange.

Engine oils that are suitable for use in both gasoline and diesel engines will carry a dual API service classification. Putting a diesel service only oil in a high dollar late model gasoline engine can wind up causing problems that could have been avoided - e.g. sludge/deposit buildup and emissions system related repairs.

TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 07:13:25 08/24/14.

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NNP

08-24-2014 18:43:36
66.66.112.196



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-24-2014 07:10:06  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

TOH,
Thanks

I always look for your answers to oil questions.

I should have been more specific. My 'everything' was referring to all my old tractors and equipment. My only new tractor......IS a diesel :) (non-tier 4, Hobos post finally got me moving and I traded mine in for one of the last non-tier 4 new ones)
My truck calls for 5w-30 automotive gas rated engine oil...so that's what it gets.

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Bruce (VA)

08-24-2014 06:16:14
24.125.183.11



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to Kenneth Bryan, 08-23-2014 19:27:24  
There have been plenty of advances in oil technology since your manual was written 60 years ago. See tip # 6 at the link.



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TheOldHokie

08-24-2014 05:45:50
71.176.182.141



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to Kenneth Bryan, 08-23-2014 19:27:24  
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Do your new engine a favor and use a quality multi-grade oil. Any quality engine oil in an xxW30 or xxW40 grade is fine.

TOH



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Jimmyjack

08-23-2014 20:33:45
216.105.211.153



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to Kenneth Bryan, 08-23-2014 19:27:24  
Yes that will work fine! You may want to change weights depending on where you are located and the temperatures you will be operating at.



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old

08-23-2014 19:40:41
209.86.226.57



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to Kenneth Bryan, 08-23-2014 19:27:24  
I use 20W50 in most of my stuff. I buy the O'Reilly's brand oil since it is in fact Valvoline oil



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bruce werner

08-25-2014 06:57:12
209.182.117.131



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 Re: 30 Weight vs 10W 30 Oil? in reply to old, 08-23-2014 19:40:41  
I sell a lot of Chevron oils, have believed in the quality and what I see in the performance of my own stuff here at my farm. Convenience is nice, but following a builders recommendations is good too, ---usually. My 8-N is in very good shape, I only use it in summer when it"s hot weather. So--I use Chevron Supreme 20W/50, because I bought several cases of it awhile back for a very low price. I let it warm up a couple minutes, and off I go. Holds 38 LBS oil pressure when red hot, no problems at all using 20-50 there.
In 2 cars, we use Chevron Supreme 5w/30, and in car #3 it"s 10w/30. The book says it, so I do it, not any problems at all on these high mileage cars.
In 4 diesels I own, a John Deere 6330, a Dodge Cummins, and a Kubota ZD331 mower, and a John Deere Gator, I use Chevron Delo 400 CJ-4 15W/40. So--there are 4 oils I use. No big problem really. If I were out of 20-50, I would put in the 15-40 if need arose. The cars on 5-30 would be fine on 10-30 if need arose to do that, like being out of oil on change day. But mostly I stick with the book. Your old 8-N would do excellent on Delo or Rotella or Delvac or similar in straight 30 weight Most oils are premium these days, and no one is greatly benefitted using a 40 dollar gallon oil in an 8-N.

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