1944 Ford 2n Doesn't Want to Run

boxrucker4

New User
I recently acquired a non-running 1944 Ford 2n. I replaced the plugs, wires, cap, points, condenser, and ballast resistor, but it still doesn't want to run. It will pop and bang and will run for several seconds but will die. I even tried a different rebuilt carb. What else is there to do? How do I know if the coil is good? What is the firing order?
Thanks, Brandon
 
" How do I know if the coil is good?'

Chances are it's fine.

Coil problems are difficult to diagnose. For starters, round coils are pretty robust & square coils aren’t (because of the difference in insulation used), but neither one will hold up to a poorly done 12v conversion that allows too much current to the coil or leaving the key on (see tip # 38). Too much current creates heat which melts the insulation. Insufficient resistance in a 12v conversion will do the same thing. Rarely do coils just “go bad.”

There are a few ways to see if a coil is bad, but it’s not possible to determine if a coil is good w/o some expensive testing equipment. If you detect a dead short or high resistance in the coil w/ an ohm meter, it’s bad. If it’s cracked, it’s bad. If a sidemount coil w/ battery voltage to the primary will not jump a ¼” gap from the secondary wire to the block, it’s bad. But, here is the hard part: even if you do not detect a short, even if it will produce a spark, even if it’s not cracked, that doesn’t mean the coil will work when it’s hot & under a load. So, it’s a process of elimination. If the tractor starts & runs fine for 30 minutes or an hour then cuts off & refuses to re-start, and you checked for spark at the plugs & it had no spark at all, AND you have the correct voltage at the coil that’s a good sign that you have a bad coil. Let it cool off, restart it & if you have a good spark, odds are it’s a bad coil. But, even then, you might end up w/ a spare coil on the shelf!

Bottom line.......coils do go bad, but I'll venture a guess that 75% of new N coils sold today are sold to folks who do not understand how to diagnose a poor spark problem or how a coil works. So, for those who don’t know any better, in a no spark situation the first suspect is usually the coil……and, more often than not, it isn’t the problem.

Or as one regular around here humorously suggested: "Well, it is like this...I don't know or really understand what that black thing does & I am suspicious of the unknown, so I think the problem is the black thing."

It is important for you to tell us if your tractor has a 6 volt or 12 volt electrical system. The troubleshooting is different based upon the configuration of your engine.

It takes three things for an engine to run: spark at the right time, compression, & fuel/air in the right mixture. For the moment, forget about compression & concentrate on narrowing the problem down to spark or fuel.

There are three very important tools you always need to have in your N tool box: a 3 inch piece of wire w/ alligator clips on each end, a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap (* see below) and a 7/16 box end wrench. (see tip # 50 at the link below) And, you really do need a working ammeter on the tractor; it is a very important diagnostic tool. With these tools, you can quickly narrow down most N problems to spark or fuel.

First, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, hook up your spark checker, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 1/4” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the ¼” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38 )

Next, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem.If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)

There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. A store bought plug checker (in the picture) will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!

Post back with results or more questions.



*If you don’t own a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap, buy one. In the meantime, an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least ¼” will work. Ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine turn the key on & look for a spark.
75 Tips
 
I would like to know how you check the timing. Or change it. I have a 44 2N bought new in May of 44 and also a 41 9N. In all this time I have never found a way to get the timing off. The tang that fits into the cam gear will only go in one way and the holes are not adjustable so the only way to possibly get it off-change it would be with the crank pulled and put in a tooth off and that would also throw the valves off. If there is a way to get the timing off to need to check it would you let me know how to do it. Some say inside distributor a way to change timing but I cannot find it. I was 9 month old when that tractor came to live with me.
 
Brother, all the tang does is make sure a correctly timed distributor is in the correct spot....touching that screw on the points can and will change the timing.....you can reference the IT Shop manual for an description of the process...or even better...just search timing on the forum....it will bring up pictures and tips from previous forays on the topics....pay particular attention to "Bruce(VA)"who has often posted must have pics for a novice and to "theold hokie" who has a great jig to aid in the timing of front mounts......best of luck Chum.....and post back
 
the front dizzy DOES INDEED have a bit of timing adjustment. has nuttin to do with the offset drive tang.
 
Leroy........surprizingly enuff, there is an external timing adjust on the RIGHT side of the weird 4-nipple dizzy. LOOK......it was specifically designed for NO LEAD or low octane white gasoline. Especially important during WW2. Many farms did NOT have electricity so they used "Coleman" gas lanterns with cloth bulbs. And co-incidentally, the low compression 9N-2N tractor engine.

Remember, the front mount dizzy is internally timed to 1/4in per the I&T FO-4 manual. Points are 0.015in........Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister
 
First, check out tip # 39. Timing info is in the I&T FO4 manual. A 70 year old tractor w/ a 70 year old owner needs the manuals!

Yes, you can set the timing on a front mount distributor.

The first thing you need to check when you get the distributor off the tractor is bushing wear. If the shaft has any sideways movement AT ALL, the bushings must be replaced. (see below)

Next, make sure you are using quality points. I use only Wells, Blue Streak or Echlin brand points (* see below). Check the point gap, .015 on all four lobes. And, don’t forget to lube the rubbing block w/ cam lube; not Vaseline, not bearing grease, but cam lube (** see below).

If you are using quality points and cannot get the gap to pen to .015, chances are you need to replace the bushings.

Now, set the timing. Get a meter or test light, a 21/64” drill bit (*** see below) & a metal straight edge. Put the distributor face down w/ the condenser on the left & the timing plate lock screw on the bottom. Look at the end of the shaft: it has a narrow side & a wide side. Make sure you can tell the difference. Now, place the drill bit in the bottom mounting hole (this will be your reference point for measuring). Next, place a straight edge on the wide side of the tang on the shaft as shown in fig. FO83 in the picture. Rotate the shaft CCW (as viewed from rotor side OR CW as viewed from back/tang side) until the straight edge is ¼" beyond the outside edge of the drill bit you stuck in the distributor mounting hole. At this distance, the distributor points should start to open (get your meter/light out now & check). If not, loosen the timing plate lock screw and turn to advance or retard the timing (move the plate down to advance timing, up to retard). Remember, each one of those little hash marks represents about 4° of timing. Keep adjusting until you get the proper ¼" setting. (if the plate won’t move, you might need to remove the big C clip to loosen it a bit) As you’re adjusting, eliminate backlash by turning the shaft backwards (CW as viewed from the front) and bring the shaft forward (CCW as viewed from the front) to measure your setting. This ¼" setting will get you static timing at top dead center.

As you can see from the picture, this particular distributor needed to have the timing advanced by about 8° (two hash marks) to achieve the ¼” measurement.

After you set the points & timing, do a continuity check before you put the distributor back on the tractor.

Before you start, make sure your meter/light works.

With the distributor still off the tractor, follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Put the coil on the distributor, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!


And finally, do not forget to remove the distributor on an annual basis (more often, depending on use) to check the point gap and re-lube the cam.


* NAPA part numbers:

• Points: FD-6769X
• Condenser: FD-71
• Rotor: FD-104
• Cap: FD-126


** Distributor cam lube:

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Result.aspx?Ntt=ECH+ML1&Ntk=Keyword&Nty=1&Dn=0&D=ECH+ML1&Dk=1&Dp=3&N=0

** Distributor cam lube
http://www.carquest.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subcategory__10151_-1_10651_11340

*** Rather than the drill bit, a jig made by Dan Allen (The Old Hokie) will make this task quicker & more accurate. http://mysite.verizon.net/oldhokie/windyridge/id11.html


There are three ways to replace the bushings in a front distributor:

1. Buy new bushings (part numbers 9N12120 front & 18-12132 rear). Press out the old ones, press in the new ones and ream to fit. CAUTION: do not try this unless you have a press & know how to use it. If you break the base, a new one costs $130. If you bend the tower which holds the front bushing, a new plate will cost you $30.

2. Take the new bushings and distributor to your local machine shop.

3. Send the distributor out for bushing installation.
IMG_20140212_144953_385_zpsd84210ac.jpg

IMG_20140212_144910_554_zps7098b9a8.jpg

timing003.jpg

timing003.jpg

75 Tips
 
The 2n has good spark, and is getting fuel but I did a compression test on it. The #1 cylinder had 117, #2-103, #3-80, and #4-97. Could the tractor run like this? Maybe a stuck valve? Does it need to be rebuilt? What would cause this problem?
Thanks, Brandon
 
You need to do the test over correctly.

What you found doesn't tell us much.

Minimum acceptable pressure is 90 lbs w/ the lowest pressure reading w/in 75% of the highest reading. Run the engine to operating temp, turn it off, remove all 4 plugs, remove the breather hose & make sure the choke and throttle are both open. Crank it at least 5 compression strokes or until the gauge stops moving. Write down the first compression reading (that is the valves seating) then write down the reading after 5 strokes or when it stops increasing. You should have two numbers for each cylinder. Then, add a tablespoon of oil to each cylinder & repeat the process, but you only need the final reading for each cylinder. Write down the results & post back for help figuring out what it all means.
75 Tips
 
I do have 2 different versions of the ITT manual plus the orignal Ford Shop manual. That screw and piece you are showing I have never found. Where on the distributor is it? Could the screw be busted off to be painted over that it can not be seen? And the tractor has been worked on by mechanicks other than me. And all screws I have found do not have any adjustment to them. I do know the plate that the points mount to was replaced 50 years ago. Could that have been made without the adjustment?
 
" I do have 2 different versions of the ITT manual ..."

Check page 58 of the 2002 edition; it has complete instructions for setting the timing.

" And all screws I have found do not have any adjustment to them. "

That's not an adjustment screw.

The plate is held in the distributor w/ a c-clip & a tab on the side; the screw goes through the tab w/ the hash marks & into the tab on the plate.

It could all be covered up w/ dirt & grease.

The plate did not come out 50 years ago w/o removing the screw & timing tab.

If the screw is missing, the plate will rotate. Every time it moves, your timing changes.
75 Tips
 
I just did another compression test today. After getting the engine warm, #1 read 119, #2-102, #3-92, #4-99. When I applied oil #1 read 129, #2-119, #3-119, and #4-105. I was able to get the tractor running for a minute or so, but it would sputter and die if I gave it some throttle. I am using a lawn mower gas tank, would that effect anything?
Thanks, Brandon
 
You must have misunderstood my advice on the compression test.

I said " Crank it at least 5 compression strokes or until the gauge stops moving. Write down the first compression reading (that is the valves seating) then write down the reading after 5 strokes or when it stops increasing. You should have two numbers for each cylinder. Then, add a tablespoon of oil to each cylinder & repeat the process, but you only need the final reading for each cylinder. "

From your results, we do not know if you have a valve problem or not.

Try again.

" I was able to get the tractor running for a minute or so, but it would sputter and die if I gave it some throttle"

Did you check for fuel flow at the carb?

Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem.
75 Tips
 
gotta get rid of that popping, banging stuff first.
Still sounds like a couple wires crossed.
Bruce has a very nice picture of a numbered distributor cap that will leave no doubt.

Your compression is fine for now. It will start and run strong with those numbers.

While I despise front mounts, I will grudgingly admit that Fords
'move the whole points plate' idea to give a little variation in timing, was pretty slick.

Remember your basics.
If it has points, the timing can be changed.
Think of old Kohler engines, where the only timing adjustment is done with the point gap.
too much or too little gap, and you can turn a good Kohler into
a clattering, too much advance, or hot, hot, too retarded...junk
 
Going to try to check things out today. Perhaps the newer manuals have better description-pictures than older ones, my newest would be a early-mid 90's version and earlier would be late 70's? version. Talking to a mechanic friend that has worked on this tractor and he found pictures on computor that show enough where that screw is supposed to be located. He says it does sound like timing is off. Been slow-hard starting for years. Been having no start-die problems for several years, been thru 5 switches in 5 years and finly found that voltage resistor was bad, cutting out.
 
I would definitely do as Bruce(va) says and check fuel and all wires!! ... These can be finicky.. Don't worry we'll get it figured out... Keep us posted!
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top