8n Pertronix EI

I have replaced points in an 8N tractor with front mount distributor multiple times yearly and decided to install EI to eliminate the problems of bad points. After reading all the forum post over the years shown concerning EI installation, I am not sure it is "easy to install" as shown in the order information.

I have rebuilt car engines, replaced steering boxes in the 8N, but I am concerned there may be issues with the EI that would lead to problems that I could not fix since I am not "electrically inclined".

What is the real story on the ease of installation?
Thanks
 
Normally I say it is easy. In other words, it takes the same skills to install EI as it does to properly maintain points..... That said... if you are installing MULTIPLE sets of points per year? Then either you are doing something very, very wrong, or your wireing is bad, or you are buying the 5$ tisco crappy points... or your distribuitor is so worn out that it is eating points and/or can't keep a set gap.

So... lets focus on why you are having to change the points so frequently?

( Note, i'm not telling you NOT to do EI.. I'm saying lets find out if you have any wireing problems or a worn out distribuitor that needs attention first, then.. if you want EI.. I always suggest going 12v neg ground first... )

Once we get that sorted out, what if any, the problems are, then make your decision on EI.
 
Ron........replaced the points multiple times per year??? A set of points should last 10-years. Sheesh!!!

You do know ittza 15-min job to remove the front mount dizzy and change and adjust the points (0.015) on the kitchen table, don't you???

Just un-snapple the capple and letter dangle. Remove the 2-bolts and walk. After installing the points (0.015in), burnish and polish the points by drawing a piece of HEAVY brown grocery sack or cardboard from breakfast cereal box between the closed points. Timing is 1/4-in. Simple, eh?

Now finger start the 2-bolts and then twirl the dizzy rotor until the OFF-SET tang falls into the OFF-SET slot in the cam shaft. Now tighten the 2-bolts and re-snapple the capple. Simple, eh?

I'm NOTTA FAN of electronic ignition for the weird 4-nipple front mount dizzy. The internal electronics quit working at about 5.5-volts. Do you know how much yer starter motor drags down the 6-volt battery volts??? MUCHA DRAG!!!

Now iff'n you have converted to 12-volts with alternator, NOTTA PROBLEM!!!........Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister
 
(quoted from post at 10:07:53 08/19/14) Ron........replaced the points multiple times per year??? A set of points should last 10-years. Sheesh!!!

You do know ittza 15-min job to remove the front mount dizzy and change and adjust the points (0.015) on the kitchen table, don't you???

Just un-snapple the capple and letter dangle. Remove the 2-bolts and walk. After installing the points (0.015in), burnish and polish the points by drawing a piece of HEAVY brown grocery sack or cardboard from breakfast cereal box between the closed points. Timing is 1/4-in. Simple, eh?

Now finger start the 2-bolts and then twirl the dizzy rotor until the OFF-SET tang falls into the OFF-SET slot in the cam shaft. Now tighten the 2-bolts and re-snapple the capple. Simple, eh?

I'm NOTTA FAN of electronic ignition for the weird 4-nipple front mount dizzy. The internal electronics quit working at about 5.5-volts. Do you know how much yer starter motor drags down the 6-volt battery volts??? MUCHA DRAG!!!

Now iff'n you have converted to 12-volts with alternator, NOTTA PROBLEM!!!........Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

Yup not a problem removing that darn thing is you have small hands and GOOD knees. Being blessed with bad knees and big hands I hate the front mount dizzy!

Rick
 
Just to answer your questions without editorializing, I changed to EI in my 12 volt front mount '48 8N. The instructions were OK, a couple of simple steps omitted that I guess "went without saying," though I wanted a full step-by-step to study before I undertook the changeover. If you are good at changing points, you will be fine. The only really "new" things were having to take off the circlip ring that held the whole points/plate assembly in the distributor; which is not necessary when just changing points. The other thing was where to mount the round coil; I ended up using one bolt on the oil filter housing, which works OK but I don't really like it. My cold weather starting improved, though it was always good; it seems like a fuel tank lasts longer when bush-hogging for several hours; and it seems like there is bit more power. All may be wishful thinking....., but I am very satisfied.
 
" I have replaced points in an 8N tractor with front mount distributor multiple times yearly and decided to install EI to eliminate the problems of bad points."

Check out tips 66, 67 & 68.

As others are telling you, you are doing it wrong, you are using junk points or the bushings are worn out in your distributor.

And EI will not work with excessive bushing wear.

So, find the problem before you spend the $$$ to convert it to EI....and still end up w/ a crappy running tractor.

HINT: if the shaft has any lateral movement at all, you need to replace the bushings.
75 Tips
 
You've been pretty good at not spouting off about 12V and EI lately.
You should have let this one go too.
As per Pertronix help line their unit will function long past the point where points would not work because of worn bushings.
 
there are other issues , other than bushing wear that are very likely in play here. Since it IS running. it is likely not catastrophic wear.. but there IS some problem that really should be addressed first.

and heck. why not address bushings too if going in with ei.

in for a penny, in for a pound.

if the goal is to never go back in to the dizzy.. might as well start with NEW bushings.. right?

If the OP is installing multiple sets of points per year.. I'm suspecting either cheap crappy points, bad technique or, most likely, wireing issues resulting in primary ciurrent problems.
 
" You've been pretty good at not spouting off about 12V and EI lately. You should have let this one go too."

So I guess you are now in charge of critiquing my posts?

Now that I've seemed to annoy you, I'll make it a point to do it more frequently.

As to bushing wear, yes, I recall your last attempt to tell us how worn out bushings aren't a problem for EI.

And I recall Hobo's reply:

" A worn out dist is a worn out dist... I like EI but not as a cure for a worn out Dist."

And then JMOR's reply:

" Don't forget that they guy you talk to on the phone works in the business of selling merchandise. Will work isn't the same as claiming jitter free. The unit triggers by proximity of magnet to module. Get yourself a distributor with no shaft play in the bushing, set the air gap to 0.005, connect timing light & take a reading. Change nothing except to open the gap to 0.060.
Take another reading. Compare the two readings. That difference is the amount of timing jitter you will have if your worn distributor shaft is bouncing about between 0.005 & 0.060. It is huge. As I said, satisfy yourself, not a complicated measurement. "

And he also said:

" True enough that the Pertronix unit can "tolerate" quite a gap variance, & still trigger, but.................................................

that ignores the fact that as that worn out bushing/shaft wobbles around, so does the timing. Result is timing variance and jitter all over the place. If you want stable timing with either points or EI, you need a stable shaft/cam/trigger wheel. Range of 0.005 to 0.060 for a STABLE initial setup gap is very different than jumping 0.005 to 0.060 multiple times per revolution or even once per revolution. There are good reasons for wanting EI, but attempting to patch worn out mechanicals with a little module isn't one of them. "

So, one mechanic who likes EI & has no doubt installed a few units......and an EE who has probably forgot more about electronics than you & I ever knew.....both say it's pretty stupid to put an EI unit on a distributor w/ severely worn bushings...and you will take the word of the salesman.

Go for it. And check out the ads section too; I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I just listed.
 
AHHH the great EI debate. I don't have an EI system and can't contribute much to what you are wanting to know. I just wanted to add in with what the other guys are saying that replacing points multiple times a year is ridiculous. I'm using cheaper points, idk what brand or where I got them, and that's because they have been in for at least 2 years. I adjusted them this spring just as pm and haven't thought much about them since. They probably have +/- 60hrs on them.
 

Don't Skeer me go for it... You got stuck with a P.O.S. front mount upgrade it and move on with life...

Some here say they can build a EI others have a degree of some sort to hide behind I dunno what they are Skeered of....

skeered

aka. Scared.

To be afraid or terrified of something or someone.

"y'all actin' all skeered"
 

I didn't read your whole jeremiad. Too long.
But whom would you have a guy trust?
A couple of gurus here who have an axe to grind or a guy who's trying to make an honest living at pertronix?
 
Ron I have owned my 51 8-n nine years, it's still got the same set of echlin points I installed when I bought it. Although I have been hearing bad things about napa electrical parts as of lately. Some guys swear by standard ignition parts. Maybe you use your tractor a lot more than I do. Anyway stay away from tisco and other cheap brands. Dell good to see you back!
 
Installed new bushings and cleaned,lubed,wiped down dist.Three years nowstill sparking along real good.Changed to 12 volt,more better.
 
Ron I did one of my front mount 8N's. Pretty easy. If you can do points all you have to do is follow the directions. Mine are converted to 12 volt and I like it. Next time the other one needs something done with the points it's getting IE too.

Rick
 
Thanks for all the relies. I should have mentioned that my problem is after the tractor sits for awhile. It runs fine with no skips or rough running. I can turn it off and a couple weeks later go out to start it and it will not start. Then I take out the distributor and sometimes just cleaning and setting them will help, other times they have to be replaced and once replaced it runs fine. It also happened when during use I cut off the tractor, came back about 10 minutes later and would not start. cleaned points and ran good. I have no idea whats going on!
 
Ron........sounds like yer BURNING yer points from too much current. This will happen iff'n you "by-pass" the infamous ballast resistor.

Sometimes PO's by-pass the ballast resistor for HOTTER sparkies. The weird 4-nipple square can coil is designed for about 3-volts and the ballast resistor drops the 6-volts to 3-volts for running....BUT....by design, when COLD, the ballast resistor has virtually NO RESISTANCE so the coil gitts almost the full 6-volts of the battery. Ittza LAW, Kirchhoff's Law. As the ballast resistor heats up, its resistance also increases thus reducing the current to the coil thru the points.

Do NOT by-pass the ballast resistor, understand?......Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister
 
" I have no idea whats going on!"

Well, lets see if we can figure that out.

Based upon the additional info, there is a very good chance that it's not your points causing the problem.

But, lets start there.

What do the points look like? Are they burned or pitted?

What is the gap when you check them? Less than .015? How much?

Does the shaft wobble?

What do you use to clean the points?

What brand of points are you using?

Is your tractor 6 volt or 12 volt? If it's 12 volt, what resistors are you using?

Do you use a battery minder on the tractor or does it set for weeks w/o a charger on it?

And finally......

It takes three things for an engine to run: spark at the right time, compression, & fuel/air in the right mixture. For the moment, forget about compression & concentrate on narrowing the problem down to spark or fuel.

There are three very important tools you always need to have in your N tool box: a 3 inch piece of wire w/ alligator clips on each end, a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap (* see below) and a 7/16 box end wrench. (see tip # 50 at the link below) And, you really do need a working ammeter on the tractor; it is a very important diagnostic tool. With these tools, you can quickly narrow down most N problems to spark or fuel.

Next time it won't start, check for spark then fuel. First, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, hook up your spark checker, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 1/4” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the ¼” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38

Next, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem.If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)

There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. A store bought plug checker (in the picture) will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!

Post back with answers to the questions & you will get plenty of help.


*If you don’t own a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap, buy one. In the meantime, an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least ¼” will work. Ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine turn the key on & look for a spark.
75 Tips
 
Oldweldor. Took your advice. Went to NAPA and bought some Echlin. When I installed them, I had to take a burr file and remove some burrs around the hole the post fits through. Shows how much closer in tolerances these are than the ones I have been buying at our large farm implement and tractor parts dealer. Just a few swipes and they fit in very snug. Checked for play in distributor and no discernable play in the bushing, so I think thats good. Put it back together and started right up. So now we will see how long these last until I have to open it up again . Hopefully awhile. Thanks for everyones input. Mpw I will post a question concerning one I have a chance to buy but needs work.
 
" So now we will see how long these last until I have to open it up again ."

IF cheap points were your problem, then you should get 5 years (w/ annual cam lube & gap check) out of those Echlin's.

And, now we all know that bushing aren't the problem as you found no movement in the shaft.

But........

There are other possibilities that could cause premature points failure. If you want to consider those possibilities, then tell us:

What did the old points look like? Are they burned or pitted?

What was the gap when you checked them? Less than .015? How much?

What do you use to clean the points?

Is your tractor 6 volt or 12 volt? If it's 12 volt, what resistors are you using?

Do you use a battery minder on the tractor or does it set for weeks w/o a charger on it?
75 Tips
 

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